2018 regular season thread

[Jedzz]

I don't think I'm asking for perfection at all Hermes. I'm asking for professionals to be professionals. Zimmer isn't a rookie coach or rookie head coach anymore. Shurmur was five fold better calling this offense and did it while Zimmer was here. This OC is yiounger and he's either just bad or he's getting pushed around by a conservative Zimmer.

This team was one game away from a homefield superbowl last season. They added a good QB and he's finally brought a respect level to the passing game we haven't seen in a long time. But these coaches are trying their best to ruin him and this team. They honestly could be unbeaten or have one loss to Rams right now. They way things are going they might be a .500 team when all is said and done.

I do expect the head coach to learn what ebbs and flows of the game are. I expect him to know when they must play with urgency. To understand the other team is determined to cause you to make mistakes and you must play through them. I expect him to know simple things like the fact you can't make up three scores in a 9 minutes by throwing all 4 yard passes in the middle of the field. It is his job to recognize this and tell the OC if he's messing this up. If he's the one causing the OC to do this. He should not be the head coach. I expect him to know the history of offense in this league because he's the head coach. Start rewatching the greats if you don't get it.

Joe Montana never would have been Joe Montana if his head coach and OC forced him to play this way when behind in score. To the sideline, get out of bounds. Get up to the line and throw another one. None of this running on first down stuff late in a game and only taking what the defense offers on a platter. That's not playing to win. You don't take a gift drive from Harry Smith's interception and decide to punt it away after the 1st down draws a penalty. Oh no you don't. There is no excusing that decision.

This is Zimmers 5th season as head coach. The only perfection being expected anymore out of his mistake riddle heading coaching job is the perfection he expects the kickers to have and the offense to play at when he's asking them to play to lose and some how still compete. The only way to possibly do that is to never ever have a mistake happen. That's rarely going to occur. It sure never occurs much for his defense anymore.

This childish kicker act Zimmer and his coaches have problems with drives me nuts. What about your defense Zimmer? What about your inability to know when to challenge a call? Can we doghouse this coach so he can stop holding this team back?

At this point I struggle to accept all the people that are fine with a guy like this running this show. After Shurmur elevated this offense to respectability now we are right back to being stupid on offense.

After the Buffalo loss Kyle Rudolph said that this team does this at least once a year. "what" he's talking about is not showing up to play. That's on the head coach and it's now so typical his own players expect it. The fans expect it now. It's not bad enough to just expect let downs in away games. Now it's at home too.

[Worm Guts]

This team has been on a steady upward trend since Zimmer got here. Last season is the best season we had since probably 1998. Of course Zimmer isn't perfect and makes mistakes, but I think you have to appreciate a coach when you have one, and based on Zimmer's track record, he's a good coach.

[Jedzz]

I's not an upward trend right now.

[Worm Guts]

I's not an upward trend right now.

He took over a 5 win team, and now has 2 division championships along with a 13 win team last year that made the NFC championship. The trend has been very positive. A disappointing half season where we still have won more than we've lost isn't going to change that for me.

[Duke4life831]

Am I the only one that thought we outplayed the Saints? Our D looked really good, we kept one of the best offenses in check for basically the entire game. We moved the ball pretty good as well. I mean the Thielen fumble alone, if that doesnt happen that might have been a game changer. I thought we outplayed them but just made 2 critical errors and the Saints didnt. I took that loss a lot better than say the Buffalo or LA loss where the team and defense just looked clueless.

[Jedzz]

I's not an upward trend right now.

He took over a 5 win team, and now has 2 division championships along with a 13 win team last year that made the NFC championship. The trend has been very positive. A disappointing half season where we still have won more than we've lost isn't going to change that for me.

You are ignoring what he's doing in games which causes losses and keep this team from reaching things such as Home field advantage. Such things help you with success in the playoffs, a situation he's always shown clueless how to coach in. He loses the tough battles because he's afraid of mistakes making him look bad or something. It's insanity. But let's just keep pitching away these games and focus on how well we beat the packer/bears/lions each season. Is that what you are saying?

The trend is downwards because he just showed as a head coach that his clock management is just as bad as his first head coaching year, his offense is chopped off a the knees by him and gutless when they need them to attack most, and they are losing games they should not lose. Duke said it, the defense did enough to stop Drew Brees. The mighty QB that has been making Vikings fans shudder for ages now. They stopped him. The offense even started the game well. It's all about what the Head Coach did to change the team the moment a single turnover occurred.

