Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG

[VFX]

Vuc is an easy target to blame for Orlando’s troubles over the years. I think it’s moreso a systematic problem.

Drafting. Yes, drafting has been the worst in what seems like forever. The last potentially elite player that Orlando acquired via draft was Oladipo. We all know how that went. Oladipo aside, as an organization you can’t continue to draft players that are questionable offensively, and rest your laurels on physical measurements and long term potential without at least having some young talent with actual basketball skills. This is on WeHam as much as it’s on previous management like it or not. It’s not surprising at all to watch this team stuggle to score when you add no players able to do so via draft.

Secondly, reliance on veteran talent without having an escape plan. You can’t continue to roll out the same players giving you losing seasons if you continue to terminate management . They have been rearranging the chairs on the Titanic for multiple seasons without actually fixing any of the problems. WeHam sat on their hands last season for “evaluation” and their proponents will claim they are letting said contracts expire. For what? A potentially low return on expiring contracts and a shot at overpaying an unwanted/unmatched player in free agency? Pass.

There might be zero value to the players that need to be moved, but bottoming out for once in a decade is better than barely doing so. At some point they needed to take the hit and they refused to do it. If it really was for the business side of things, that makes it sadder for them not being able to see the bigger picture and the fans deserve better.

That’s why other teams have been more successful in their rebuilds and Orlando has been in neutral rolling backwards.

[OrlandO]

You know depresses me is that teams that started their rebuilds after us are going to be light years ahead of us. I fear 2-3 years from now we are going to be continuing to play Vuc and Fournier big minutes and continue hoping we find a star

Reminds me of people taking digs at Weltman/Clifford before the season even started because they assumed Isaac wouldn't start. Vuc is expiring and Weltman used a major asset to draft his replacement... do you really think he's not going to start Bamba sooner than later?

Problem is Vuc is going to whine and pout. Why do I say that? Because he has done it before and I see no reason why he won’t again:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/28/nikola-vucevic-not-happy-to-be-coming-off-the-bench-for-magic/

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of the first pieces he added to his core is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Reminds me of people taking digs at Weltman/Clifford before the season even started because they assumed Isaac wouldn't start. Vuc is expiring and Weltman used a major asset to draft his replacement... do you really think he's not going to start Bamba sooner than later?

Problem is Vuc is going to whine and pout. Why do I say that? Because he has done it before and I see no reason why he won’t again:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/28/nikola-vucevic-not-happy-to-be-coming-off-the-bench-for-magic/

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of his first core pieces is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"
I would've been concerned if Vuc didn't complain about playing behind a massively inferior player. That whole fiasco was a GD circus to begin with when Vogel was forced to play that idiot in front of Nik because of all the money they wasted on him. They could've paid me his salary and gotten a better return because I don't have the IQ of a dead earthworm and the fat part of a baseball bat for hands.

Ask me how I really feel....

Anyway, Bamba will start and should start next season. It wouldn't surprise me if they start him this season. They need to fully commit to our young guys and find ways to add perimeter scorers around them moving forward.

[j-ragg]

Problem is Vuc is going to whine and pout. Why do I say that? Because he has done it before and I see no reason why he won’t again:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/28/nikola-vucevic-not-happy-to-be-coming-off-the-bench-for-magic/

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of his first core pieces is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

[Furinkazan]

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of his first core pieces is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

yep either He is the real Vuc or
he is Vuc Negan way

He is Vuc though

[Blue_and_Whte]

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of his first core pieces is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

Awwww.. did you have high hopes for Biz... a little Bash Bros sig maybe?

Nah i said at the beginning of the season that since the game threads have been generally pretty bad that I would avoid them so I can just concentrate on watching the games instead trying to keep up with what amounts to useless banter. The discussions are usually better the next day anyway.

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

yep either He is the real Vuc or
he is Vuc Negan way

Spoiler:

He is Vuc though

Sorry...Who are you? You've been here since '05?

[Furinkazan]

Ah yes the Vuc haters drop mic moment that they wont shut the hell up about. Meanwhile BitchSack who gives a burning pile of diarrhea a bad name is paid $17 million and barely looked like a starting G League center "BUT ZOMG VUC COMPLAINED THAT TIME DOE!!!!!!"

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

Awwww.. did you have high hopes for Biz... a little Bash Bros sig maybe?

