ImageImageImageImageImage

Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast

Moderators: nate33, LyricalRico, montestewart

I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 27,275
And1: 4,941
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#61 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:41 pm

nate33 wrote:Interesting thought on Tristan. He'd be a good fit here. The problem is, we can't absorb any additional salary this year or next year because of the luxtax. Which means, the only way to trade him is to send out Mahinmi in the process and I don't see Cleveland agreeing to that unless we include incentive.


I don't like Ingram as a target because I don't necessarily believe in him as much as others seem to but I do think it's past time to start considering serious renovations of the Wizards. And that means going beyond trading Wall. Trading Wall isn't going to solve anything. The Wizards can't really take on added salary this season so they'll be looking for teams offering similar salary or less in trade.

The amount of teams that can send out ~$19 million this season while watching it balloon to ~$38 million next season is actually very restricted, even moreso when you cut out the teams that aren't looking for a PG moving into his 30s who relies on speed/athleticism and can't shoot. And they will have the cost of whoever they might have signed with that money next offseason built into the trade, too. Wall could be traded, but the returns won't be pretty if the team tries to trade him and almost certainly would involve a team sending back a contract they don't like, too. I'm all for the idea of trading Wall if an opportunity presents itself but if the Wizards keep waiting on that kind of opportunity they're eventually going to be too late and we will get to watch more ~.500 ball and first round exits along with some years where they don't make the playoffs when one of Wall or Beal isn't healthy.

Porter is the guy I expect the Wizards will most consider moving, and I sort of get it but I also don't think he's going to return much. More likely if the team moves him they save some lux-tax payments next offseason. The lux tax situation next season isn't as pretty as you've outlined. Don't forget Dwight Howard's player option for $5.6 mil. He's totally opting into that. And the Wizards have $116.4 million committed to 8 players leaving them just over $18 million for the remaining 8 players on the roster, and the Wizards' first round pick is going to cost roughly $2.5-3 million of that (Troy Brown is getting over $2.7 million) and if the Wizards actually implode that number goes up. The minimum salary hold is nearly a million. I'm starting to think Oubre and Sato might both be gone.

Ultimately, Beal is still the better player overall on the better contract. The only hesitations I really have to blowing anything up is I don't want to see Ernie manage another rebuild. I don't really want to see Ernie manage more seasons as he tries to emulate the NBA equivalent of entropy, either, though.
Bucket! Bucket!
King Ken
General Manager
Posts: 8,008
And1: 4,673
Joined: Jul 01, 2014
   

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#62 » by King Ken » Thu Nov 1, 2018 4:00 pm

nate33 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
There is hope, and it's linked to what your team can hope to get from a Beal trade
.

Again. How does trading Beal give us hope?

We would either be trading him for a slightly better but slightly older player (say, Jimmy Butler) and add 2 or 3 wins while shortening our window, or we would be trading him for cap space plus picks and assets, which means taking a few years to groom young talent to place around an aging star with a $45M a year contract. (Dumping Beal isn't going to give us meaningful cap space, only luxtax breathing room.)
I am on the boat as a guy who used to go to a lot of Wizards games that he is the last person I would trade from Washington. Just my take

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
JWizmentality
RealGM
Posts: 13,495
And1: 4,505
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Location: Cosmic Totality
   

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#63 » by JWizmentality » Thu Nov 1, 2018 4:09 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:It's starting to feel like outlets are unnecessarily piling-on at this point.

Read on Twitter


Nope, you reap what you sow. No other team has run their collectives mouths more than the Wizards. Wall, Beal and Morris.

If I wasn't a fan, I'd thoroughly despise this team. They deserve all the ridicule coming their way. Sorry.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 38,499
And1: 5,508
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#64 » by Ruzious » Thu Nov 1, 2018 4:30 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:It's starting to feel like outlets are unnecessarily piling-on at this point.

Read on Twitter


Nope, you reap what you sow. No other team has run their collectives mouths more than the Wizards. Wall, Beal and Morris.

If I wasn't a fan, I'd thoroughly despise this team. They deserve all the ridicule coming their way. Sorry.

Aside from Otto and Sato and possibly Green, the players on this team are the kind of players I would normally root against.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 22,414
And1: 7,861
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#65 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Nov 1, 2018 4:39 pm

King Ken wrote:I am on the boat as a guy who used to go to a lot of Wizards games that he is the last person I would trade from Washington. Just my take...


You aren't wrong to feel that way. Beal is a very good player and a worthy building block for any team to build around.

But the WIZ have created a worst case scenario: They have talent few other teams covet, a bloated payroll and a team nowhere near contention.

1) Beal is by far the team's best trade chip.

