1989 Jordan vs 2012 LeBron. Better player/season?

[Cavsfansince84]

How many of those guys had the same kind of volume/efficiency combination? Jordan’s production/efficiency combination was way more of an outlier for top tier perimeter than it is today.

Jordan scored 32.5 ppg 61.4 ts% 53.8 fg% with barely taking any 3s. If he came up in the league today and practiced habitually at 3 pointers I don’t see why he wouldn’t exceed his scoring efficiency from his own time.

Gervin, Dantley, and Bird if you count him as a perimeter player all put up huge scoring seasons on great efficiency. Now granted they weren't combining it quite on the level MJ did except for Dantley but it was happening. I think people underrate LeBron's scoring/efficiency combo at this point. Especially during those Heat years.

[Colbinii]

It's not just the space - the more important factor IMO is that the rules have been changed multiple times over the last 20 years to make perimeter offense easier. It's not just making offense easier in general - the rule changes have specifically aimed to make it easier for star players on the perimeter.

No perimeter players put up stats like MJ back when he played... it's quite telling that it's taken several rule changes over the years to get other star players anywhere near his production

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's. Defensive strategies have advanced and the entire defensive philosophy adopted by the league is different now than what it was 20+ years ago.

At the end of the day you are going to be talking in circles without producing anything productive when talking about past defenses and past offenses as both have evolved 10-fold over the past 20 years.

No we won't.... because advances in philosophy and strategy don't matter when you can't play defense because on the perimeter anymore because the rules don't allow you to. It's a fact that perimeter offense is simply much easier now - particularly for star players. There's mountains of evidence to back this up and the numbers simply don't support your argument. Regardless of the sophistication of the scheme it doesn't matter if the scheme is not effective.

In any case I'm not making arguments about schemes... I was specifically talking about rule changes which we know for a fact have made it easier for perimeter stars (which should not be some sort of surprise - the NBA outright told us that was the goal of the rule changes in several instances).

Are you talking about 2012 or 2019?

[LKN]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's. Defensive strategies have advanced and the entire defensive philosophy adopted by the league is different now than what it was 20+ years ago.

At the end of the day you are going to be talking in circles without producing anything productive when talking about past defenses and past offenses as both have evolved 10-fold over the past 20 years.

No we won't.... because advances in philosophy and strategy don't matter when you can't play defense because on the perimeter anymore because the rules don't allow you to. It's a fact that perimeter offense is simply much easier now - particularly for star players. There's mountains of evidence to back this up and the numbers simply don't support your argument. Regardless of the sophistication of the scheme it doesn't matter if the scheme is not effective.

In any case I'm not making arguments about schemes... I was specifically talking about rule changes which we know for a fact have made it easier for perimeter stars (which should not be some sort of surprise - the NBA outright told us that was the goal of the rule changes in several instances).

Are you talking about 2012 or 2019?

HA - that is a good question (I think I got threads crossed)..... it's certainly A LOT worse now than in 2012... but the situation (for perimeter players) has existed to some degree since the mid-00s rule changes. Apologies man... too much posting tonight!

All that being said, I went way off topic and this is a fairly close comparison

[Colbinii]

No we won't.... because advances in philosophy and strategy don't matter when you can't play defense because on the perimeter anymore because the rules don't allow you to. It's a fact that perimeter offense is simply much easier now - particularly for star players. There's mountains of evidence to back this up and the numbers simply don't support your argument. Regardless of the sophistication of the scheme it doesn't matter if the scheme is not effective.

In any case I'm not making arguments about schemes... I was specifically talking about rule changes which we know for a fact have made it easier for perimeter stars (which should not be some sort of surprise - the NBA outright told us that was the goal of the rule changes in several instances).

Are you talking about 2012 or 2019?

HA - that is a good question (I think I got threads crossed)..... it's certainly A LOT worse now than in 2012... but the situation (for perimeter players) has existed to some degree since the mid-00s rule changes.

All that being said, I went way off topic and this is a fairly close comparison

Not a problem. I have seen in the last week or so many players bashing a lot of players for playing in the 2000's citing the most recent surge in statistics (2019 season) as a reason.

[Cavsfansince84]

Are you talking about 2012 or 2019?

HA - that is a good question (I think I got threads crossed)..... it's certainly A LOT worse now than in 2012... but the situation (for perimeter players) has existed to some degree since the mid-00s rule changes.

All that being said, I went way off topic and this is a fairly close comparison

Not a problem. I have seen in the last week or so many players bashing a lot of players for playing in the 2000's citing the most recent surge in statistics (2019 season) as a reason.

I agree that if we are talking about today's nba like some people call it you can't lump the 2010-2015 years into it in terms of pace or overall numbers. Everything has progressed a lot in the last few years which now includes more than a few recent rules changes.