Nah i said at the beginning of the season that since the game threads have been generally pretty bad that I would avoid them so I can just concentrate on watching the games instead trying to keep up with what amounts to useless banter. The discussions are usually better the next day anyway.

Are you actually Vuc? You never post during the games in the threads but usually will post after it ends... I'm starting to wonder.

yep either He is the real Vuc or
he is Vuc Negan way

Spoiler:

He is Vuc though

Sorry...Who are you? You've been here since '05?

Cheer up will ya?

[pepe1991]

[Skin]

Every year posters say we won’t even break 60 points if Vuc is out and every year we look the same on offense when he doesn’t play.

They don't play the same. They still put up some points because they play faster, but that's also why they give up easier baskets on the other end. We go from bad to worse overall. I would argue it's worse for development as it encourages developing players to focus more on chucking up bad shots than playing defense.

I dunno... I feel like if we were to play faster and go with youth then at least we would have a product on the floor that would at least be an exciting product to watch on the floor. Most fans are not interested in wins right now anyways. It would give us something to realistically cheer for because any progress made would be a benefit to the future core.

You say you're worried about our guys becoming chuckers but that can also be a big contributor to their development. KD applauded Dipo for having the talent to take shots. He called it a talent and I never thought of it like that before. It does take a special player to even have the courage to take on the responsibility that comes with missed baskets. I remember Dipo being called a chucker here. Now, it's paid off. No bad habits developed.

Sometimes in fact, the failure to deliver can be a high motivation factor if it pushes them to practice harder. This goes back to character. Do we believe in the character and work ethic of our young guys? This is why evaluating character is so important in the draft process.

Oppositely, we've seen the frustrations from fans when AG is not being aggressive enough. Sometimes I wonder if that's because he's too scared to miss and make a mistake or if it's attributed to not having the experience as a younger player to have the freedom to work through his mistakes. Now that he's a 5th year player off a big new contract, the expectations are higher for him to deliver. It's been noticed that it looks like he's trying too hard early in this season. People are trying to guess on his inconsistencies.

You made a good point earlier about the minutes restriction on Bamba being a good thing because his body is not ready. Well, I totally get that. But we can continue to split his minutes with Birch. The problem with Vuc is that he is too involved in the identiy of the team and it behooves us to move on from him. Missing his offense doesn't matter because winning doesn't matter.

Watching Vuc help us win games has no benefit if he won't be here next year.

[MagicStarwipe]

Dipo's last season here, he took 2.6 less shots per game than Vuc in 1.7 more MPG and had 3.9% less usage. How insane is that looking back?

[RickB-Orlando]

Reminds me of people taking digs at Weltman/Clifford before the season even started because they assumed Isaac wouldn't start. Vuc is expiring and Weltman used a major asset to draft his replacement... do you really think he's not going to start Bamba sooner than later?

Problem is Vuc is going to whine and pout. Why do I say that? Because he has done it before and I see no reason why he won’t again:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/28/nikola-vucevic-not-happy-to-be-coming-off-the-bench-for-magic/

This is your reason for thinking Vuc will still be here in 2-3 years? This is the last year of his contract. Weltman was hired to rebuild and one of the first pieces he added to his core is a Center. Bamba will start next season. And if they want to start him sooner, like after the all star break this season, they aren't going to care if Vuc thinks he should start or not when he's on his way out.

Btw, don't act like his "whining" wasn't justified.... Biyombo was a bum and he's getting DNP'd like one right now. The important thing is Vuc also said he would continue playing his game and try to contribute any way he could and stay professional... he did that... didn't hear another word about it and he earned his job back by consistently being a big contributor off the bench while biyombo unsurprisingly fizzled out.

So much this. I was going to point out the same thing. This board made all sorts of noise about how Vuc was a whiner, but he certainly didn't dog it an IMHO this was always overblown. The guy has consistently acted professionally and seemingly loves the city.

I've said many times before, but Vuc's biggest problem is that he isn't Dwight, or Shaq. Our fanbase isn't happy unless we have a superstar at the center spot, people aren't going to be happy. There was no way for Vuc to successfully replace D12.

[fendilim]

Everything you said is true. Take Vuc off this team and the offense would be another level of bad.. But my question is who cares? If we lose we lose. Bamba has not been impressive but I still want to see him in crunch time. We drafted him high so hes the future. I want him to work through his mistakes. We are going to lose alot of games and im happy with that.

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all of us wants to see bamba play.

