GT#17: LA Clippers vs The Notorious Nets - Saturday, 11/17/18, 6:00pm EST

[Prokorov]

I'm not disputing the fit on offense re: RHJ. I've said several times that he has played like garbage, doesn't deserve to start. Would i have used him yesterday on defense versus Harris or Gallo? Absolutely. Defense still matters. Nets went up big because shots were falling. When they stopped falling the Clippers beat the **** out of them. Spacing means dick when your shots aren't hitting and you're not getting stops. We were up by how many points in this game?

its not like we were getting a ton of stops when RHJ was on the floor either though. it really came down to fatigue i think. RHJ maybe helps on 1 guy and a bit helping, but we were getting blown by all over.. lou williams an harrell were the cippers leading scorers in the 4th quarter, it wasnt just harris going off. in fact harris did most of his damage the first 3 quarters when we led by 8.

Also, I like Jared Dudley, but this whole idea that him being a decoy to space the floor being the best thing for the Nets offense is crap. His production is literally next to nothing. If you want to run 4 shooters at all times at least give the team the best option going forward at PF, which is Kurucs who shoots the ball efficiently, rebounds, and can make things happen on the break.

How is crap when statisically our 3 best lineups and 4 of our top 6 lineups offensively all have dudley in them? statisitcally is overwhemlingly in favor of dudley being the best thing at PF for the nets... i dont understand why his production needs to be high... he isnt out there to score he is out there to be a decoy. who asks decoys to score 10+ ppg?

Maybe Kurucs over the course of the year becomes a better option. i dont think that would be a huge shock if he did... but lets also not just assume a guy who hasnnt even played 75 minutes in the NBA is going to sustain his scattered success in low minutes as a starter over 82 games.

i love what ive seen... but common with low pick rookies is the good gets overblown and the bad ignored and they are pretty mistake prone. i think the smart thing is to put him on the same plan as levert and Allen. start him slow, dont gift him anything, and make him really earn it not just with few games but with 20-30 games. then second half give him a bigger role and ramp it up based on how he does...

even if you prefer kurucs to dudley, what is the rush when our offense has been outstanding with dudley and we are off to a great start? like why mess with how well we are doing just to get rodi starting? Russell/levert/dinwiddie all off to career year starts, why mess with that just because you dont like dudley?

[Prokorov]

How many minutes has that Russell/Harris/Crabbe/Dudley/Allen seen compared to the others?

52 minutes.

I think it has more to do with LeVert, Russell, and Allen more than anything else. LeVert was beasting on rim attacks, Allen is scoring at an improved rate and Russell has been deadly from outside, he's really starting to shoot like he did in college. You add Dinwiddie's improved efficiency and Harris being the best 3point shooter on the planet and you really have to say that we're seeing actual growth from the team's core players.

if thats the case why dont those numbers stay the same with dudley off and RHJ on?

I'm not going to sit here and give Jared Dudley credit for the internal improvement that the Nets have worked hard to squeeze out of their young players. This is a testament to Kenny Atkinson and Sean Marks' hard work in building something out of nothing.

its less Jared Dudley and more forcing teams PFs out on the permiimter/out of the paint. but its being really obtuse to ignore that aspect plays a huge role considering how lopsidedly overwhelming the data is. We are much better offensively with dudley on the floor and we are at our worst offensively with RHJ at PF (as mentioned he has a -3.7 offensive plus/minus the worst on the team of anyone who has played at lest 5 games - i.e. not counting pinson and faried, etc).

so again, you either think that:

A) its a coincidence that we are better when dudley is on the floor and worse when rhj is on the floor
B) you admit we are better with Dudley on the floor but doing think it will continue

Maybe it is "A" and 20ish games is still a small sample. But my eyeball tells me that when we have a stretch 4 on the floor and that PF is on the perimeter our gaurds do a hell of alot better driving/at the rim and Allen feasts in the pick and roll. when that corner SF/PF cant help off their man to impede his roll,

Also, I think part of why we have been better with Dudley at PF instead of say Carroll is because Dudley isnt trying to do to much... carroll can tend to try and force it, when dudley is on the floor he never forces a shot (save shot clock expiring). he is keeping the ball in the hands of guys who are efficient scorers and just setting screens and spacing the floor.

maybe it will prove to be wrong long term. i just see zero argument that we arent significantly better with dudley out there thus far.

