duble topic thread

[snaquille oatmeal]

topic I:

so we all knew that the first 10 games were going to be tough. I seem to recall a thread of predictions for the first ten games, but I couldn't find it. with that said tonight is game 10. are we were you thought we would be after ten? I personally think that we did better than I thought we would before the season started. considering how many new players we brought in I thought chemistry and gelling would set us back and yeah that schedule didn't do us any favors, but here we are with a chance to go 500.

topic II:

over the past few years the rules of the game have changed the game, especially favoring the offense. this got me thinking about the prolific scorers of the past. these guys had to deal with things like hand checking, clothes lining, grabbing, no lay ups defenses etc. image the stats some of these guys would put up today. so it begs the question "at what point do we stop comparing todays stats with yesterdays stats?" what would it take for everyone to agree that James Harden would not be James Harden if he was officiated like MJ was in the 80's and early 90's. at what point do we say if Curry or Clay score 100 in a game it is not to same standards as Kobe's 81 or Wilts 100, so don't even try to compare them. will it be Silvers new rule that you do not come within 3 feet of the beard or you get a T for excessive personal air space invasion etc.

your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[Landsberger]

1. I was expecting this as well. It could last up to 20 or more games IMHO. Our new team and Luke’s inexperience with Vets will test the FO resolve as well.

2. Having watched the game since 72 I’ve seen the scoring of the 70’s and 80’s the mugging of the late 80’s and early 90’s and then the scoring retuning again. Each era the players adjusted to the rules and found ways to score. Great players will find a way to score. By today’s rules Kareem was fouled on most of his shots with guys pushing him with 2 hands but it wasn’t called back then. Dr J traveled a lot..... a lot. Gervin could score today. Harden would have been successful back then as well.

[snaquille oatmeal]

1. I was expecting this as well. It could last up to 20 or more games IMHO. Our new team and Luke’s inexperience with Vets will test the FO resolve as well.

2. Having watched the game since 72 I’ve seen the scoring of the 70’s and 80’s the mugging of the late 80’s and early 90’s and then the scoring retuning again. Each era the players adjusted to the rules and found ways to score. Great players will find a way to score. By today’s rules Kareem was fouled on most of his shots with guys pushing him with 2 hands but it wasn’t called back then. Dr J traveled a lot..... a lot. Gervin could score today. Harden would have been successful back then as well.

the next ten games are easier so we may do better than the last ten.

I am talking about stats comparison. not weather who would do what in which era. yeah Harden would adjust and score in the late 80's and early 90's but he wouldn't be anywhere as successful as he is in this era. he wouldn't get to the free throw line as often and would be way more hesitant to drive to the basket because he would get knocked on his butt. so you can't compare the stats because they would be different.

[stan francisco]

Topic I:
I would’ve thought we’d do better, that we’d come out looking surprisingly good, but I’m happy with .500 given a very tough schedule.

Topic II:
I don’t think stats from different eras should be seen as apples to apples when comparing players’ historical greatness. Only the dominance against their concurrent peers is what can be counted, assuming they’d all obviously adjust to whatever rule trend may be in their era. The greats would be greats no matter in what era.

I think it’s ridiculous what’s going on with the beard, Chrissy Paul and others who intentionally create unnatural moves to draw a foul with no harm done so they can get the blow from the refs. It’s a disgrace to the spirit of the game. If you cheat to win (allowed or not, I consider their shenanigans cheating) you shouldn’t be rewarded for it. If you play tough defense you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Silver needs to cool it a bit. Harden shooting 89 FTs per game isn’t good entertainment. That’s my opinion.

[snaquille oatmeal]

Topic I:
I would’ve thought we’d do better, that we’d come out looking surprisingly good, but I’m happy with .500 given a very tough schedule.

Topic II:
I don’t think stats from different eras should be seen as apples to apples when comparing players’ historical greatness. Only the dominance against their concurrent peers is what can be counted, assuming they’d all obviously adjust to whatever rule trend may be in their era. The greats would be greats no matter in what era.

