(#1) Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

So, we finally completed the top 10 for the first 2 positions. Anyway, I think that at this point it's clear that there isn't too much that you can say about defense after a few rounds so after the first maybe 6 or 7 spots it gets repetitive, but still, I like how this is going.

So, we made a candidates list, we opened a poll to decide the position of a few players (dennis rodman PF, kirilenko and marion sf, debusschere and gus johnson PF), and now we can start with the new position, we vote for THE #1 DEFENSIVE SMALL FORWARD OF ALL TIME.

If you are new, the (simple) rules of the project are in the next post.


1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
E.C.Coleman (1974-79) Houston, New Orleans Jazz, Warriors
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Scottie Pippen (1988-04) Bulls, Rockets, Trail Blazers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland
Metta World Peace (2000-17) Bulls, Pacers, Sacramento, Lakers, Knicks
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Lebron James (2004-19+) Cavs, Heat, Lakers
Andre Iguodala (2005-19+) 76ers, Nuggets, Warriors
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




Hi guys

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[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players listed as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is unclear, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Matty]

Please stop tagging me.

[Soulcatcher33]

Scottie Pippen.

/end thread

[cecilthesheep]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

[kendogg]

I think Scottie Pippen is the best SF defender and probably the best lock down defender of all time, regardless of position.

[Gibson22]

So, I'm voting for Scottie Pippen, basically before kawhi came by I was pretty sure that he was the best defender of all time between non bigs, now I think that Kawhi may be slightly better than him, but he doesn't have nearly enough minutes to be a real threat in my opinion.

So yeah, it's pippen because there's only one guy who comes close to him (and in my opinion, that guy would even come slightly ahead), but he has 28k minutes played more than him.

BTW I didn't realize kawhi had just 12600 minutes played, this is something we should consider, they are the best non big defenders of all time for me, but less than 13k is really too little.

I don't know how much there's to say about Pippen's defense, he was a great defender till late in his career, his defense was a BIG part in his SIX championships, he was 6'7", 6'8", with a 7'3" wingspan (same as kawhi) he had big hands, he was an excellent athlete for his time, he had an amazing IQ, he was a monster on ball and help defender. Well, MJ got in first in the shooting guard position, and in comparison to him pippen was great for longer, was a better help defender, he guarded the best player more often, he was longer by a lot, he could guard more position , he switched better, both had a great footwork, I mean..

Kawhi is as good as pippen to me, he's more spectacular and dinamic to watch, and basically, if you watch them defend, and weigh in the modern rules, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the number of screens that a defender has to face today, kawhi is probably the best defender of all time excluding wings, but 13k minutes are just not enough. 2013-2016 kawhi defense was out of this world, 2017 was elite, and he's back to his best this year. Other 5-6 seasons of full playing time and he may be the best defender ever excluding bigs

[Luigi]

Yeah, I gotta go with Scottie here.

[penbeast0]

Scottie is certainly a good choice; Bowen and Battier are the other two I was looking at first though neither have the length/strength/quickness combination to match Pippen.

[Gibson22]

So, guys that I think that are locks for the top ten

Havlicek (8 time all defensive)
Pippen (well, it looks like he's gonna be easily first as expected)
Marion
Metta
Battier
Kirilenko
Lebron
Leonard
Iguodala


guys that are close
paul george, prince, grant hill, mckey, gerald wallace, george lynch, bowen

I'd like if someone could tell me a bit about the oldest players in the list, let's say from tom sanders to willie wise. Anyway, I think that havlicek is the only one that will probably get in.

Another thing, what do you think about mckey and mccray? Would some of you vote for one of them?

For those of you who can answer this question, who was better between havlicek and jerry west on defense?

Anyway, my 8 locks (not in order) + grant hill and prince are probably my top 10, not sure about prince. maybe bowen, I almost forgot about him.

Paul George, I find him slightly overrated, at least after the injury he hasn't impressed me too much, maybe I would vote him if he had a longevity advantage on a lot of guys, but with 18k minutes I think he's slightly worse than a top 10 (top 15, yes) with a minutes played disadvantage.

So, I think the top 8 is a bit of a consensus probably?



I'd like, one of those days, to make an argument for grant hill, I think he deserves a spot at the end of the top ten, extremely underrated defender, and a lot of minutes played

[Colbinii]

Andrei Kirilenko

Andrei was the most unique defensive player in the history of the NBA. He had the length to guard Centers and the speed to stay in position to alter the shots of even the quickest guards of his time. He averaged 1.5 steals and 2.4 blocks from 2003 - 2008 (a time period I would call his prime). During his peak (2004 through 2006) he had a defensive impact rivaled only by the best big men of the NBA. In 2003, only Ben Wallace, Shawn Bradley, and Tim Duncan ranked higher than AK47 in DBPM. In 2004, it was Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett ranking higher. In 2005, only Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby. In both 2004 and 2005, AK47 had a higher BLK% than any of the listed players above.

The 2005 Utah Jazz is something of a true Marvel in recent history. AK47 had an on-court defensive rating of 103.6. The team as a whole? 109.5. The next best rotation player? 106.5.

