(#1) Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Soulcatcher33]

Scottie Pippen

I suspect Kawhi may end up at the top of this list before his career is over, but for now Scottie's longevity at almost the same level of defense takes the cake for me.

Like most players the more energy expended on offense the less that was expended on defense. Kawhi wasn't close to the defensive player he had been before in 2017 (still very good though) and hasn't come close to even 2017 this season. It's hard to see him ever surpassing Pippen.

Pippen didn't stay the same defensive player for 10 years either though. He was really really good for a really really long time, but I think through 8 years Kawhi has peaked higher and been just a bit better on the whole - in my opinion, there's a reason Kawhi won two DPOYs and Scottie didn't. Especially given that it was probably easier for perimeter guys to win them when Scottie was breaking out than when Kawhi was. I think if Kawhi can keep playing at an All-Defense level, not necessarily a DPOY level, he will pass Scottie by the time he retires and be the greatest perimeter defender ever.

I hate Kawhi so much. I didn't like typing that.

Not really. Pippen in 94 and especially 95 is the highest any perimeter player has ever peaked defensively. He had a team who lost Jordan and Grant (the other 2/3 best defensive players of the first threepeat) as the second best defensive team in 95. Kawhi was never as good as he was those two seasons. That's disregarding the fact that Scottie regularly became even more dominant defensively in the playoffs througout his career.

[cecilthesheep]

E.C.Coleman (1974-79) Houston, New Orleans Jazz, Warriors -- defensive specialist, role player. I thought he was a 4, but didn't see him on the earlier list when we were looking at positional ratings.

EC Coleman was definitely a 4, and shouldn't be on this SF list imo. Not sure how I didn't catch him either. He probably doesn't have enough longevity to make the top 10 in either category though, so it's most likely a moot point.

[Gibson22]

I'm going to remove e.c.

[cecilthesheep]

Not really. Pippen in 94 and especially 95 is the highest any perimeter player has ever peaked defensively. He had a team who lost Jordan and Grant (the other 2/3 best defensive players of the first threepeat) as the second best defensive team in 95. Kawhi was never as good as he was those two seasons. That's disregarding the fact that Scottie regularly became even more dominant defensively in the playoffs througout his career.

I disagree with basically all of your judgements here. Do you have any statistical measures to justify saying "Kawhi was never as good as [Pippen] was those two seasons" other than raw steals and blocks? Because PIPM gives Kawhi the edge, and the Spurs defense was better with Kawhi leading it in '15 and '16 than the Bulls defense was with Pippen in '94 and '95, both in absolute terms and relative to the league. Also, Scottie doesn't get any advantage from turning it up in the playoffs if Kawhi does the same thing, which he does.

[Gibson22]

Actually I'm starting to wonder if andrei wasn't the best ever honestly, maybe It's just that I wasn't ever much interested in him.. what did he do worse than an ideal perfect defender?

[Colbinii]

Actually I'm starting to wonder if andrei wasn't the best ever honestly, maybe It's just that I wasn't ever much interested in him.. what did he do worse than an ideal perfect defender?

He was a white European and played in Utah.

[Leslie Forman]

I always liked Kirilenko's game, but he really played his most impactful defense at the 4, not the 3, and his team's defensive rankings typically weren't actually any good. I don't think any defense he ever played on was higher than 10th best in the league.

Meanwhile Scottie Pippen led a '95 Bulls team that replaced Horace Grant with Toni Kukoc to the 2nd best defense in the league. That's insane. He really should have won DPOY that year.

[Gibson22]

I always liked Kirilenko's game, but he really played his most impactful defense at the 4, not the 3,and his team's defensive rankings typically weren't actually any good. I don't think any defense he ever played on was higher than 10th best in the league.

Meanwhile Scottie Pippen led a '95 Bulls team that replaced Horace Grant with Toni Kukoc to the 2nd best defense in the league. That's insane. He really should have won DPOY that year.

The other part ok, but the bolded is not relevant in this ranking. When we list a player at a certain position, we have to consider the entire defensive career of that player, regardless of the fact that he guarded more 4s, that he played his best seasons at another position etc

[Leslie Forman]

I always liked Kirilenko's game, but he really played his most impactful defense at the 4, not the 3,and his team's defensive rankings typically weren't actually any good. I don't think any defense he ever played on was higher than 10th best in the league.

Meanwhile Scottie Pippen led a '95 Bulls team that replaced Horace Grant with Toni Kukoc to the 2nd best defense in the league. That's insane. He really should have won DPOY that year.