I think it’s ridiculous what’s going on with the beard, Chrissy Paul and others who intentionally create unnatural moves to draw a foul with no harm done so they can get the blow from the refs. It’s a disgrace to the spirit of the game. If you cheat to win (allowed or not, I consider their shenanigans cheating) you shouldn’t be rewarded for it. If you play tough defense you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Silver needs to cool it a bit. Harden shooting 89 FTs per game isn’t good entertainment. That’s my opinion.

yeah my least favorite move right now is when a shooter takes a jump shot and a defender is within his personal air space and there is no contact and the shooter falls to the ground anyway and goes to the FT line, yeah im looking at you Westbrook and Kuzma

[Landsberger]

Each era had their issues. Fouls in the 70's favored the stars to a huge degree. The game was called Pro Wrestling at times it was so bad. Stars never fouled out. You had 3 shots to make 2 free throws for a while as well.

Harden would have done as well in the late 80's IMO. While everyone focuses on the fouls he gets no one focuses on the fact he's almost un-guardable at the point. A guy his size can get past any defender and into the lane. That has nothing to do with the refs for sure.

The greatest players I've ever seen could play today easily. Guys like Magic, Gervin, Maravich, Jabbar, Bird, Wilkens, Malone etc. could all play well today. The thought that they couldn't adjust to this era is silly IMHO. The greats adjust to the environment they play in. Just because they played well in a "defensive" era doesn't mean they wouldn't be great in an offensive one and vice-versa. The league adjusts as well.

If I set my bias as a Laker fan aside for a minute I could admit that Magic used to get a ton of "and ones" when no one touched him as well. Magic got the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone in fact.

The game is a business and the best players sell. The game has always been "nudged" by the league to favor the best players/teams IMHO.

[snaquille oatmeal]

Each era had their issues. Fouls in the 70's favored the stars to a huge degree. The game was called Pro Wrestling at times it was so bad. Stars never fouled out. You had 3 shots to make 2 free throws for a while as well.

Harden would have done as well in the late 80's IMO. While everyone focuses on the fouls he gets no one focuses on the fact he's almost un-guardable at the point. A guy his size can get past any defender and into the lane. That has nothing to do with the refs for sure.

The greatest players I've ever seen could play today easily. Guys like Magic, Gervin, Maravich, Jabbar, Bird, Wilkens, Malone etc. could all play well today. The thought that they couldn't adjust to this era is silly IMHO. The greats adjust to the environment they play in. Just because they played well in a "defensive" era doesn't mean they wouldn't be great in an offensive one and vice-versa. The league adjusts as well.

If I set my bias as a Laker fan aside for a minute I could admit that Magic used to get a ton of "and ones" when no one touched him as well. Magic got the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone in fact.

The game is a business and the best players sell. The game has always been "nudged" by the league to favor the best players/teams IMHO.

I have no problem believing that players would adjust but it is hard to accept that a player like Harden would score as many points when over half the and 1's he scores wouldn't be called, he would get knocked on his butt every time he faced a "no lay ups" defense and there would be almost no consequences for the defense on how hard he got fouled. or how many more shots would Curry would have to shoot when his 3 pointers only count for 2 points.

[Landsberger]

Each era had their issues. Fouls in the 70's favored the stars to a huge degree. The game was called Pro Wrestling at times it was so bad. Stars never fouled out. You had 3 shots to make 2 free throws for a while as well.

Harden would have done as well in the late 80's IMO. While everyone focuses on the fouls he gets no one focuses on the fact he's almost un-guardable at the point. A guy his size can get past any defender and into the lane. That has nothing to do with the refs for sure.

The greatest players I've ever seen could play today easily. Guys like Magic, Gervin, Maravich, Jabbar, Bird, Wilkens, Malone etc. could all play well today. The thought that they couldn't adjust to this era is silly IMHO. The greats adjust to the environment they play in. Just because they played well in a "defensive" era doesn't mean they wouldn't be great in an offensive one and vice-versa. The league adjusts as well.