[Prokorov]

I am not calling for RHJ to be on the floor. I would have liked to see him get time in this game to help get us some stops but overall I'm calling for Rodi to play more

Then why arent you calling for Rodi to take some of RHJs minutes?

and I'm saying that Jared Dudley's impact probably has less to do with his actual presence and moreso with the fact that Russell/LeVert/Dinwiddie/Harris/Allen have all improved big time.

what evidence is there of this? and why are those guys better with dudley on the floor then with him off? if the cause is those guys improvement wouldnt they be just as good/better with another PF next to them?

[MrDollarBills]

I am not calling for RHJ to be on the floor. I would have liked to see him get time in this game to help get us some stops but overall I'm calling for Rodi to play more

Then why arent you calling for Rodi to take some of RHJs minutes?

and I'm saying that Jared Dudley's impact probably has less to do with his actual presence and moreso with the fact that Russell/LeVert/Dinwiddie/Harris/Allen have all improved big time.

what evidence is there of this? and why are those guys better with dudley on the floor then with him off? if the cause is those guys improvement wouldnt they be just as good/better with another PF next to them?

dude read what I have been posting:

I see absolutely no reason why Kurucs got a DNP-CD. Forget about Dudley, RHJ, and Carroll. All of them are playing like absolute ****, but this kid gets glued to the bench? 17 PER, 62% TS 42% from three. You want to have a shooter at the 4 spot no problem, just stop dragging your feet and play the one who has played the best so far this season.

Also, you seem to be making an argument that I'm calling for RHJ to start over Dudley. I'm not. I have been highly critical of Rondae's play this season and I have stated that he has played his way out of a substantial amount of money through these first 17 games. He is not fit to start.

What I am saying is that Dudley's impact is being severely overrated and it has more to do with the internal improvement that we're seeing from our young players than him being a shooting decoy out there.

I have also called, multiple times, for Kurucs to play over everyone else including RHJ.

Also, look at everyone's numbers. Are you seriously going to sit here, deny that Russell/LeVert/Dinwiddie/Harris/Allen have not improved as a collective, and credit it all to a player shooting barely 33% from 3, 38% from the field, averaging a palty 5/3/1 stat line and posting a PER of 7?

Jared Dudley is washed dude come on man. He is not the reason why we are a top 10 offense right now (which is really something we shouldn't brag about because we're 7-10) nor is he the reason why our young guys are killing it.

[MrDollarBills]

However, I will agree that Dudley never tries to get out of his lane or out of pocket. He's a highly intelligent player. I like Dudley. I really do. But he's also not giving us anything outside of "floor spacing" and setting screens.

Take the leash off of Kurucs and ride with it. The kid can play. I'd rather lose games with him gaining experience over us losing games with him playing behind a 33 year old roleplayer in the last season of his NBA career.

Give me Russell/Dinwiddie/Harris/Kurucs/Allen until LeVert comes back, please.

[Papi_swav]

Guys, Kurucs time will come. Remember Allen didn't start getting good minutes until the new year last year, same with Levert. I want to see him more as much as u guys want but I don't want him to start playing horrible and u guys start tearing him a new one, I trust KA and he's slowly bringing him in. He will probably be starting by the end of this year. I'm just sick of Dudley already.

[LKIRNets]

I thought we wasted Dinwiddie, Harris, Russell & Allen's best game together all season.

I'm not going to continue to harp on the obvious. There is no reason for Kurucs sitting tonight. There is no reason. Crabbe's offense continues to be an enigma.

Do you think we win this game if Rodi plays? because i thought Carroll/RHJ did a really solid job off the bench and our starting unit with dudley absolutely lit it up.

I want more Kurucs too, but i dont see how he would have made a difference.

Do I believe Rodi does a better job? I'm not sure I can honestly answer that. I watched Dudley get burned on simple screens and switches by Gortat and The Rooster. I think had Rodi played, he gets Gallo off the 3 pt. line and causes a much difficult match up, you have to stick wit Rodi or he can go back door hit a 3, leak out on offense. Dudley on D was a statue and effected the offensive game plan by the Clippers, we shut down their guards. Russell and Dinwiddie are becoming a shut down back court, the Clippers were disrupted. Jared Dudley match up gave the Clippers hope.

[LKIRNets]

On/Off numbers can be deceptive too. Dudley has some positive, let's not act like he don't. He good in ball movement and getting guards open off screens. Sometimes a vet is needed. But when the bench option is RHJ... that can show you too much of a positive effect vs a Kurucs being that bench option.