The defense got their own interception on Brees. That's evening the turnover score right at that moment. What the Vikings needed to do was exactly what the Saints did. Go for the throat and score. They didn't even try. They ran it on 2nd and 25, then pissed down their own leg again on 3rd and 25 to setup a punt. That's exactly how and when Zimmer and Defilippo lost this game. They put an exclamation point on it by throwing away the next 1.5 quarters continuing to play scared and soft trying to avoid more mistakes. What did it cause? More mistakes! You can't cut your leg off to avoid tripping and hope to finish the race strong.

[Worm Guts]

I's not an upward trend right now.

He took over a 5 win team, and now has 2 division championships along with a 13 win team last year that made the NFC championship. The trend has been very positive. A disappointing half season where we still have won more than we've lost isn't going to change that for me.

You are ignoring what he's doing in games which causes losses and keep this team from reaching things such as Home field advantage. Such things help you with success in the playoffs, a situation he's always shown clueless how to coach in. He loses the tough battles because he's afraid of mistakes making him look bad or something. It's insanity. But let's just keep pitching away these games and focus on how well we beat the packer/bears/lions each season. Is that what you are saying?

The trend is downwards because he just showed as a head coach that his clock management is just as bad as his first head coaching year, his offense is chopped off a the knees by him and gutless when they need them to attack most, and they are losing games they should not lose. Duke said it, the defense did enough to stop Drew Brees. The mighty QB that has been making Vikings fans shudder for ages now. They stopped him. The offense even started the game well. It's all about what the Head Coach did to change the team the moment a single turnover occurred.

The defense got their own interception on Brees. That's evening the turnover score right at that moment. What the Vikings needed to do was exactly what the Saints did. Go for the throat and score. They didn't even try. They ran it on 2nd and 25, then pissed down their own leg again on 3rd and 25 to setup a punt. That's exactly how and when Zimmer and Defilippo lost this game. They put an exclamation point on it by throwing away the next 1.5 quarters continuing to play scared and soft trying to avoid more mistakes. What did it cause? More mistakes! You can't cut your leg off to avoid tripping and hope to finish the race strong.

I’m not ignoring anything, I’m looking at the big picture. The team is ultimately defined by wins and losses not yours or my ability find flaws or strategies we disagree with.

[Sedale Threatt]

Am I the only one that thought we outplayed the Saints? Our D looked really good, we kept one of the best offenses in check for basically the entire game. We moved the ball pretty good as well. I mean the Thielen fumble alone, if that doesnt happen that might have been a game changer. I thought we outplayed them but just made 2 critical errors and the Saints didnt. I took that loss a lot better than say the Buffalo or LA loss where the team and defense just looked clueless.

I wouldn't say we outplayed them on the whole, but trying to pinpoint the loss on a conservative coaching decision midway through the second quarter is completely ridiculous.

We forced a turnover after that, and were driving for what could have been a 10-point lead with the ball to start the third quarter when Thielen fumbled to produce a possible 14-point swing. Love Adam, he's probably been our MVP this season, but that was an absolute ball buster. Now, we obviously still had a ton of football even after that. And even then, it was still a one-score game when Cousins and Diggs got crossed up and they got another touchdown out of another turnover.

You're crushed by the math whenever you give up a defensive touchdown, something like 80 or even 90 percent to lose in those instances. When you give up a defensive touchdown after you've already essentially gift them with another TD off a drive you were on the verge of scoring yourself ... that's just incredibly tough to come back from.

We just didn't make those kinds of mistakes last year, when we had something like the third- or fourth-fewest turnovers in the league. This year we're right in the middle of the pack. We had a formula of playing things close to the vest, limiting mistakes and letting our defense carry us last year. We have a much better QB this year, but our offensive line is also worse (bottom eight in sacks allowed and yards per carry), and the defense (1st in expected pts allowed in 2017, 15th in 2018) hasn't been nearly as good.

I couldn't find any injury rankings for this season, but we were also fortunate in that category last year at 11th in adjusted games lost. Doesn't seem like that's nearly been the case in 2018 with only seven players starting all eight games so far.