If I set my bias as a Laker fan aside for a minute I could admit that Magic used to get a ton of "and ones" when no one touched him as well. Magic got the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone in fact.

The game is a business and the best players sell. The game has always been "nudged" by the league to favor the best players/teams IMHO.

I have no problem believing that players would adjust but it is hard to accept that a player like Harden would score as many points when over half the and 1's he scores wouldn't be called, he would get knocked on his butt every time he faced a "no lay ups" defense and there would be almost no consequences for the defense on how hard he got fouled. or how many more shots would Curry would have to shoot when his 3 pointers only count for 2 points.

You are talking stats alone it seems. Curry's shot would mean just as much then as it does now.... everyone played without a 3 point line. In fact teams score even more than GS without the 3 point line. The 82 Nuggets averaged 127 a game. The 3 point line was there but they only shot 149 of them as a team with a 27% average.

Harden would have gotten a ton of calls in the 80's. In the early 90's maybe not as many however. But then again, Harden scoring 24 in 1992 in a league where the game average was much lower than it is now is just as impactful.

These debates always lead to the same comparisons. Stats... but not in context. The skill level fo the players by era is different... no doubt. I actually think fundamentals have taken a step back in the era of the "one and done" kids in comparison to the earlier eras. Physical development is better now in some ways but then again keep in mind that the 70's and 80's teams played 82 in 5-6 weeks shorter schedule. We worry about back to backs these days.... try 5 in 8 day road trips.

[Sofa King]

What's a duble

[Jakay]

1. I though a 0.400 team. They literally did that, so pretty much right on track. I think they'll barely make the playoffs, and that's only after a big trade mid season. End at about .550 if it all goes well. It's not a well thought through team. That was obvious, and it's only rose coloured glasses that makes ten playmakers and no shooters without many bigs seem like a good idea.

2. Meh, I don't love it right now, but it will even out more as the season goes on. The refs will let a little more defence back in I'm sure. You can't compare any era. Is it soft now? Yes, but it's also a lot more fluid with an emphasis on movement. Defences are literally better than ever, it's not even close. Scoring is up sure, but the pace is quick, the skills at each position are insane, on basically every team too, and it's not like the 80s didn't see some freewheeling D-less high scoring times.

3. See 1.5.

[Kilroy]

1. I thought we'd be better...
-I thought the excitement of the season would have everyone playing above standards... Not happening right now.
-I thought Ball would be more of an offensive force this season... I thought he and Hart would be dialed in on defending the perimeter...
-I knew our perimeter D would suffer without Randle, but I didn't realize how stark that would be...
-I thought Ingram would be a more polished scorer, but I also thought he'd be lost playing next to LeBron... And I didn't expect his defense to be this functional on the perimeter. So maybe net-neutral...
-I thought Kuz would go back to focusing on his 3pt shooting for this season considering he'd be playing next to LeBron... And I thought he'd be a lot better defensively. He's modified his style of play to directly compete with Ingram at this point... Personal opinions vary on who's winning... But the end result is we're a less functional team with them competing instead of complimenting.
-McGee has been a lot better than I thought... Zu and Mo a lot worse...
-Impressed with Rondo... Annoyed by Beasley..
-Lance is fun to watch, but he doesn't integrate well... When he gets the ball, it's like there's no one else on the court... Still like him though.

2. All the rule changes and the focus on the outside shot, has resulted in an influx of a lot of physically unimpressive star players... A lot of the 'battle' that used to happen is gone now... Personally, I find the modern style of play a little plastic and boring.
And... I've always said the stars of the past get under-rated today... Guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, Bird, would probably be thought of even better in the modern era... MJ would probably shoot a hell of a lot more 3s... Guys like Iverson, Barkley, DrJ and Clyde would be even more impressive... Worthy would be a dominant force... Stockton and Nash would be MVP candidates...
Guys like Yao, Shaq, Wilt, Malone... And maybe even Russell, Moses Malone, and Ewing... Might take a little hit in the modern era...