2) And is likely to leave the dysfunction on this team as soon as he can. I expect a trade request either next summer or the summer after. Once that happens, as the time under contract continues to shorten...his value will gradually decrease.

If Beal here, in his prime, isn't enough to even guarantee a ECF berth, then holding on to him at all costs is rather pointless.

  • Why force a good player in his prime to play on a bad franchise going nowhere?
  • Why even risk a valuable trade-asset forcing his way out -- or worse walking away for nothing?
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 54,676
And1: 8,761
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#66 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:12 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:2) And is likely to leave the dysfunction on this team as soon as he can. I expect a trade request either next summer or the summer after. Once that happens, as the time under contract continues to shorten...his value will gradually decrease.

This is utter nonsense - pure conjecture based on wishful thinking on your part.

I've seen no indication whatsoever that Beal wishes to force himself out of Washington. I'm sure all of the players are tired of mediocrity and would be open-minded to a change of scenery, but that's the same as in any other non-contending team. That doesn't mean that non-contending teams should immediately seek to trade their best players.

If changes were made that actually gave the franchise hope for the future, then there's no reason to think that Beal wouldn't want to take part.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 22,414
And1: 7,861
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#67 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:18 pm

nate33 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:2) And is likely to leave the dysfunction on this team as soon as he can. I expect a trade request either next summer or the summer after. Once that happens, as the time under contract continues to shorten...his value will gradually decrease.



This is utter nonsense - pure conjecture based on wishful thinking on your part.



As an objective observer, this is headed for a painful breakup, Nate.

And NBA fans have seen similar scenarios play out over the years.

Just remember where you heard it, Nate.


Spoiler:
Read on Twitter


Bradley Beal isn't happy here. Your team isn't winning. It'll take massive changes to turn this around.

(Please don't ban me because you disagree.)
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 54,676
And1: 8,761
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#68 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:22 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:2) And is likely to leave the dysfunction on this team as soon as he can. I expect a trade request either next summer or the summer after. Once that happens, as the time under contract continues to shorten...his value will gradually decrease.



This is utter nonsense - pure conjecture based on wishful thinking on your part.



As an objective observer, this is headed for a painful breakup, Nate.

And NBA fans have seen similar scenarios play out over the years.

Just remember where you heard it, Nate.


Spoiler:
Read on Twitter


Bradley Beal isn't happy here. Your team isn't winning. It'll take massive changes to turn this around.

(Please don't ban me because you disagree.)

Says the objective observer who wants us to trade Beal for a poo-poo platter of mediocre players.
User avatar
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 21,404
And1: 4,734
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#69 » by Dat2U » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:25 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
King Ken wrote:I am on the boat as a guy who used to go to a lot of Wizards games that he is the last person I would trade from Washington. Just my take...


You aren't wrong to feel that way. Beal is a very good player and a worthy building block for any team to build around.

But the WIZ have created a worst case scenario: They have talent few other teams covet, a bloated payroll and a team nowhere near contention.

1) Beal is by far the team's best trade chip.

2) And is likely to leave the dysfunction on this team as soon as he can. I expect a trade request either next summer or the summer after. Once that happens, as the time under contract continues to shorten...his value will gradually decrease.

If Beal here, in his prime, isn't enough to even guarantee a ECF berth, then holding on to him at all costs is rather pointless.

  • Why force a good player in his prime to play on a bad franchise going nowhere?
  • Why even risk a valuable trade-asset forcing his way out -- or worse walking away for nothing?


Fine points I guess but two key things to consider.

Beal has almost 240 games to play before he becomes a free agent. Your having an extremely premature discussion about his future.

There are a lot of teams that would love to have Beal on their team. His trade value is quite high and there would be no shortage of good offers. Atlanta has zero shot at him unless an unprotected pick is a part of a package.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 22,414
And1: 7,861
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#70 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:26 pm

nate33 wrote:Says the objective observer who wants us to trade Beal for a poo-poo platter of mediocre players.


I was simply gauging interest.

Beal is an exceptional player. The two biggest mistakes your front office made was were:

A) giving Wall Wall the supermax.

B) and matching that huge contract to Otto.

Once those decisions were made, your options moving forward were limited.


Read on Twitter



^Only one of these players has any trade value. Your team should work to benefit from that. Not cling, desperately, to a failing relationship.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 22,414
And1: 7,861
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#71 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:31 pm

Dat2U wrote:Fine points I guess but two key things to consider.

Beal has almost 240 games to play before he becomes a free agent. Your having an extremely premature discussion about his future.

There are a lot of teams that would love to have Beal on their team. His trade value is quite high and there would be no shortage of good offers. Atlanta has zero shot at him unless an unprotected pick is a part of a package.




Every bit of this is reasonable.

