Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued)

[SO_MONEY]

None of what you said has answered why this team made a trade with no vision. You are correct, GS is all but unbeatable, but again that makes it all the more confounding the deal we made. Like I said it doesn't get you to the playoffs, it doesn't make you a force in the furure, it makes you slightly below average.

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No team was going to give up young players who would make us a force in the future or players that would instantly lift us to the playoffs for Butler with the threat of him walking. You've got to be realistic about what was on offer for him.

I think that is false. There were deals that were better for the future.

I think you are correct in that there likely was not trade to get us to the playoffs.

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[_AIJ_]

This trade has ZERO vision. I have no idea what they are trying to do. It sure isn't to try and make the playoffs and it sure isn't to try to improve for the future. It seems to have no real goal but to make a move to be slightly below average. Why?

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Do you want to be a fan still? Or youre gonna be watching stream for other teams?


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[derek360]

1. Covington is still 27
2. Tolliver is a better 3 point shooter than RoCo. So not even the best, and certainly not BY FAR.
3. Those two aren't even comparable lmao. Patton has played 4 minutes and is so injured we declined his 3rd year option. He's a FA at the end of this year, worth nothing to us. Fultz still has major upside and is a part of the 76ers future plans.

1. Read it wrong about Covington's age. He'll be 28 next month.

2. Percentage-wise Tolliver is better but that is skewed because Covington attempts more 3s than Tolliver. Tolliver has never averaged more than 4.6 3s a game in his career (per basketballreference.com). Covington has averaged 6 3pt attempts since his 2nd season.

3. Fultz has only played 27 games, which isn't a big sample either. Both have major upside but have yet to prove their potential. I would've added another player (Tyus or whoever) to get Fultz.

1. Are you saying I read it wrong or you did? Because you also said "As for Covington, he is the 3 and D guy Wolves need, but he is already 28 (only a year younger than Butler)" in another post.

2. And that's also skewed because RoCo plays more minutes. Their per 36 attempts were actually very similar last year, with RoCo at 7.8 and AT at 7.5. However AT shot 43.6% and RoCo only 36.9%. This year in a small sample size AT is actually shooting more 3s than RoCo per 36, as well as shooting them at a better percentage. Tolliver is the better shooter. RoCo is the better player, and therefore plays more.

3. You don't understand the situation Patton is in. We already declined his option. He's a FA next year and currently doing nothing this year with a broken foot. There was no upside to keeping him and his value was literally zero to us.

1. On basketball reference, they put 28 for this year's stat line so I just assumed... This season is considered his age-28 season. I just looked at basketball reference first instead of wiki...

2. You're right. But Tolliver, let alone Covington, has never averaged 36 mins a game (Tolliver averaged 32, but that was years back and Covington had topped out at 33.8) so it's difficult to project those numbers. I have an issue with per 36, especially with players that will never play/average 36 mins because you're assuming they will sustain that production for the whole game... Even great players suffer fatigue as the minutes and games add up so their production declines. Do we really think Tolliver can sustain those numbers now? I highly doubt it. Especially with the Timberwolves still in the bottom half of the league in 3pt attempts (19th, per NBA.com)

3. I understand the situation. It's a shame we declined his option... Didn't let him prove himself... I am not saying they're the same, but Embiid missed a ton of time and he's worked out fine... The 76ers were patient with him and let him heal... Seems like the Wolves kicked Patton to the curb.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

None of what you said has answered why this team made a trade with no vision. You are correct, GS is all but unbeatable, but again that makes it all the more confounding the deal we made. Like I said it doesn't get you to the playoffs, it doesn't make you a force in the furure, it makes you slightly below average.

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We went below average signing andrew to a max deal.

I agree. More proof this team does nothing right. I have no idea what our trepidation is in letting the market determine value of players.

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Frustrating as hell. oh well. comes with the territory for being a fan for this stupid team.


ready to see KAT unleashed now. a line up of Rose-RoCo-Dario-Tolliver-KAT? thatll be nice

[KGdaBom]

Really? **** man, I'm thrilled we got LaVine, Markkanen and Dunn out of our deal!

Give me RoCo and Saric over those three seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

Really? Wow.

I'd take Markkanen over all of them easily, not even really close for me. He could be a Franchise changer.

We disagree. That's ok. Markkanen is a taller Saric IMO. Saric has better ball handling and passing skills. RoCo is better than LaVine and Dunn is a waste of space.