All in all, AK47 is one of the only wings to be able to impact the game defensively at an elite level consistently. LeBron James had his marvelous 2016 Finals performance, but AK47 was doing similar things, night in and night out on a consistent basis. I understand the love for Pippen, but his defensive impact, to me, simply can't compare because of where his strengths lied relative to AK47's. Ultimately, help defense is more important than man to man defense, and that is a big reason why a guy like AK47 deserves my vote.

edit:
Opponents Ortg in missed games...

AK47 misses 4 games in 2004, in those 4 games (which were consecutive)...
GSW: 117.7
Jazz: 115.1
LAC: 110.1
LAL: 116.6

AK47 misses 13 games in 2006...same story...
NYK: 84.3 (Jazz had 71.1, lol)
SAC: 133.7
PHO: 110.8
MEM: 105.8
MIL: 90.1
SEA: 104.8
GSW: 101.0
CLE: 122.3
BOS: 111.9
NYK: 114.2
CHA: 117.8
SAS: 138.4
gSW: 111.7

[Pipp33]

Scottie Pippen - pretty comfortably for me

[Soulcatcher33]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

Like most players the more energy expended on offense the less that was expended on defense. Kawhi wasn't close to the defensive player he had been before in 2017 (still very good though) and hasn't come close to even 2017 this season. It's hard to see him ever surpassing Pippen.

[Colbinii]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

Like most players the more energy expended on offense the less that was expended on defense. Kawhi wasn't close to the defensive player he had been before in 2017 (still very good though) and hasn't come close to even 2017 this season. It's hard to see him ever surpassing Pippen.

A lot of people blend his 2014/2015 defense with his 2016/2018 offense.

BTW, it was before 2016, not before 2017. His 2016 season was his offensive breakout season.

[bledredwine]

Scottie Pippen.

/end thread

My vote as well.

[HeartBreakKid]

i'm going kawhi leonard.

seeing kawhi leonard defense was just freakish - he was the first perimeter player i ever thought really deserved dpoy, and against legit competition in draymond green.

he has comparable team defense to pippen, but in terms of man to man i think he is clearly better from what i've seen both do. leonard really does just butcher who ever he is on, the way he picks up steals is magnificent, not only can he do it without gambling but he can flat out just beat the guy (be totally in front of his drive) and then steal on a consistent basis.

i think longevity will be the main crux against him, but i'll give it to Kawhi Leonard none the less.

[pandrade83]

Pippen - GOAT perimeter defender.

[penbeast0]

...

I'd like if someone could tell me a bit about the oldest players in the list, let's say from tom sanders to willie wise. Anyway, I think that havlicek is the only one that will probably get in....

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics -- Smart, skilled combo forward, not superathletic in terms of either strength or leaping ability but good quickness. Role player who didn't play big minutes.
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics -- Wing; possibly the most freakishly high motor in NBA history, he never seemed to tire. Consistent effort and focus, good at playing the passing lanes. Could be posted by guys like Baylor, Gus Johnson, etc.
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis -- Nicknamed "Jumpin Joe," had good length and hops, liked to chest up
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle -- Like Caldwell but a bit stronger. A guy who could change games defensively.
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets -- quick, fluid, very athletic. Played smart, positional defense. I'm not impartial on him as he was part of the last relevant Bullets/Wizards team that won their only title.
E.C.Coleman (1974-79) Houston, New Orleans Jazz, Warriors -- defensive specialist, role player. I thought he was a 4, but didn't see him on the earlier list when we were looking at positional ratings.
That takes us up through 1980.

Of them, I'd take Havlicek first though I'm not as high on him as some are. Then I would go with Dandridge or Wise.

[cecilthesheep]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

Like most players the more energy expended on offense the less that was expended on defense. Kawhi wasn't close to the defensive player he had been before in 2017 (still very good though) and hasn't come close to even 2017 this season. It's hard to see him ever surpassing Pippen.

A lot of people blend his 2014/2015 defense with his 2016/2018 offense.

BTW, it was before 2016, not before 2017. His 2016 season was his offensive breakout season.

His defense was still on the same level through 2016 though. I mean, he won DPOY that year. I also think the fall-off in 2017, what there was of it, has been rather exaggerated.

[cecilthesheep]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

Like most players the more energy expended on offense the less that was expended on defense. Kawhi wasn't close to the defensive player he had been before in 2017 (still very good though) and hasn't come close to even 2017 this season. It's hard to see him ever surpassing Pippen.

Pippen didn't stay the same defensive player for 10 years either though. He was really really good for a really really long time, but I think through 8 years Kawhi has peaked higher and been just a bit better on the whole - in my opinion, there's a reason Kawhi won two DPOYs and Scottie didn't. Especially given that it was probably easier for perimeter guys to win them when Scottie was breaking out than when Kawhi was. I think if Kawhi can keep playing at an All-Defense level, not necessarily a DPOY level, he will pass Scottie by the time he retires and be the greatest perimeter defender ever.

I hate Kawhi so much. I didn't like typing that.