We can blame whoever we want for all of this, but screeching about playcalling completely overlooks a ton of other factors that have impacted this football team.

EDIT: One thing about our rushing game, our yards per carry, stuff rate and adjusted yards are all comparable to last year. But we're producing about 35 yards fewer per game. It feels like we're so much less consistent than we were, but nothing I can see really supports that. So if you want to rip play-calling, that could be the best place to start.

[hermes]

I don't think I'm asking for perfection at all Hermes. I'm asking for professionals to be professionals. Zimmer isn't a rookie coach or rookie head coach anymore. Shurmur was five fold better calling this offense and did it while Zimmer was here. This OC is yiounger and he's either just bad or he's getting pushed around by a conservative Zimmer.

This team was one game away from a homefield superbowl last season. They added a good QB and he's finally brought a respect level to the passing game we haven't seen in a long time. But these coaches are trying their best to ruin him and this team. They honestly could be unbeaten or have one loss to Rams right now. They way things are going they might be a .500 team when all is said and done.

you say the passing game has a new (high) level of respect it hasn't had in a while, does defilippo get no credit for that?
yes cousins has been really good and deserves a lot of credit (along with the receivers) but defilippo is calling the plays and coaching the players and you've said before that cousins is just doing what he's told out there

yeah, we might be a .500 team. this season was going to be tougher, the schedule is very rough and with the success we had last year (despite not making it all the way) does put kind of a target on your back (especially within our division) so teams will be up for playing us. its very difficult to sustain success anymore

This is Zimmers 5th season as head coach. The only perfection being expected anymore out of his mistake riddle heading coaching job is the perfection he expects the kickers to have and the offense to play at when he's asking them to play to lose and some how still compete. The only way to possibly do that is to never ever have a mistake happen. That's rarely going to occur. It sure never occurs much for his defense anymore.

you just described zimmer's coaching philosophy, that is not going to change on a major level. zimmer is who he is, there are things that might evolve but for better or worse that is what we are going to get. sounds like you support a different philosophy, and that's fine but i think its foolhardy to expect anything else from zimmer at this point

This childish kicker act Zimmer and his coaches have problems with drives me nuts. What about your defense Zimmer? What about your inability to know when to challenge a call? Can we doghouse this coach so he can stop holding this team back?

i've said that zimmer struggles with some game management stuff. my defense of him is that he really knows defense and has built an amazing one - which i'd say has a much greater impact on the whole game week after week than inadequacies in game management

[Jedzz]

you say the passing game has a new (high) level of respect it hasn't had in a while, does defilippo get no credit for that?

The answer is no, and then maybe some. Because they've shown they know what works. But then they purposely go away from it.

We already had a decent passing offense under Shurmur with second hand Quarterbacks. Yes they were secondhand QBs.

Bradford had never won 9 games in his long career before coming here.
Keenum also had so far had a middling career until coming here.

The talent on the team, being willing to use them, and letting the QBs get after it when needed was all it really took.

Cousins is another level up in difference. He's got the mileage thrown to prove it over his Washington years with coaching and WR changes galore. You could see the difference from him immediately this year. There is no range issues or accuracy issues showing up. He's not falling apart from a few hits. This was a step up and the team paid dearly to get him. They need to keep letting him and the offense's best players do their thing. Stop getting cute with playcalling with small leads. Stop curling up into the fetal position after a turnover. Just play NFL football like you have a pair and like you didn't just learn the game yesterday.

This was a 13-3 team last year. We aren't talking 10-6. It was 13-3 for a reason. All that talent is still there and more now. Stop playing like you are an 8-8 talent team scared of your opponent's defenses and start laying some wood already.

[Jedzz]

How many teams actually play four runningbacks in one game?

How many teams would keep playing a WR consistently dropping targets in his hands on important down and distance plays?

[Jedzz]

i've said that zimmer struggles with some game management stuff. my defense of him is that he really knows defense and has built an amazing one - which i'd say has a much greater impact on the whole game week after week than inadequacies in game management

ZImmer's defense was pretty stout here at one time. It's no longer that. Much of it appears to be changes in him and some key players no longer playing here. There is no question this defense fell off again a little as Newman started to wrap up his career. Same with losing Robison's consistent play. Newman was key to solidify Zimmer's secondary that was shaky when Zimmer first got here. A couple seasons back now, there was a Change in what Zimmer was doing with the defense and even guys like Newman and Rhodes didn't like what was happening. Whatever it was, health or just too busy on other things or what, Zimmer wasn't his normal self calling the defense during games and the players noticed. I don't think it's ever really got back to that level since. A rare game here and there they look stout again. But it's much more rare. It's made a difference to this defense.

