#2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

As expected Scottie got the first place.


1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland
Metta World Peace (2000-17) Bulls, Pacers, Sacramento, Lakers, Knicks
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Lebron James (2004-19+) Cavs, Heat, Lakers
Andre Iguodala (2005-19+) 76ers, Nuggets, Warriors
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




Hi guys

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[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players listed as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is unclear, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation
Top

[Luigi]

Bowen and Artest are next up for me, then Kirilenko.

I'm going with Bowen. He only gets it because he was a specialist. But that's what this thread is about.

[Sublime187]

I think Lebron peaked highest of all SFs remaining. Jordan was given the nod for SGs even though his play was not as consistent as others so Lebron should get the nod here as he peaked the highest IMO.

[Samurai]

Voting for Bruce Bowen.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Ron Artest. He has the best defensive +/- data supporting him I believe, has a DPOY, has the ideal physical tools for defense, and his longevity is pretty solid, even up through Rockets and Lakers title year his DRAPM continues to be excellent

I believe Bowen is the GOAT man to man defender for SFs but I don't know if his impact extends to help defense as much as some candidates. He is not a player who anchors a defense. He is just a genius at taking one player and eliminating his airspace for the whole game. Possibly makes him more valuable in the playoffs than regular season though

[Red Shoelace]

Can you stop quoting me.

[bledredwine]

This is between Kawhi and Artest for me. I'll go with Ron Artest.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Can you stop quoting me.

Yes.

[No-more-rings]

Good to see Artest getting votes. I honestly think people forget how great he was on defense. I think more people remember Metta more than Artest. Though he was still good then it wasn’t really his prime and certainly not peak.

[mdonnelly1989]

#1. Scottie Pippen
#2. Ron Artest
#3. Kawhi
#4. Bruce Bowen

This is how I expect this to play out and how I think my next vote is...

Ron Artest...

[cecilthesheep]

Ron Artest, for basically the same reasons as Dr Positivity. Kawhi will be my next vote, but for now he still doesn't have the longevity of Artest.

[iggymcfrack]

Gotta go with Metta World Peace. (Figure the man deserves to be called by his current name even if that’s not what he was using during this peak years.) His run from 2006-2011 is pretty hard to **** with. DRAPM between 2.3 and 3.5 every year which matched reputation and eye test at the time.

[Morb]

1) Kawhi
2) Prince
3) Kirilenko

[pandrade83]

Artest followed by Lebron, Bowen, Hondo is how I'm looking at this.

Artest for now for reasons others have mentioned.

[trex_8063]

These next several spots are pretty wide open to me. I’m going to break the ice on Shane Battier and make him my pick.

I’ve started looking at minute-weighted defensive value over replacement level as measured by RAPM (+/- some years of Estimated Impact defensive split and/or APM estimated defensive split for Pippen) for some SF’s, as I had previously for so many SG’s. Replacement level set at -0.75, and pro-rated ‘99 and ‘12 to full-length seasons.

So far I’ve only done Bowen, Pippen, Lebron, Kawhi, and Shane Battier, but I’ll share the results; take them for whatever they’re worth to you, but combined with my eye-test, they rate Battier super-competitive among the best (fwiw, I’ve seen a different source that puts Bron’s DRAPM slightly lower; these are from JE’s sheets where ever possible): Battier has the best average season, best 5-year avg, best single-season peak, and is third behind only Pippen and Bron in cumulative career (Pippen already voted in).
Food for thought, anyway.....

CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement
Lebron James - 81,906.4
Scottie Pippen - 81,078.8
Shane Battier - 73,682.5
Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8
Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5

Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON
Shane Battier - 5,667.9
Lebron James - 5,460.4
Scottie Pippen - 4,769.3
Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8
Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4

Best 5-years Averaged
Shane Battier - 10,586.0
Lebron James - 9,417.8
Scottie Pippen - 8,030.2
Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9
Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8

Best Single-Season VOP
Shane Battier - 14,053.05
Lebron James - 10,841.7
Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2
Scottie Pippen - 9,162.6
Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2

[bledredwine]

I’m actually surprised by the Artest respect as well. Especially when I saw Metta World Peace written, I figured that 75% of posters wouldn’t have really watched Artest. But it seems that all of the knowledgeable posters post in these all-time threads instead of the “Who’s better, Demarcus Cousins or Wilt Chaimberlain” threads, which makes sense.
Nice.

[trex_8063]

Have run the VOP numbers for Ron Artest, Andrei Kirilenko, and Andre Iguodala; added them into the figures of others I’d presented previously. I must say it’s making a compelling case for Iggy. Will have to look at some other stuff and maybe find a game of prime Iggy (in Philly) to watch to refresh my memory of him there; may end up switching my support from Battier. Artest also looks pretty good by these studies.
Will try to add in Havlicek (using Estimated Impact defensive splits) later. I’ll share the updated results for now.......

CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement
Andre Iguodala - 94,380.5
Ron Artest - 82,564.4
Lebron James - 81,906.4
Scottie Pippen - 81,078.8
Shane Battier - 73,682.5
Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 40,306.35
Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5

Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON
Andre Iguodala - 6,741.5
Shane Battier - 5,667.9
Lebron James - 5,460.4
Ron Artest - 4,856.7
Scottie Pippen - 4,769.3
Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8
Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4
Andrei Kirilenko - 3,100.5

Best 5-years Averaged
Shane Battier - 10,586.0
Andre Iguodala - 9,456.6
Lebron James - 9,417.8
Ron Artest - 9,160.5
Scottie Pippen - 8,030.2
Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9
Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 5,612.9

Best Single-Season VOP
Shane Battier - 14,053.05
Andre Iguodala - 11,810.75
Lebron James - 10,841.7
Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2
Ron Artest - 10,175.8
Scottie Pippen - 9,162.6
Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2
Andrei Kirilenko - 6,639.95

[SHAQ32]

...

Good post

Was going Shane Battier as well

[kendogg]

When the stats are close I go with the eye test. Ron Artest is my pick for the guy who can absolutely shut someone down the hardest. Battier is more of a team defender though he can lock down if the opponent isn't too quick. Iguodala might be the most athletic defender here outside of LBJ still on the board, and the one guy who might be as good as Artest at straight up lock down. LBJ himself more of a team defender like Battier. Kawhi doesn't have the minutes and Bowen is a dirty little bitch with less talent than he gets credit for.

Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking team defenders. They are very valuable. But lockdown defenders are IMO more valuable, and very rarely is a top tier lockdown defender not also a good team defender.