Know that the sooner you start dangling Beal in trade, the greater a potential return.

The Bulls moving Jimmy Butler 2 years before he could reach Free Agency was the ideal scenario of a competitive team moving an in-prime player for value. Markkannen is a cornerstone piece and Lavine looks like a stud and a keeper at 23 years old.


That's the ideal package to target: Lottery pick and solid young players.
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 27,275
And1: 4,941
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#72 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Nov 1, 2018 5:55 pm

nate33 wrote:I've seen no indication whatsoever that Beal wishes to force himself out of Washington. I'm sure all of the players are tired of mediocrity and would be open-minded to a change of scenery, but that's the same as in any other non-contending team. That doesn't mean that non-contending teams should immediately seek to trade their best players.

If changes were made that actually gave the franchise hope for the future, then there's no reason to think that Beal wouldn't want to take part.


Yeah, really everything just sort of points back at Ernie. I don't actually think the team would need to be torn down if there was a competent management group at the helm. I also think a tear down could also be successful if there was a management change. The Wizards aren't actually in a terrible position. They do have a financial crunch that prevents significant roster changes in more traditional ways of thinking about things but good management would manoeuver around that pretty easily. Ernie? We know what we're going to get. I don't even think Ted is a bad owner or anything it's just his attachment to Ernie that's his really, really, really big strike against him.
Bucket! Bucket!
User avatar
Rafael122
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 18,963
And1: 1,868
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
       

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#73 » by Rafael122 » Thu Nov 1, 2018 6:50 pm

One thing is for sure, for whatever reason, most of the NBA writers, at least the national ones, hate the Wizards. Some of it is the players fault for talking themselves up every year but they're constantly getting **** on by Bill Simmons and his group.
Bickerstaff: who's up for kickball?!!
Ed Wood: Only if it's the no-pants variety.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 12,476
And1: 3,896
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#74 » by payitforward » Thu Nov 1, 2018 10:31 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Fine points I guess but two key things to consider.

Beal has almost 240 games to play before he becomes a free agent. Your having an extremely premature discussion about his future.

There are a lot of teams that would love to have Beal on their team. His trade value is quite high and there would be no shortage of good offers. Atlanta has zero shot at him unless an unprotected pick is a part of a package.

Every bit of this is reasonable.

Know that the sooner you start dangling Beal in trade, the greater a potential return.

The Bulls moving Jimmy Butler 2 years before he could reach Free Agency was the ideal scenario of a competitive team moving an in-prime player for value. Markkannen is a cornerstone piece and Lavine looks like a stud and a keeper at 23 years old.

That's the ideal package to target: Lottery pick and solid young players.

I have no problem with the way you are thinking about things in this series of posts, rather the opposite, & you are very welcome here. You are certainly right about the ideal package for Brad. Only thing is... your offer was
Jamaaliver wrote:...Taurean Prince/John Collins and Kent Bazemore ....Maybe throw in a top-5 protected pick from Dallas....

Taurean Prince was beneath mediocre last year & is playing much worse this year. Kent Bazemore is a no-no. & the pick you offer is top-five protected in 2019 and 2020 and top-three protected in 2021 and 2022. It's not unprotected until 2023; we might not see it until then. It was worth a 2-position jump in the June draft. Not much.

John Collins is by far the most interesting part of your offer, the only interesting part actually, and he's injured (though I believe it's nothing serious -- right?).

You place a very high value on Bradley Beal. If you think about a handful of players you value at the same level, what would it take to acquire any of them?

You are paying 15 guys $79m this year (plus Melo's $$, I know). I'd say that if you want Beal, you have to actually give some near-term value beyond Collins. Depending on how much you want to give, you could also absorb Mahinmi -- Melo's $$ makes that problematic this year, but you would have no problem handling it next year.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 12,476
And1: 3,896
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#75 » by payitforward » Thu Nov 1, 2018 10:50 pm

Forgot this...
Jamaaliver wrote:Know that the sooner you start dangling Beal in trade, the greater a potential return.

So, offer an attractive return, why don't you?

How about Collins & your R1 pick for Beal -- if... you also take Mahinmi & give us Lin & Dedmon (who are expiring). You stay under the tax this year (I think...?), & next year Mahinmi's $$ is no burden for you.

We give you a tremendous young player who makes your team a lot better this year & going forward, b/c he fits w/ your age structure.

Collins is the only actual asset you lose. Seems to me the pick we get from you will likely wind up mid-late lottery.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 21,404
And1: 4,734
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#76 » by Dat2U » Fri Nov 2, 2018 12:18 am

The Wizards have 4 clear issues in my opinion.