It's still a decent and talented defense that will fight if the coaches keep showing they want to win. When the coaches show they won't try to keep scoring the defense deflates. Why should they fight for another turnover if the offense is going to use three plays to set up a punt like they did after Smith's interception? Those things cannot happen. I don't understand how these coaches don't get this.

All that said, your thoughts about game management not mattering as much I just can't agree with. It wouldn't matter as much if they were aggressively going after the opponent more on offense and defense. But they often aren't from either side. If you were a big fan of what made his defense so good early on here, you know what Zimmer doesn't do much of anymore. When on offense and playing from behind time is your constant enemy. Time must be managed. Time is everything in football. There is only so much of it, and your opponent is going to steal as much from you as they can. It can be every bit as important as how your players perform. That's on the coaches to coordinate and use this time as wisely as possible. They don't have to make split second decisions, but they don't have the offseason of time to learn the game either. Get yourself prepared and stop putting your team behind the eight ball with this stuff. Get 5 consultants to stand on the sidelines with you and yell in your ear if needed.

[Jedzz]

Let's talk about Zimmer's defense. They did alright against Brees overall looking at stats. But the Saints scored every time they reached the redzone. If Zimmer's offense was trying at all, the Saints might have tried more. They even wasted a down on a goofy worthless 3 QB play. That' should have been taken personally that they felt they could play sandbox on you at the goal line. That team had two quarterbacks out wide. They were playing you 9 on 11. Smack someone in the mouth for even attempting that.

Zimmer no longer sends a big blitz often and it's definitely more rare to time them well like he used to. It's often a half effort or a fake blitz now, Everyone getting cute with the disguise and fakes.

After the Thielen fumble, the Saints touchdown play was probably their easiest TD all year. Didn't have to even work for it. This isn't a defense playing like they did years ago under Zimmer.

What is it going to take for Zimmer to have a defense like he used to? Maybe it will never return to quite that level. But so what if it doesn't. They just need to be slightly above average and consistent if you use the firepower you have on offense as you should. It was such a balanced team last year. They just need a single coach to stand up and stop being gutless to lead them.

[Jedzz]

I suppose you think everything I'm saying here is wrong, Hermes. Do you think so? So far it seems like you think I'm wrong about all this. I have been trying to see some of yours and others takes as at least just wanting to look at the positives. But Im reading a lot of what sounds like spin and excuses to just keep doing it this way. it's not ok to keep doing all these things wrong.

[hermes]

i've said that zimmer struggles with some game management stuff. my defense of him is that he really knows defense and has built an amazing one - which i'd say has a much greater impact on the whole game week after week than inadequacies in game management

ZImmer's defense was pretty stout here at one time. It's no longer that. Much of it appears to be changes in him and some key players no longer playing here. There is no question this defense fell off again a little as Newman started to wrap up his career. Same with losing Robison's consistent play. Newman was key to solidify Zimmer's secondary that was shaky when Zimmer first got here. A couple seasons back now, there was a Change in what Zimmer was doing with the defense and even guys like Newman and Rhodes didn't like what was happening. Whatever it was, health or just too busy on other things or what, Zimmer wasn't his normal self calling the defense during games and the players noticed. I don't think it's ever really got back to that level since. A rare game here and there they look stout again. But it's much more rare. It's made a difference to this defense.

where did you hear/read this?