The other part ok, but the bolded is not relevant in this ranking. When we list a player at a certain position, we have to consider the entire defensive career of that player, regardless of the fact that he guarded more 4s, that he played his best seasons at another position etc

How great a defensive small forward are you, really, if most of your positive defensive impact didn't even come at that position?

[cecilthesheep]

I always liked Kirilenko's game, but he really played his most impactful defense at the 4, not the 3,and his team's defensive rankings typically weren't actually any good. I don't think any defense he ever played on was higher than 10th best in the league.

Meanwhile Scottie Pippen led a '95 Bulls team that replaced Horace Grant with Toni Kukoc to the 2nd best defense in the league. That's insane. He really should have won DPOY that year.

The other part ok, but the bolded is not relevant in this ranking. When we list a player at a certain position, we have to consider the entire defensive career of that player, regardless of the fact that he guarded more 4s, that he played his best seasons at another position etc

How great a defensive small forward are you, really, if most of your positive defensive impact didn't even come at that position?

Kirilenko, on balance over his whole career, was a small forward. He played small forward more often than any other position. Therefore, we put him in the small forward bucket because we have to split players up by position somehow.

Now that that decision has been made, however, we're not rating him on whether he played good "small forward defense" or anything like that. We're simply ranking all players categorized as small forwards by their overall defensive abilities and accomplishments, no matter what kind of defender they were or how they made their impact.

[Leslie Forman]

Kirilenko, on balance over his whole career, was a small forward. He played small forward more often than any other position. Therefore, we put him in the small forward bucket because we have to split players up by position somehow.

Now that that decision has been made, however, we're not rating him on whether he played good "small forward defense" or anything like that. We're simply ranking all players categorized as small forwards by their overall defensive abilities and accomplishments, no matter what kind of defender they were or how they made their impact.

Look, I understand this point, but it's simply not a very good one.

If Kirilenko had never, ever played PF and we were just basing how good a defender he was on his SF defense, absolutely nobody would be considering him as an all-time great defender. You can't say that for most others mentioned here.

[cecilthesheep]

Kirilenko, on balance over his whole career, was a small forward. He played small forward more often than any other position. Therefore, we put him in the small forward bucket because we have to split players up by position somehow.

Now that that decision has been made, however, we're not rating him on whether he played good "small forward defense" or anything like that. We're simply ranking all players categorized as small forwards by their overall defensive abilities and accomplishments, no matter what kind of defender they were or how they made their impact.

Look, I understand this point, but it's simply not a very good one.

If Kirilenko had never, ever played PF and we were just basing how good a defender he was on his SF defense, absolutely nobody would be considering him as an all-time great defender. You can't say that for most others mentioned here.

I don't think the bolded is at all true. Kirilenko was always a uniquely switchable SF both upwards and downwards, capable of blocking shots from just about any position but also fast enough to stick with guards. Anyone who can do that stuff at the level Kirilenko did is an all-time great defender no matter which forward position they play.

Plus it wasn't like Kirilenko moved to PF and suddenly unlocked a whole new defensive skill set, and it certainly wasn't like he moved back to SF after a couple years at PF and stopped being an incredible defender. He was always a combo forward who just happened to play mostly at the 4 during a couple of his peak defensive years. I mean, look at his play-by-play position breakdown on Basketball Reference. He was hardly ever all one position or the other (and when he was, he was normally an SF).

Plus I mean, this is the way we've been doing it for 20 total votes so far; it's not gonna change now. But nevertheless I don't think Kirilenko is any evidence that the system should be different.

[Leslie Forman]

Kirilenko, on balance over his whole career, was a small forward. He played small forward more often than any other position. Therefore, we put him in the small forward bucket because we have to split players up by position somehow.

Now that that decision has been made, however, we're not rating him on whether he played good "small forward defense" or anything like that. We're simply ranking all players categorized as small forwards by their overall defensive abilities and accomplishments, no matter what kind of defender they were or how they made their impact.

Look, I understand this point, but it's simply not a very good one.

If Kirilenko had never, ever played PF and we were just basing how good a defender he was on his SF defense, absolutely nobody would be considering him as an all-time great defender. You can't say that for most others mentioned here.

I don't think the bolded is at all true. Kirilenko was always a uniquely switchable SF both upwards and downwards, capable of blocking shots from just about any position but also fast enough to stick with guards. Anyone who can do that stuff at the level Kirilenko did is an all-time great defender no matter which forward position they play.