[KGdaBom]

I'll be pulling for Dario and RoCo in Minny. Both guys leave everything on the court night in and night out. RoCo is a seamless fit anywhere, but some advice: give Dario time to find his niche. He might underwhelm at first but once he finds his groove will be a serious asset. He averaged 17.2ppg, 7.3rpg, 3.5apg with a +4.3 BPM over 10 games in the playoffs (against 2 top defenses).

Besides the shooting and rebounding he adds ball handling and passing.

[Bucketgetter]

This trade has ZERO vision. I have no idea what they are trying to do. It sure isn't to try and make the playoffs and it sure isn't to try to improve for the future. It seems to have no real goal but to make a move to be slightly below average. Why?

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How is this not trying to improve for the future? We got solid 24 and 27 year old role players on team friendly deals who fit well with our franchise cornerstones. Bayless frees up some cap space after this year. The 2nd rounder could at least become interesting because it's the more favorable of 2 teams and that could be the first year that the 1 and done rule is over. We got rid of a malcontent cancer sandbagging our team, and a wasted pick taking up a roster spot. Like you said, this probably isn't getting us to the playoffs, so we most likely will also get a lotto pick in not only what looks like a stacked draft, but the first year that the lotto odds spread out.

The value isn't great for Butler, but what do you expect when every team knows we have to trade him and he is currently ruining the team? Think before you vent.

We got a 27 (28) y/o who doesn't fit with the timeline and only helps us become slightly below average and that is in conjunction with a 24 y/o who might fit the timeline, but is likewise just a role player.

We passed on a chance for obtaining a difference maker, if only but a chance, for mediocrity. Again that make ZERO sense. Just like playing Butler made ZERO sense.

The actions of this team are confusing and to deny that or to tell me to think before I vent just demonstrates your blindness to the realities of 1. where we are and 2. what needs/needed to be done. And finally 3. where this trade puts us relitive to the other two.

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None of the players or picks we have been linked to have significantly better chances of being a difference maker than RoCo or Saric. Like other posters have said, you're not being realistic about Butler's value. Especially when you say "relative to the other two" like you know the exact packages we could have gotten from the Heat or Rockets.

[KGdaBom]

The Minnesota Timberwolves will make the playoffs this season.

100% calling it now.

I hope you are right, but I'm almost certain you are wrong.

[KGdaBom]

This trade has ZERO vision. I have no idea what they are trying to do. It sure isn't to try and make the playoffs and it sure isn't to try to improve for the future. It seems to have no real goal but to make a move to be slightly below average. Why?

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Here's your vision...


KAT gets more shots meanwhile we have 2 guys who can hit 3's space the floor for him. and theres less locker room cancer.

there. how the hell does that need to be spelled out for you? Also another realty check...nobody is beating Golden State this year.

So Money has no vision. This is the trade I wanted from the minute Butler requested a trade.

[Bucketgetter]

1. Read it wrong about Covington's age. He'll be 28 next month.

2. Percentage-wise Tolliver is better but that is skewed because Covington attempts more 3s than Tolliver. Tolliver has never averaged more than 4.6 3s a game in his career (per basketballreference.com). Covington has averaged 6 3pt attempts since his 2nd season.

3. Fultz has only played 27 games, which isn't a big sample either. Both have major upside but have yet to prove their potential. I would've added another player (Tyus or whoever) to get Fultz.

1. Are you saying I read it wrong or you did? Because you also said "As for Covington, he is the 3 and D guy Wolves need, but he is already 28 (only a year younger than Butler)" in another post.

2. And that's also skewed because RoCo plays more minutes. Their per 36 attempts were actually very similar last year, with RoCo at 7.8 and AT at 7.5. However AT shot 43.6% and RoCo only 36.9%. This year in a small sample size AT is actually shooting more 3s than RoCo per 36, as well as shooting them at a better percentage. Tolliver is the better shooter. RoCo is the better player, and therefore plays more.

3. You don't understand the situation Patton is in. We already declined his option. He's a FA next year and currently doing nothing this year with a broken foot. There was no upside to keeping him and his value was literally zero to us.

1. On basketball reference, they put 28 for this year's stat line so I just assumed... This season is considered his age-28 season. I just looked at basketball reference first instead of wiki...

