(#1) Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[cecilthesheep]

It was much harder for a perimeter player to win DPOY when there were probably a half dozen centers who were at the time considered legitimately great defenders at any given time during MJ/Pippens peak era.

This is a stereotype a lot of people hold about the "old, tough big man's league" which I think is completely untrue.

When Pippen became a starter for the Bulls in 1989, six DPOY awards had been given out. Five of them had been given to guards. That happened in a league with Hakeem, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc. Heck, through 1991, seven of the nine DPOYs went to players at the 1, the 2 or the 3! Voters, if anything, were biased towards perimeter defenders at that time. Bigs didn't actually take the lead in total DPOYs won until Alonzo Mourning's victory in 1999, a full twelve years into Pippen's career. So if we go by who was actually winning the DPOYs, the easiest time for a perimeter player to do it was probably the late 80s/early 90s when Pippen was playing his best defense.

All that said, I still voted Pippen number one. Only one player can win DPOY per year, and I don't consider it an indictment on him that he never got one. However, the idea that it was harder back then for a small forward is just totally false imo.

[Leslie Forman]

Feels Pip is getting overrated as per usual on defense

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html?m=1

viewtopic.php?p=45764285#p45764285

his impact was never as high as the numbers we have paint. Including his peak year in 94 the team was playing elite defense even w/o him

If you ever watched that Bulls team that was one of the best defenses in the league and came away thinking "yeah this defense would be better with Terry Mills in there instead" then frankly I don't want to hear any of your opinions about basketball.

[Dr Positivity]

No need to wait for #2 thread

[HeartBreakKid]

It was much harder for a perimeter player to win DPOY when there were probably a half dozen centers who were at the time considered legitimately great defenders at any given time during MJ/Pippens peak era.

This is a stereotype a lot of people hold about the "old, tough big man's league" which I think is completely untrue.

When Pippen became a starter for the Bulls in 1989, six DPOY awards had been given out. Five of them had been given to guards. That happened in a league with Hakeem, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc. Heck, through 1991, seven of the nine DPOYs went to players at the 1, the 2 or the 3! Voters, if anything, were biased towards perimeter defenders at that time. Bigs didn't actually take the lead in total DPOYs won until Alonzo Mourning's victory in 1999, a full twelve years into Pippen's career. So if we go by who was actually winning the DPOYs, the easiest time for a perimeter player to do it was probably the late 80s/early 90s when Pippen was playing his best defense.

All that said, I still voted Pippen number one. Only one player can win DPOY per year, and I don't consider it an indictment on him that he never got one. However, the idea that it was harder back then for a small forward is just totally false imo.

Yeah I agree. not sure how someone can say it was hard for perimeter players to get DPOY back then when a point guards and smaller shooting guards won it.

[bledredwine]

It was much harder for a perimeter player to win DPOY when there were probably a half dozen centers who were at the time considered legitimately great defenders at any given time during MJ/Pippens peak era.

This is a stereotype a lot of people hold about the "old, tough big man's league" which I think is completely untrue.

When Pippen became a starter for the Bulls in 1989, six DPOY awards had been given out. Five of them had been given to guards. That happened in a league with Hakeem, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc. Heck, through 1991, seven of the nine DPOYs went to players at the 1, the 2 or the 3! Voters, if anything, were biased towards perimeter defenders at that time. Bigs didn't actually take the lead in total DPOYs won until Alonzo Mourning's victory in 1999, a full twelve years into Pippen's career. So if we go by who was actually winning the DPOYs, the easiest time for a perimeter player to do it was probably the late 80s/early 90s when Pippen was playing his best defense.

All that said, I still voted Pippen number one. Only one player can win DPOY per year, and I don't consider it an indictment on him that he never got one. However, the idea that it was harder back then for a small forward is just totally false imo.

In the 90s, it was a big man’s league. The 3 second violation alone gave centers a significantly larger impact than they have now, which is more like the other perimeter players. They were paint defenders, and had a license to block everyone’s shot. Yes, it was very difficult to win a defensive award in the league with Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Jordan, Ewing, Mourning etc. there’s no way that Pippen doesn’t get a DPOY in a decade where Draymond Green can. I mean dude- list the top defenders in the league now and compare it to the list that I just gave you. Look at their blocks/numbers. That should be enough evidence.

On the other side, it IS more challenging to be an effective defender today without handchecking, so there’s that. That said, the bigs got hit by the rules more than anyone, and the competition was stiff in the 90s. To get recognition as an all-nba player from the perimeter, you had to basically be Scottie Mike or Payton.

[Colbinii]

It was much harder for a perimeter player to win DPOY when there were probably a half dozen centers who were at the time considered legitimately great defenders at any given time during MJ/Pippens peak era.

This is a stereotype a lot of people hold about the "old, tough big man's league" which I think is completely untrue.

When Pippen became a starter for the Bulls in 1989, six DPOY awards had been given out. Five of them had been given to guards. That happened in a league with Hakeem, Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc. Heck, through 1991, seven of the nine DPOYs went to players at the 1, the 2 or the 3! Voters, if anything, were biased towards perimeter defenders at that time. Bigs didn't actually take the lead in total DPOYs won until Alonzo Mourning's victory in 1999, a full twelve years into Pippen's career. So if we go by who was actually winning the DPOYs, the easiest time for a perimeter player to do it was probably the late 80s/early 90s when Pippen was playing his best defense.