[Sublime187]

I'll take Lebron. I think Lebron's defense that year was outstanding and taking all things into account there was a small to no gap between the offense of 89 MJ and 12 Lebron.

[bledredwine]

Jordan was better in any year of his prime than LeBron ever was.That's the end of that story.Just by watching games you see that Jordan was much better.More skill,more competitive spirit.

This is my opinion.

Lebron’s never distanced himself from his peers like Jordan has.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

Gervin, Dantley, and Bird if you count him as a perimeter player all put up huge scoring seasons on great efficiency. Now granted they weren't combining it quite on the level MJ did except for Dantley but it was happening. I think people underrate LeBron's scoring/efficiency combo at this point. Especially during those Heat years.

Late 70's-early 80's != the '87-'93 era, much less '96-'00. Also, Dantley's best career PER was 24.6, whereas in 2017 you had 14 players above Dantley's career best mark. In 2018 you again had 14 players at or above that PER level. Bird's career best PER of 27.8 came in a season where he averaged 30/9/6/53% FG/61% TS, and yet in each of the past three seasons you've had 4-5 players per season at or above that level. And Bird was an ATG and perhaps the most skilled player of all time - he could easily average 29+ ppg today too. In addition, PER favors scoring/efficiency/assists, so it's clear that an order of magnitude more players (perimeter players especially) are putting up huge numbers across the board than they were in the 80's or 90's.

[Franco]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

Watch on YouTube

It took me about 30 seconds

[scrabbarista]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

The two plays from 1:06 to 1:20 are ridiculous. The second one gives me stankface every time I see it, and the first one - that level of agility and quickness from start to finish - shouldn't even be possible. I think Jordan was better in his one-year peak and his six-year prime ('88-'93), but I would take 2012 LeBron over 1989 Jordan. But I started watching the game in 1991, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of '89 MJ.

I also have Jordan better for his career, but barring injury, it's looking like this Lakers contract will probably put LeBron at #1. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but for now I don't like the thought of it. It feels much better for the GOAT to have the greatest peak, prime, AND career.

[Cavsfansince84]

Gervin, Dantley, and Bird if you count him as a perimeter player all put up huge scoring seasons on great efficiency. Now granted they weren't combining it quite on the level MJ did except for Dantley but it was happening. I think people underrate LeBron's scoring/efficiency combo at this point. Especially during those Heat years.

Late 70's-early 80's != the '87-'93 era, much less '96-'00. Also, Dantley's best career PER was 24.6, whereas in 2017 you had 14 players above Dantley's career best mark. In 2018 you again had 14 players at or above that PER level. Bird's career best PER of 27.8 came in a season where he averaged 30/9/6/53% FG/61% TS, and yet in each of the past three seasons you've had 4-5 players per season at or above that level. And Bird was an ATG and perhaps the most skilled player of all time - he could easily average 29+ ppg today too. In addition, PER favors scoring/efficiency/assists, so it's clear that an order of magnitude more players (perimeter players especially) are putting up huge numbers across the board than they were in the 80's or 90's.

87-93 isn't an era. You are drawing an arbitrary line here because it happens to line up with MJ's prime. There wasn't much of any difference between 84 and 88. The only difference would be that some of those guys I listed played on more up tempo teams than MJ did. per isn't something to be taken that seriously either because we are specifically talking about scoring and it takes into account many other things.

[Dr Spaceman]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

It’s not difficult. Watch him blow past one Green jersey and finish over 2:

Watch on YouTube

Visually the Jordan play looks more impressive because there’s 4 yellow jerseys “in the paint” but those guys don’t actually obstruct michael’s vision at all and have no hope of contesting the shot, they are incidental.

[Leslie Forman]

I'll always have Jordan over LeBron, but I will never understand why people have to make so much crap up about how defense was tougher back in the day and how Jordan would score 50 points a game today. You can think Jordan was better without having to talk about him like he's some urban myth. There's video and stats and all that stuff available. He's not Earl Manigault or something.

[bledredwine]

I'll always have Jordan over LeBron, but I will never understand why people have to make so much crap up about how defense was tougher back in the day and how Jordan would score 50 points a game today. You can think Jordan was better without having to talk about him like he's some urban myth. There's video and stats and all that stuff available. He's not Earl Manigault or something.

Only on this forum and hyped news articles do we get this fallacy that Jordan wasn't transcendent as a player.
Wayne Gretzky, Babe Ruth, Ali, Michael Jordan. Those names are all mentioned together with good reason. Jordan was both Lebron and Kobe's basketball hero. Need I say more, in that regard? It's just hip to degrade what he did on RealGM, compare him to lesser players like Kevin Garnett and pretend that their primes matched, etc.