Plus it wasn't like Kirilenko moved to PF and suddenly unlocked a whole new defensive skill set, and it certainly wasn't like he moved back to SF after a couple years at PF and stopped being an incredible defender. He was always a combo forward who just happened to play mostly at the 4 during a couple of his peak defensive years. I mean, look at his play-by-play position breakdown on Basketball Reference. He was hardly ever all one position or the other (and when he was, he was normally an SF).

Plus I mean, this is the way we've been doing it for 20 total votes so far; it's not gonna change now. But nevertheless I don't think Kirilenko is any evidence that the system should be different.

Nah. Those Utah teams weren't actually any good defensively and Kirilenko never would have made any All-Defensive teams if it wasn't for all the rep he built up playing defense at the 4.

Nobody, and I mean nobody would be putting him in this conversation if he'd played the 3 his entire career.

[cecilthesheep]

Nah. Those Utah teams weren't actually any good defensively and Kirilenko never would have made any All-Defensive teams if it wasn't for all the rep he built up playing defense at the 4.

Nobody, and I mean nobody would be putting him in this conversation if he'd played the 3 his entire career.

I'd be putting him in this conversation, so that's not nobody, it's just not you ... I'm assuming you didn't actually go look at the positional breakdown, but he was playing half his minutes at SF even during the years he was starting at PF.

The knock on his team defensive ratings is true and a big reason I didn't have him in consideration for the top spot, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what position he played.

[Luigi]

I watched an awful lot of AK. I considered him a 3 almost his entire career. He couldn't keep weight on through the season to be an effective 4 for very long, especially back in those days with power forwards stomping around still. He would revert back to his skinny self despite all the calories the trainers would pour down his neck. He also did a ton of defending on the perimeter.

His defensive ratings don't capture his greatest defensive strengths: he had perhaps the best weak side instincts of all time, and the speed and length to cover ground like very few can. He also had a scary 1 man press that generated a lot of turnovers.

I would put him on top 10 lists at either position. But he's naturally a 3 in my book.

[Johnny Firpo]

I am voting Kawhi over Pippen.

[Leslie Forman]

I'd be putting him in this conversation, so that's not nobody, it's just not you ... I'm assuming you didn't actually go look at the positional breakdown, but he was playing half his minutes at SF even during the years he was starting at PF.

The knock on his team defensive ratings is true and a big reason I didn't have him in consideration for the top spot, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what position he played.

I'm sure you really, truly believe that…but I don't.

The years where he was mostly a full-time 3, he had some mightily unimpressive defensive impact numbers. His shot blocking numbers which really elevated his reputation (don't get me started on how overrated blocks are, that's a different discussion) were still very good but nowhere near as "woah holy crap." And as previously mentioned, Utah's team defense was never actually any good. Frankly, Luol Deng did a better job of playing defense at the 3 next to Carlos Boozer than Kirilenko did.

There's just not much of a tangible resume to call the small forward Kirilenko an ATG defender. And I say that as a guy that was once a pretty big fan of his.

[Luigi]

I question how much of Kirilenko you watched. His young years were on very bad teams. His later years were built around offensive execution from Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, and Mehmet Okur, all very bad defenders. Talking about team defense here is a mistake, given his career, and his defensive identity.

He's pretty easily top 5, and has an argument for top 3.

[cecilthesheep]

I question how much of Kirilenko you watched. His young years were on very bad teams. His later years were built around offensive execution from Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, and Mehmet Okur, all very bad defenders. Talking about team defense here is a mistake, given his career, and his defensive identity.

He's pretty easily top 5, and has an argument for top 3.

I might not go this far. Sure, bad team defensive rating doesn't mean bad defender, but we're talking about ranking the best of all time here, guys who should be able to elevate a defense by themselves. So I think it does have to be a factor.

Look at Pippen's carry job in '95, when the Bulls had the second best defense in the league while starting Toni Kukoč and giving Steve Kerr major minutes. Compared to stuff like that, when Kirilenko's teams are often ranked in the high teens to 20s on defense, I think it's a real mark against him in this conversation no matter who he played with.

[trex_8063]

I’m out of town this week, and will be participating in a much more limited capacity.
Anyway, I’m going with Scottie Pippen too. Remarkable defender during his prime who could very literally guard 1-4 well, and created all kinds of chaos and turnovers on the help D. Helped anchor some elite defense, and was still at least a small positive defender [as measured by RAPM] in his late post-prime years.