2. You're right. But Tolliver, let alone Covington, has never averaged 36 mins a game (Tolliver averaged 32, but that was years back and Covington had topped out at 33.8) so it's difficult to project those numbers. I have an issue with per 36, especially with players that will never play/average 36 mins because you're assuming they will sustain that production for the whole game... Even great players suffer fatigue as the minutes and games add up so their production declines. Do we really think Tolliver can sustain those numbers now? I highly doubt it. Especially with the Timberwolves still in the bottom half of the league in 3pt attempts (19th, per NBA.com)

3. I understand the situation. It's a shame we declined his option... Didn't let him prove himself... I am not saying they're the same, but Embiid missed a ton of time and he's worked out fine... The 76ers were patient with him and let him heal... Seems like the Wolves kicked Patton to the curb.

1. Cool.

2. Well, that's what per 36 is for, to compare stats between players who don't play the same amount of minutes. It might be flawed for guys who only play ~5 minutes a game, but using it to compare AT's 22 minutes per game to RoCo's 31 minutes per game is exactly what it's for. I see no reason why AT couldn't play 31 minutes a game and still shoot well, it's just he's not that good overall to get that many minutes.

3. Agreed. But that was done as soon as we declined his option, not by this trade. And I simply don't have the medical information to know if declining his option was the right decision.

[KGdaBom]

None of what you said has answered why this team made a trade with no vision. You are correct, GS is all but unbeatable, but again that makes it all the more confounding the deal we made. Like I said it doesn't get you to the playoffs, it doesn't make you a force in the furure, it makes you slightly below average.

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No team was going to give up young players who would make us a force in the future or players that would instantly lift us to the playoffs for Butler with the threat of him walking. You've got to be realistic about what was on offer for him.

We got two good young and 27 is young players on great contracts who have skills that really fit our needs for a disgruntled star on an expiring contract and So Money continues to act like we got hosed. You can't make this up.

[Wolves21]

I don't get the big debate going on right now with this deal with the 76'ers.With all the other deal the Wolves where take back atleast one negative piece while this trade at the very least gives us two solid starters that fit the teams need,give the offense over to Towns & Wiggins,both are on good contracts and are young enough to grow with the team moving forward and lastly we save a little bit of money.

Yes in the big picture view this deal will be next to nothing if Towns & Wiggins don't improve and lead us to the playoffs on a yearly bases and into a contender but pretty much any move we where going to make now and in the future and the whole future of the team is and will be based around those two and what they can do.

I like where we are at right now and moving forward.Got a core now to build around and after this next offseason we should be back in the mix in the West with just a few minor moves like moving or not resigning Teague,Jones,Deing & Taj,firing Thibs and then bring in a few nice role players for our bench and a new head coach.The ice on the cake is if we suck for the rest of this season maybe we can add a top ten pick or better to that mix and then we should really be cooking.

[SO_MONEY]

This trade has ZERO vision. I have no idea what they are trying to do. It sure isn't to try and make the playoffs and it sure isn't to try to improve for the future. It seems to have no real goal but to make a move to be slightly below average. Why?

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Here's your vision...


KAT gets more shots meanwhile we have 2 guys who can hit 3's space the floor for him. and theres less locker room cancer.

there. how the hell does that need to be spelled out for you? Also another realty check...nobody is beating Golden State this year.

So Money has no vision. This is the trade I wanted from the minute Butler requested a trade.

Its great you wanted to middle, but I wouldn't be bragging about it.

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[Ugly Duckling]

Here's a somewhat non-biased, objective perspective. Saric is a beast. You guys will be happy for years with him. Taj is starting to decline, so you needed a 4. Covington is an elite defender, but overpaid because he was shooting lights out before inking that extension. You had to take the hit there in order to get a young Saric for prime Butler. Philly has a slight edge, especially since you essentially traded Markkanen, LaVine and Dunn for Saric and Covington, but Butler wanted out. All in all, I think Thibs got a decent return. Butler doesn't have many more elite years in the tank and the last couple of the supermax will be overpays

Covington is far from overpaid at 11.5M per year as one of the best defensive players in the league who also shoots 36%+ from three on high volume.

I guess man, I mean don't follow him that closely, but I remember before the extension he was shooting like 45% from 3 on high volume, which was of course an aberration. 36% is a lot less impressive and consistent with his career numbers. Whenever I check his box score it doesn't look good. He shoots like 40% from the field, which doesn't constitute a good shooter. But yeah, I guess 11.5 for an elite defender is the going rate these days

[KGdaBom]

Here's your vision...