But there is also no denying that the more we lose, the harder it will be for the business side of things.

Why cant we add on what we have rather than replacing or taking it out? We did this with trading Tobias and Oladipo. And replaced those roles to increase usage of Gordon or Ibaka (eventually tRoss). Look what happened we had a setback and still have to recover.

Also, it not like Vuc has been the focal point of our offense since the beginning. Oladipo, Tobias, Afflalo were really the guys leading the charge.

Its just unfortunate that Vuc is our most reliable offensive player. Even Gordon puts up almost enough shots per game as Vuc but he cant even make shots as efficiently as Vuc does.

Leaders are neither born nor made, those who rise to the occassions are leaders.

There really has been no one else on our roster, outside of vuc and fournier, that has shown the capability to rise to the occassion consistently.

Is it because of the buddy ball usage thats why other players dont get opportunity? I doubt it. The past two years under Vogel, Gordon has been given the freedom to orchestrate the offense, and until now, those boneheaded plays are still what we see. Even Isaac have really been passive on offense, and to think people were making excuses for him during his college years that its because his coach preferred using Bacon. But until now...

bamba cant even protect the ball.

I like the future of Isaac and Bamba, but asking them to contribute on offense is, pun intended, a “long reach”.

we are going to lose anyway. That's what Im saying. If we continue to go at the pace we are going what are going win 33-35 games? What good is that? We need to find some direction. If the direction is for the core to be "B.I.G" then lets get that going. what are we waiting for? Im not really saying Vuc is the problem per say but right now it feels like he's in the way of the new direction. Your right Bamba and JI may not be offensive threats. In fact I don't think they will be. That's just bad drafting but that's a different topic but since we drafted them lets roll with them. Move on from Vuc and Evan, tank the rest of this season look to get a top5 pick and add some shooting/ playmaking in the draft and FA and now you have direction. Right now we have no direction

Im not sure if you can say that we have no direction or not. We already saw what happened last season with this roster, and we didnt really add to it. It seems to me that management is trying to subtlely tank. Also the NBA has started a crackdown on the sixers style of tanking.

Financially, it would hurt a lot on the business side of things to tank, getting endorsements or sponsorships would be really difficult.

[NavalAviator94]

Boston fans are delusional

I mean they are used to fleecing teams with trades so I understand why they are thinking that way.

If they did get vucevic in return i fully expect it to look like they fleeced us, i think he'd look great in boston with good defenders around him and system that will use his play making and shooting to good effect as well. Floor would be more spread for his inside game too. His numbers over all would drop but his %s would be nice and he'd have solid games i imagine. Could see Terry being horrible in a lead role too. But it's not much risk we want vuc gone anyway.

This. I think about this quite a bit as I think through trades. Vuc on Boston is such a good fit and he’s just entering his prime. He and Horford have similar styles and Vuc is going to be a whole lot cheaper. Makes playing with Smart extremely effective as well. Then I come back to reality and think that it would be horrible to see(as a fan) and hope we can re-sign him as our long term back up.


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[bargnanimvp]

I mean they are used to fleecing teams with trades so I understand why they are thinking that way.

If they did get vucevic in return i fully expect it to look like they fleeced us, i think he'd look great in boston with good defenders around him and system that will use his play making and shooting to good effect as well. Floor would be more spread for his inside game too. His numbers over all would drop but his %s would be nice and he'd have solid games i imagine. Could see Terry being horrible in a lead role too. But it's not much risk we want vuc gone anyway.

This. I think about this quite a bit as I think through trades. Vuc on Boston is such a good fit and he’s just entering his prime. He and Horford have similar styles and Vuc is going to be a whole lot cheaper. Makes playing with Smart extremely effective as well. Then I come back to reality and think that it would be horrible to see(as a fan) and hope we can re-sign him as our long term back up.


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You lost me on this part. We need him gone from orlando as soon as Bamba is ready to start or if we can get a decent replacement back like say Baynes.

[NavalAviator94]

If they did get vucevic in return i fully expect it to look like they fleeced us, i think he'd look great in boston with good defenders around him and system that will use his play making and shooting to good effect as well. Floor would be more spread for his inside game too. His numbers over all would drop but his %s would be nice and he'd have solid games i imagine. Could see Terry being horrible in a lead role too. But it's not much risk we want vuc gone anyway.

