#2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[bledredwine]

Have run the VOP numbers for Ron Artest, Andrei Kirilenko, and Andre Iguodala; added them into the figures of others I’d presented previously. I must say it’s making a compelling case for Iggy. Will have to look at some other stuff and maybe find a game of prime Iggy (in Philly) to watch to refresh my memory of him there; may end up switching my support from Battier. Artest also looks pretty good by these studies.
Will try to add in Havlicek (using Estimated Impact defensive splits) later. I’ll share the updated results for now.......

CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement
Andre Iguodala - 94,380.5
Ron Artest - 82,564.4
Lebron James - 81,906.4
Scottie Pippen - 81,078.8
Shane Battier - 73,682.5
Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 40,306.35
Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5

Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON
Andre Iguodala - 6,741.5
Shane Battier - 5,667.9
Lebron James - 5,460.4
Ron Artest - 4,856.7
Scottie Pippen - 4,769.3
Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8
Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4
Andrei Kirilenko - 3,100.5

Best 5-years Averaged
Shane Battier - 10,586.0
Andre Iguodala - 9,456.6
Lebron James - 9,417.8
Ron Artest - 9,160.5
Scottie Pippen - 8,030.2
Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9
Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 5,612.9

Best Single-Season VOP
Shane Battier - 14,053.05
Andre Iguodala - 11,810.75
Lebron James - 10,841.7
Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2
Ron Artest - 10,175.8
Scottie Pippen - 9,162.6
Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2
Andrei Kirilenko - 6,639.95

Those are interesting stats but this is why I take advanced metrics with a grain of salt. As good as Iggy Battier and Bron were, I don’t consider either in the same level of defender as Pippen, Artest, or Kawhi. Yet the latter three and likely top 3 are on the lower end of that chart.

If we went by these charts then Iggy is the clear best defender out of all, which is far from the truth. Placing these 1. Iggy 2. Battier 3. Lebron would be the worst top three of all time list among the defensive lists being created.

Whereas something like. 1. Pippen 2. Artest 3. Kawhi looks beastly.

[No-more-rings]

Battier to me lacked the physicality to be as high as 2nd. Artest and Kawhi are pretty easily superior.

[bledredwine]

Battier to me lacked the physicality to be as high as 2nd. Artest and Kawhi are pretty easily superior.

Agreed 100%

The elite defenders have the combination of top notch athleticism and defensive fundamentals. Battier wasn’t physically gifted like most of the other guys on this list.

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm voting Bowen because like Artest, a GOAT man-to-man defender, but I think he was slightly better playing team defense.

[Ainosterhaspie]

This from Reddit

Last year's postseason was the best defensive run by a wing ever. (You could argue 2012 too after Bosh went down and LeBron had to play a full time PF/C against West/Hibbert and Bass/Garnett while somehow also defending George and Pierce at the same time, but we didn't have the Tracking stats back then).

Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of -14.1% (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of -12.6%

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%

The best rim protection % on the Cavs

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending LeBron - 44.8% Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron

2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi

3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron

3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi

Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender

LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG

Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler

LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG

Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender

LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG

Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense

LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG

Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters

LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG

Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs

LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG

Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens

LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG

Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages

2.3 Blocks a game

2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages

2.3 Steals a game

1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game

It was also the second highest DBPM chamionship run behind only '04 Ben Wallace.

LeBron when fully engaged defensively, prior to age related decline was a spectacular defender. He was his team's go to stopper for whichever player they needed to stop at any position. LeBron should be getting more consideration here than he is.

[Starboy]

Cherrypicked stats from a 3 game stretch where Lebron was playing safety by leaving Barnes wide open in the corner proves that he is one of the top 3 defenders of all time at his position? I thinks not.

[Dr Positivity]

Lebron has spent probably a third of his career as an great to elite defender and the other 2/3 either too young or too old. Not every candidate has great longevity though.

[penbeast0]

Artest and Battier have an advantage over Iggy or Bowen when it comes to the post-up wing scorer, particularly the guys like Corliss Williamson or Orlando Woolridge who used to be a lot more common. Today this would be the guy you want to put on LeBron, Carmelo, or possibly even Durant (though Durant is really a jump shooter, he has such great size you need the bigger, muscle guy to give him trouble). I think Bowen was the most consistent and dirty, Iggy the quickest and most athletic, prime Artest the strongest and most aggressive, Battier the smartest and the one with the best positioning.

Kawhi just hasn't played enough, if this was a PEAK defense year competition, he'd be a good choice for first though.

[penbeast0]

Artest and Battier have an advantage over Iggy or Bowen when it comes to the post-up wing scorer, particularly the guys like Corliss Williamson or Orlando Woolridge who used to be a lot more common. Today this would be the guy you want to put on LeBron, Carmelo, or possibly even Durant (though Durant is really a jump shooter, he has such great size you need the bigger, muscle guy to give him trouble). I think Bowen was the most consistent and dirty, Iggy the quickest and most athletic, prime Artest the strongest and most aggressive, Battier the smartest and the one with the best positioning.

Kawhi just hasn't played enough, if this was a PEAK defense year competition, he'd be a good choice for first though.

[cecilthesheep]

It looks like Artest/MWP has won; are we gonna get started on the #3 thread soon?

[KnickFan33]

Metta World Peace

[Joao Saraiva]

From the ones left I would definitely go with Kirilenko. I'm not in the project for the same reason I usually don't vote for all time projects but...

Kirilenko was fast, could cover most type of player 1 on 1, covered a lot of ground, is definitely the best help defender among the ones left and has the greatest rim protection - maybe only James in his best days provided that and I don't even think James was at the same level, even tough on that aspect he'd be #2 on my list.

His effort was also consistent, even tough Idk if he has a more extended period on that James who I give a ton of credit from 07 to 13 (7 seasons).

I get that Artest was annoying as hell, was physical, fast, covered ground... but I only see him as a better post defender than AK47 (and even there there is room for discussion). Everything else would make me give a nod to AK47.

[CavaliersFTW]

Can I nominate Gus Johnson? He could and did guard all 5 positions depending on what his team asked of him and is one of the few players that could ever do this with relative success. Guys like Earl Monroe, his former teammate, considers him the best defensive forward of all time. Obviously he has the bias of being a former teammate but anyone of clout who's calling you that means your name should be in the hat. Elgin Baylor says both Gus Johnson and Satch Sanders were the two best defenders he ever faced.

[cecilthesheep]

Can I nominate Gus Johnson? He could and did guard all 5 positions depending on what his team asked of him and is one of the few players that could ever do this with relative success. Guys like Earl Monroe, his former teammate, considers him the best defensive forward of all time. Obviously he has the bias of being a former teammate but anyone of clout who's calling you that means your name should be in the hat. Elgin Baylor says both Gus Johnson and Satch Sanders were the two best defenders he ever faced.

Gus was grouped with the power forwards, iirc.

[trex_8063]

I’m not sure where OP is; something must have come up. I’m on limited internet access presently, but I’m temporarily stepping in just to keep things moving. Calling this one for Artest, and will get the next up:

Ron Artest - 8 (Dr Positivity, bledredwine, mdonnelly1989, cecilthesheep, iggymcfrack, pandrade83, kendogg, KnickFan33)
Bruce Bowen - 3 (Luigi, Samurai, PistolPeteJR)
Shane Battier - 2 (trex_8063, BAMBA5)
Kawhi - 1?? (Morb??)