When we look up stats like PER, PPG, whatever... look up the other players of the era as well to get perspective on just how much more dominant Jordan was. [/i] Look up the quotes from professional players and watch full games. I challenge you to link me to series in which Jordan didn't dominate the players that he played against from the day he set foot in the league... win or loss. There are plenty examples of Lebron.

As for the 40-50 ppg argument? Do you really think that Jordan couldn't average 40.... at least? 3 more than his highest in this 3 point jacking, spread out defense league?
It's not just posters who think that Jordan would average an absurd amount.... It's numerous professional NBA players and coaches who say that Jordan would dominate with these rules.... It's the people who actually coach this game and understand the importance of hand-checking, 3-second violation, and defensive schemes. How on earth can Jordan not do that when players like Isiah Thomas and Zach Lavine can score 30 points per game? Kobe can put up 60 on his retirement game, and so on?

Please tell me - What was the purpose of the 2001-2003 rule changes? I made a thread on here years ago that no defensive apologist had an answer for. It showed how PF/Centers dropped 3-5 ppg in scoring and perimeter players had huge spikes, on average 5-7 PPG. This included younger and older perimeter players.

Can you explain the sky-rocketing of PER numbers? Take a look at the charts from the 90s compared to now. Can you explain the amount of rookies coming in at age 19 and scoring 20 points on several occassions?

And are you really going to tell me that Hubie doesn't know what he's talking about?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I'm sorry. Lebron will never be Jordan, and he is not on the same level. He never has been and never will.

[bledredwine]

If you really are too blind to realize just how crappy the defenses are now, just watch a college basketball game. In the 90s, they were one and the same. Now, even a college game makes the NBA defense look like complete ****
Aside from that, you have all of Draymond, Lebron himself, and Popovich so far calling defenses a joke and impossible to enforce.

Finally, I usually take bleacher report with a grain of salt,

but this shows data on some truths that people don't want to aknowledge - that the MVP was primarily a big man's award before Jordan, and that YES the defensive rules bombed the power of the big man and made it a perimeter-oriented award.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/833257-michael-jordan-could-he-really-score-50-with-the-hand-check-rules-in-place#slide7

[Leslie Forman]

Yup. That's what I'm talking about.

[pandrade83]

On the contrary, defenses are much better today than they were in the 80's and early 90's.

It is equivocally NOT more difficult for star players to both score and to rack up numbers across the board than it was in, say, 1992 or 1997. Anyone who watches today's game can see that, and can see the wide open lanes, lack of physicality and rim protection, and ease of movement even in the postseason and Finals last year (when defense should be at its apex).

I challenge anyone to find me a single play from Lebron in the past two seasons where he has had to make as many moves/counters and had to beat as many defenders as Jordan had to beat on this single isolated play from the 1991 Finals at the 1:25 mark:

Watch on YouTube

Good luck.

The two plays from 1:06 to 1:20 are ridiculous. The second one gives me stankface every time I see it, and the first one - that level of agility and quickness from start to finish - shouldn't even be possible. I think Jordan was better in his one-year peak and his six-year prime ('88-'93), but I would take 2012 LeBron over 1989 Jordan. But I started watching the game in 1991, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of '89 MJ.

I also have Jordan better for his career, but barring injury, it's looking like this Lakers contract will probably put LeBron at #1. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but for now I don't like the thought of it. It feels much better for the GOAT to have the greatest peak, prime, AND career.

This. From a career value perspective, I don't think 11 really high impact seasons of MJ trump 14 really high impact seasons from Lebron. As great as MJ was - the gap over Lebron isn't enough to wipe out the still absurd impact of those extra Lebron years.

But I'll never believe that Lebron - for as great as he is - established a higher peak than MJ.

[Sark]

Unless Lebron wins rings, MVPs, and Finals MVPs in LA, what can he do with the Lakers that would make his career greater? What if he misses the playoffs 3 out of 4 times, but puts up good stats. That shouldn't be enough to surpass Jordan's resume.

[mysticOscar]

Why do ppl put the success against MJ?

If MJ didnt totally dominate the 90s and have 2 threepeats and literally had the monopoly on finals mvp when he was playing...then you may see him not retire early and play for more seasons chasing rings.

So chasing rings and chasing someone's legacy is equated to being higher than someone that actually set the benchmark?

Longevity is definatley a bonus, but when it comes to the tag as GOAT...imo it should have less bearing vs let's say the successes u achieved.

In an alternate universe where Lebron actually surpassed MJ in rings and individual post season successes early on his career....what would motivate Lebron to keep going and putting in 100% in offseasons approaching his mid 30s?