[hermes]

Zimmer no longer sends a big blitz often and it's definitely more rare to time them well like he used to. It's often a half effort or a fake blitz now, Everyone getting cute with the disguise and fakes.

there are always trade-offs with blitzing - that is why teams don't do it every play. when you blitz you take away some help in the back 7. this year due to injuries, people not playing as well, or whatever our back 7 has taken a step back.

maybe zimmer isn't blitzing as much because he feels like he has to give his secondary more help or he doesn't want to leave them on an island

[Jedzz]

i've said that zimmer struggles with some game management stuff. my defense of him is that he really knows defense and has built an amazing one - which i'd say has a much greater impact on the whole game week after week than inadequacies in game management

ZImmer's defense was pretty stout here at one time. It's no longer that. Much of it appears to be changes in him and some key players no longer playing here. There is no question this defense fell off again a little as Newman started to wrap up his career. Same with losing Robison's consistent play. Newman was key to solidify Zimmer's secondary that was shaky when Zimmer first got here. A couple seasons back now, there was a Change in what Zimmer was doing with the defense and even guys like Newman and Rhodes didn't like what was happening. Whatever it was, health or just too busy on other things or what, Zimmer wasn't his normal self calling the defense during games and the players noticed. I don't think it's ever really got back to that level since. A rare game here and there they look stout again. But it's much more rare. It's made a difference to this defense.

where did you hear/read this?

It was way back in the epic collapse of 2016. I won't search for all of the fodder that came out about it, but here's a couple tidbits.

http://larrybrownsports.com/football/mike-zimmer-rips-effort-of-vikings-after-loss/339403

Newman started calling his own shots in the secondary because Zimmer started getting away from his norm. This was after the norv bye week issue and whatever happened there that completely changed the team. Where they came back like a different and much worse team. Zimmer started having the eye issues then. Maybe that's why he couldn't direct the defense well. A blowout to the colts and worse were of the times. Zimmer was lashing out in the interviews throwing players and team under bus about not following his orders or working hard enough. He was probably looped up on eye meds. It wasn't good times for the Vikings defense.

http://larrybrownsports.com/football/terence-newman-xavier-rhodes-defy-mike-zimmer/340618

His defense hasn't really been consistently great since 2015 and the first set of games of 2016. Back in those days Zimmer could keep the offense in check and win with just 16-20 points. That's no longer the case by any stretch and yet he still locks down this offense at the first sign of a turnover and just mails the game in now. I don't know if he still thinks he has that kind of defense and is in denial or what.

[Jedzz]

I'll give you another example of what I'm talking about with offense. In the 2017 playoff game against the saints, the team started fast and built a lead and then completely shut down the offense by choice. The defense allowed the Saints to make up over 20 points and the game was absolutely lost only seconds from the end. The "miracle" play was a joke flinch by a defender, but it won the game for the Vikings because they did what you have to do when behind with time an issue. They aggressively threw down field at the sideline and let their WR save the game. That win doesn't happen if they throw a 5 yard pass to a runningback middle field. You put your players in a position to help you and let them go achieve it. Maybe that defender never flinches and the Vikings don't win there, but even then at least they would have been seen as trying to do what was necessary.

In this Saints game this year, they did not try, they did not choose to play offense like they should when behind in score and they lost not only by failing but by looking like they are too scared to try. The players were never put in position to succeed in the second half.

[Jedzz]

Am I the only one that thought we outplayed the Saints? Our D looked really good, we kept one of the best offenses in check for basically the entire game. We moved the ball pretty good as well. I mean the Thielen fumble alone, if that doesnt happen that might have been a game changer. I thought we outplayed them but just made 2 critical errors and the Saints didnt. I took that loss a lot better than say the Buffalo or LA loss where the team and defense just looked clueless.

Duke, in part, I agree. I already also posted about how they had outplayed the Saints for a portion of this game. The first 1.75 quarters they did. So much so that in the end they still won most categories of statistical measure. The problem is they didn't maintain that after the first turnover. They curled up in a ball and started slowly adding yards with what they see as safe plays that the defense was handing them openly. Short range, inside the hashes, away from sidelines and short. Extra cute plays with players that the defense won't expect to get the ball at all. I've posted and shown how they took almost 6 minutes in the second half on one drive throwing ultra short safe passes. This while being down by 3 scores at the time. You maybe do that with a lead when trying to keep their offense off the field, not while behind by 3 scores.

The fact they started so strongly and let one little turnover change what they were doing well says everything about what is still wrong with this team and I believe causes the snowball of errors that follow. It causes them to play a way that isn't best for them. We have so many games as examples now, so many games they didn't need to lose in this way. It's a shame as I see it. It wasted all the good things they did do in this game.

[hermes]

its wild to me that you don't consider the defense on the 2017 team consistently great