All that said, I still voted Pippen number one. Only one player can win DPOY per year, and I don't consider it an indictment on him that he never got one. However, the idea that it was harder back then for a small forward is just totally false imo.

In the 90s, it was a big man’s league. The 3 second violation alone gave centers a significantly larger impact than they have now, which is more like the other perimeter players. They were paint defenders, and had a license to block everyone’s shot. Yes, it was very difficult to win a defensive award in the league with Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Jordan, Ewing, Mourning etc. there’s no way that Pippen doesn’t get a DPOY in a decade where Draymond Green can. I mean dude- list the top defenders in the league now and compare it to the list that I just gave you. Look at their blocks/numbers. That should be enough evidence.

On the other side, it IS more challenging to be an effective defender today without handchecking, so there’s that. That said, the bigs got hit by the rules more than anyone, and the competition was stiff in the 90s. To get recognition as an all-nba player from the perimeter, you had to basically be Scottie Mike or Payton.

I don't understand the bottom paragraph. Many more perimeter players received votes for DPOY than they do in the current NBA.

[Joao Saraiva]

Glad to see Kirilenko mentioned here. I understand the votes for Pippen, but AK47 is definitely in the same tier.

Hope he makes at least top 3.

[No-more-rings]

Feels Pip is getting overrated as per usual on defense

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html?m=1

viewtopic.php?p=45764285#p45764285

his impact was never as high as the numbers we have paint. Including his peak year in 94 the team was playing elite defense even w/o him

If you ever watched that Bulls team that was one of the best defenses in the league and came away thinking "yeah this defense would be better with Terry Mills in there instead" then frankly I don't want to hear any of your opinions about basketball.

Yeah we might as well knock Duncan since the Spurs had the best defense the year after he retired. I guess he was “overrated” too.

[No-more-rings]

lebron james

Lebron doesn’t really belong in discussion for first unless you are just talking about peak. Even then he falls a bit short of probably 4-5 others.

Lebron’s years of truly elite defense were from like 09-2013. The other years are kind of a mixed bag ranging anywhere from a flat out negative to very good.

With that said though, he should be an easy lock for top 10.

[apeezus]

Kawhi Leonard

[Gibson22]

No need to wait for #2 thread

Unfortunately I wasn't able to log in until now (2.38 AM here)

[Drylick]

I was pretty sure that he was the best defender of all time between non bigs

No, he aint.

Well, MJ got in first in the shooting guard position, and in comparison to him pippen was great for longer.... he guarded the best player more often

Again, a big NO.

Pippen being a better defender than Mike is a myth, and anyone who really believes that Pippen guarded the best player more often really are (a.) didn't really watch the Bulls and is just pretending, and (b.) is in denial.

But this is up for another debate so I won't continue.

[Gibson22]

I was pretty sure that he was the best defender of all time between non bigs

No, he aint.

Well, MJ got in first in the shooting guard position, and in comparison to him pippen was great for longer.... he guarded the best player more often

Again, a big NO.

Pippen being a better defender than Mike is a myth, and anyone who really believes that Pippen guarded the best player more often really are (a.) didn't really watch the Bulls and is just pretending, and (b.) is in denial.

But this is up for another debate so I won't continue.

Ok, Mj fanboy

[Ainosterhaspie]

The other years are kind of a mixed bag ranging anywhere from a flat out negative[...]

2017. Do you include other years as well? If so which years?

[Drylick]

I was pretty sure that he was the best defender of all time between non bigs

No, he aint.

Well, MJ got in first in the shooting guard position, and in comparison to him pippen was great for longer.... he guarded the best player more often

Again, a big NO.

Pippen being a better defender than Mike is a myth, and anyone who really believes that Pippen guarded the best player more often really are (a.) didn't really watch the Bulls and is just pretending, and (b.) is in denial.

But this is up for another debate so I won't continue.

Ok, Mj fanboy

Your comment doesn't invalidate my point, which is a FACT.

[ShotCreator]

Feels Pip is getting overrated as per usual on defense

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html?m=1

viewtopic.php?p=45764285#p45764285

his impact was never as high as the numbers we have paint. Including his peak year in 94 the team was playing elite defense even w/o him

Yup. I see no reason to take him over Iguodala, Battier, LeBron, AK, and Kawhi.

At best Pippen is on their level to me. No way in hell did he do anything to create some separation.

Artest has some massive DRAPM numbers in his prime and should those be even 90% of a good picture I would include him.

Pippens defensive tendencies and makeup reminds me of Trevor Ariza. Strong enough to play 4 but not gonna swallow up athletic beasts whole like Tucker or Leonard. Good on the boards, great at getting deflections. Weak to jitterbug guards and quick penetration.

Pippen was more of a communicator and had a bit higher awareness defensively but it's close enough to me.

And that's not some guy I'm super high on. Though he was a good defender for a while there.

[Jaivl]

Glad to see Kirilenko mentioned here. I understand the votes for Pippen, but AK47 is definitely in the same tier.

Hope he makes at least top 3.

Oops. How did he not get in?