KAT gets more shots meanwhile we have 2 guys who can hit 3's space the floor for him. and theres less locker room cancer.

there. how the hell does that need to be spelled out for you? Also another realty check...nobody is beating Golden State this year.

So Money has no vision. This is the trade I wanted from the minute Butler requested a trade.

Its great you wanted to middle, but I wouldn't be bragging about it.

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I guess your vision is to go the pure tank method. Try our hardest to be as bad as possible in the hopes of getting lucky in the Lottery. IMO that is a disgusting way to run a franchise. RoCo and Saric are good young players that should help us for the next 6-10 years. They are both on excellent contracts. This was an amazing deal for a player who was on an expiring contract and was making a complete a$$ out of himself.

[KGdaBom]

Here's a somewhat non-biased, objective perspective. Saric is a beast. You guys will be happy for years with him. Taj is starting to decline, so you needed a 4. Covington is an elite defender, but overpaid because he was shooting lights out before inking that extension. You had to take the hit there in order to get a young Saric for prime Butler. Philly has a slight edge, especially since you essentially traded Markkanen, LaVine and Dunn for Saric and Covington, but Butler wanted out. All in all, I think Thibs got a decent return. Butler doesn't have many more elite years in the tank and the last couple of the supermax will be overpays

Covington is far from overpaid at 11.5M per year as one of the best defensive players in the league who also shoots 36%+ from three on high volume.

I guess man, I mean don't follow him that closely, but I remember before the extension he was shooting like 45% from 3 on high volume, which was of course an aberration. 36% is a lot less impressive and consistent with his career numbers. Whenever I check his box score it doesn't look good. He shoots like 40% from the field, which doesn't constitute a good shooter. But yeah, I guess 11.5 for an elite defender is the going rate these days

RoCo is 2nd in the NBA in combined steals and blocks last I checked. Behind only Rudy Gobert. That is some serious talent. I think that 11.5 million is below the going rate.

[Ugly Duckling]

Covington is far from overpaid at 11.5M per year as one of the best defensive players in the league who also shoots 36%+ from three on high volume.

I guess man, I mean don't follow him that closely, but I remember before the extension he was shooting like 45% from 3 on high volume, which was of course an aberration. 36% is a lot less impressive and consistent with his career numbers. Whenever I check his box score it doesn't look good. He shoots like 40% from the field, which doesn't constitute a good shooter. But yeah, I guess 11.5 for an elite defender is the going rate these days

RoCo is 2nd in the NBA in combined steals and blocks last I checked. Behind only Rudy Gobert. That is some serious talent. I think that 11.5 million is below the going rate.

Maybe you're right, but Gobert is an elite offensive player as well. Best FG% in the league. I'd also like to clarify that 41% from the field isn't that bad for a 3&D guy, which Covington appears to be. For some reason I thought he was getting more than 11.5

[vagelis]

I think Saric is a good player. He is better than Bjelica.
Covington is not the type of player that I am excited but ok if he is a good defender and shooter.
I don't know why we got Bayless. Will we trade Teague? And I see Bayless played only 39 games last year. Was he injured?

One good part of the trade is that Wiggins will move to sg position which I think will involve him a lot more in the games.
The bad part of the trade in my opinion is Patton. We should have kept him because he has big potential if he gets healthy.

[thinktank]

This trade has ZERO vision. I have no idea what they are trying to do. It sure isn't to try and make the playoffs and it sure isn't to try to improve for the future. It seems to have no real goal but to make a move to be slightly below average. Why?

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With respect, I’ve never seen you like anything, and you never suggest an alternative you’d prefer.

Let us know what available deal you would’ve preferred.

[Neeva]

You really need to stop overhyping him lol people will be quite disappointed

Covington is far from overpaid at 11.5M per year as one of the best defensive players in the league who also shoots 36%+ from three on high volume.

I guess man, I mean don't follow him that closely, but I remember before the extension he was shooting like 45% from 3 on high volume, which was of course an aberration. 36% is a lot less impressive and consistent with his career numbers. Whenever I check his box score it doesn't look good. He shoots like 40% from the field, which doesn't constitute a good shooter. But yeah, I guess 11.5 for an elite defender is the going rate these days

RoCo is 2nd in the NBA in combined steals and blocks last I checked. Behind only Rudy Gobert. That is some serious talent. I think that 11.5 million is below the going rate.