This. I think about this quite a bit as I think through trades. Vuc on Boston is such a good fit and he’s just entering his prime. He and Horford have similar styles and Vuc is going to be a whole lot cheaper. Makes playing with Smart extremely effective as well. Then I come back to reality and think that it would be horrible to see(as a fan) and hope we can re-sign him as our long term back up.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

You lost me on this part. We need him gone from orlando as soon as Bamba is ready to start or if we can get a decent replacement back like say Baynes.

Everyone thinks starting unit. To win in this league you need depth and we have players that would be ideal as we evolve. Vuc provides that depth at a high level and unless we have strong pg play both starting and off the bench, you want his decision making ability there when you need it.

[NavalAviator94]

If they did get vucevic in return i fully expect it to look like they fleeced us, i think he'd look great in boston with good defenders around him and system that will use his play making and shooting to good effect as well. Floor would be more spread for his inside game too. His numbers over all would drop but his %s would be nice and he'd have solid games i imagine. Could see Terry being horrible in a lead role too. But it's not much risk we want vuc gone anyway.

This. I think about this quite a bit as I think through trades. Vuc on Boston is such a good fit and he’s just entering his prime. He and Horford have similar styles and Vuc is going to be a whole lot cheaper. Makes playing with Smart extremely effective as well. Then I come back to reality and think that it would be horrible to see(as a fan) and hope we can re-sign him as our long term back up.


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You lost me on this part. We need him gone from orlando as soon as Bamba is ready to start or if we can get a decent replacement back like say Baynes.

But I wouldn’t hesitate to trade him for a tryout of Rozier or some other clear value. More perfect world kinda thing in keeping him.

[OrlandO]

If they did get vucevic in return i fully expect it to look like they fleeced us, i think he'd look great in boston with good defenders around him and system that will use his play making and shooting to good effect as well. Floor would be more spread for his inside game too. His numbers over all would drop but his %s would be nice and he'd have solid games i imagine. Could see Terry being horrible in a lead role too. But it's not much risk we want vuc gone anyway.

This. I think about this quite a bit as I think through trades. Vuc on Boston is such a good fit and he’s just entering his prime. He and Horford have similar styles and Vuc is going to be a whole lot cheaper. Makes playing with Smart extremely effective as well. Then I come back to reality and think that it would be horrible to see(as a fan) and hope we can re-sign him as our long term back up.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

You lost me on this part. We need him gone from orlando as soon as Bamba is ready to start or if we can get a decent replacement back like say Baynes.

If Vuc was willing to re-sign as a backup on a good deal you would pass?

[NavalAviator94]

Every year posters say we won’t even break 60 points if Vuc is out and every year we look the same on offense when he doesn’t play.

Best example of this to me is a few years back when we played at the Warriors and Vuc was out with an injury and O'Quinn started in his place. We still went toe-to-toe with them the entire game until Curry hit the game-winner over Harris.

I’m going to play the other side and say no way. I remember watching the Magic lose Shaq for a few games. They had a tough stretch and everyone was worried - how do you replace that production. Ultimately they did because the other players stepped up for a short period. Vuc is obviously not Shaq but his contribution is so important it’s similar. Teams can step up for a period but not over a season. It would be horrendous with our current guard play and in my view hurt the growth of our youth.

[OrlChamps2030]

I’d sign Vucevic as a backup for a deal similar to B.Lopez, Monroe, Cousins, etc.

1 year 3.5 mill, anything more let him walk

[Optimus_Steel]

Cliff didn't hold anything back

“You cant play like that,” Clifford said. “Not back on defense. Disorganized on offense...48 minutes, you can’t play five guys. You have to step in. They’re good enough players. It’s not like they’re not capable. But they have to play, and they have to play well.”


“The expectations are so much different than when I was here before,” Clifford said. “You know, those guys didn’t play well back then, they heard about it. And that’s how it’s supposed to be. And these guys need to hear about it too because they’re good enough to play better too. And I need to hear about it, too. That’s all fine. That’s part of this. But to say, let’s find out what’s good, let’s not. Let’s just tell the story, OK. The bench was embarrassing. It was embarrassing. That’s it.”

Stan was the best coach this team had and I respected him because he was fair and blunt. No sugar coating. Cliff strikes me as similar. Prob not as good as Stan but he has my respect and I do like the guy. This team desperately needs to be held accountable. Yes talent severely lacking but set the tone of toughness for the future.