1. Chemistry/Body language

The team usually comes out with energy the first few minutes but as soon as some adversity hits the body language becomes horrible. Either they don't trust each other or they don't like each other. Something is not right. If you saw the video of Beal's reaction to Garrett Temple postgame, that says it all. I also look at Beal crying and being consoled by Wall in LA on the bench at the end of the game. Then Otto disappearing for long stretches and not playing well at all.

2. Switching on defense for no damn reason.

Hopefully with Brooks saying they'll limit the switches, we'll see improvement but for the most part the ability to switch has just invited laziness and apathy on D.

3. Rebounding.

Howard's presence should help here but b/w Mahinmi's regression from even last year to Markieff's refusal to block out and Otto's sudden lethargic play it's been single biggest reason why were 1-6.

4. 3pt shooting.

10th most in 3 pt attempts is okay. I'd like it to be higher but that's not terrible. The problem is were 27th in the league in 3 pt percentage. Otto has let us down here as well. Wall was brutal before his last game. Austin, ugh. 32.3% 3 pt shooting as a team isn't going to cut it. Otto has to really step up here as well.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 12,476
And1: 3,896
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#77 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 2, 2018 12:57 am

nate33 wrote:Shot selection matters and Wall's shot selection has been superb. He is taking a lot more shots from the rim and from the free throw line. That's why his 2P% is at a career high. He's not shooting from any particular spot on the floor all that much better, he is merely shooting from the right places. Look at his % of FGA by distance compared to career norms:

Image

Sure. & I hope the good stuff continues, & the bad stuff abates.

But, I am looking at statistical analysis based on slightly over 200 minutes, so I can't invest much confidence in it. That's not being negative; it's just methodology.

After all, along the same lines, I'm not going to declare that his turnovers this year will be above his career average just b/c they are now. Or that his defensive rebounding will be 2/3 what his career average is, or that his FT% & his assists will be below his career average. & if I don't do that, I also can't declare that he'll wind up w/ a career-high 2pt. % -- even though I'd be delighted if it turned out that way.

What I am going to do is look at his overall play so far -- at this point, overall, he's a little better than last year & nowhere near the year before.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
Meliorus
Analyst
Posts: 3,279
And1: 885
Joined: Apr 16, 2015
 

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#78 » by Meliorus » Fri Nov 2, 2018 2:40 pm

Rafael122 wrote:One thing is for sure, for whatever reason, most of the NBA writers, at least the national ones, hate the Wizards. Some of it is the players fault for talking themselves up every year but they're constantly getting **** on by Bill Simmons and his group.


Because they're a mid-level team that never changes its core. Wizards are kinda boring for writers I feel like.
User avatar
Illmatic12
General Manager
Posts: 9,797
And1: 8,148
Joined: Dec 20, 2013
 

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#79 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Nov 2, 2018 2:45 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:It's starting to feel like outlets are unnecessarily piling-on at this point.

Read on Twitter


Nope, you reap what you sow. No other team has run their collectives mouths more than the Wizards. Wall, Beal and Morris.

If I wasn't a fan, I'd thoroughly despise this team. They deserve all the ridicule coming their way. Sorry.

The only thing that bothers me is that all the focus seems to be on our players, and not the management.

I like our players. They're good guys and do a lot of positive things in the community . It's unfortunate the narrative is focused on deriding their character of these young men instead of calling out the front office regime that has been dragging its players through the mud for 15 years.

There's no owner/GM combo that acts more entitled and smug than Leonsis and Ernie. Just read through this thread and tell me that these issues start from the players:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1073782&start=1300
User avatar
Illmatic12
General Manager
Posts: 9,797
And1: 8,148
Joined: Dec 20, 2013
 

Re: Zach Lowe and Woj talk ‘pathetic’ Wizards on Lowe podcast 

Post#80 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Nov 2, 2018 2:49 pm

Meliorus wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:One thing is for sure, for whatever reason, most of the NBA writers, at least the national ones, hate the Wizards. Some of it is the players fault for talking themselves up every year but they're constantly getting **** on by Bill Simmons and his group.


Because they're a mid-level team that never changes its core. Wizards are kinda boring for writers I feel like.

Yeah the media likes teams that provide a lot of fireworks (positively or negatively)
For example the Timberwolves are giving them a ton of material because of all the crazy stuff coming out of there. Players vs each other, players vs Thibs, Thibs vs ownership etc.

The Wizards have had the same front office for 15 years . They literally had players bring guns into the locker room and had 5 consecutive 20-win seasons, and kept the same GM through all of that. They kept the same core they drafted and are never in the mix for any major trade or free agent. Their head coach is a nice guy with 0 personality. There isn't really any juicy inner turmoil or major turnover within the organization - just boring ol apathy.

Return to Washington Wizards