I think we all know the PF spot can not, you can't give Jared Dudley 28 mins and think you're going to win a game easily. And right now we have a backcourt tandem that can drop 50 and hold the other team's backcourt to 25. The PF spot needs to be upgraded.

[MrDollarBills]

On/Off numbers can be deceptive too. Dudley has some positive, let's not act like he don't. He good in ball movement and getting guards open off screens. Sometimes a vet is needed. But when the bench option is RHJ... that can show you too much of a positive effect vs a Kurucs being that bench option.

I think we all know the PF spot can not, you can't give Jared Dudley 28 mins and think you're going to win a game easily. And right now we have a backcourt tandem that can drop 50 and hold the other team's backcourt to 25. The PF spot needs to be upgraded.

There's a 6'9 stretch 4 sitting on the bench on behalf of Jared Dudley's floor spacing ability.

[Prokorov]

I am not calling for RHJ to be on the floor. I would have liked to see him get time in this game to help get us some stops but overall I'm calling for Rodi to play more

Then why arent you calling for Rodi to take some of RHJs minutes?

and I'm saying that Jared Dudley's impact probably has less to do with his actual presence and moreso with the fact that Russell/LeVert/Dinwiddie/Harris/Allen have all improved big time.

what evidence is there of this? and why are those guys better with dudley on the floor then with him off? if the cause is those guys improvement wouldnt they be just as good/better with another PF next to them?

dude read what I have been posting:

I see absolutely no reason why Kurucs got a DNP-CD. Forget about Dudley, RHJ, and Carroll. All of them are playing like absolute ****, but this kid gets glued to the bench? 17 PER, 62% TS 42% from three. You want to have a shooter at the 4 spot no problem, just stop dragging your feet and play the one who has played the best so far this season.

Also, you seem to be making an argument that I'm calling for RHJ to start over Dudley. I'm not. I have been highly critical of Rondae's play this season and I have stated that he has played his way out of a substantial amount of money through these first 17 games. He is not fit to start.

What I am saying is that Dudley's impact is being severely overrated and it has more to do with the internal improvement that we're seeing from our young players than him being a shooting decoy out there.

I have also called, multiple times, for Kurucs to play over everyone else including RHJ.

Also, look at everyone's numbers. Are you seriously going to sit here, deny that Russell/LeVert/Dinwiddie/Harris/Allen have not improved as a collective, and credit it all to a player shooting barely 33% from 3, 38% from the field, averaging a palty 5/3/1 stat line and posting a PER of 7?

Jared Dudley is washed dude come on man. He is not the reason why we are a top 10 offense right now (which is really something we shouldn't brag about because we're 7-10) nor is he the reason why our young guys are killing it.

ive read what you are saying and agree i didnt grasp you wanted rodi over everyone/anyone... thats a bit more reasonable.

i now ask that you read what im saying... i never said dudley gets ALL the credit. im simply saying all evidence and the eyeball tests points to dudley/starting a stretch 4 who doesnt make any negative plays having a huge positive impact on our offense.

again did all those guys improve? yes. but you simply cant ignore dudley has played a very big role in that, given all those players you mention are much better next to dudley vs next to RHJ or Carroll

[MrDollarBills]

The thing is, Dudley doesn't do much else outside of keeping the ball moving and setting screens. Its nice that he's a steady hand because he doesn't make too many errors. But we need more production at that 4 spot, and we can clearly see that Rodi is primed for that job.

I guess I'll just have to be patient....I don't think Rodi should be getting DNPs though. That's ridiculous.

[Curns13]

Did you watch us play last season? If you did, you would have seen RHJ be our most consistent player. He was our 2nd leading scorer and had our 2nd highest PER. You cannot say those things about that RHJ. If we don’t see that RHJ again, then fine, but you cannot say that he was ‘a total negative’ on offence, or that he ‘drives aimlessly to the hoop’ or that he ‘can’t shoot’. He showed over 68 games last season that that **** ain’t true.

thats part of the problem though... when RHJ is your leading scorer your offense is going to be poor. we were 29th in FG last year. 10th this year. im the biggest RHJ fan here other then mdb who is the only other guy who defended him last year. but he really isnt a better fit then dudley... i like that kenny is trying to use him some at center.

I don’t disagree with any of that (except that I’m RHJ’s biggest fan on here and have spent 2 years defending him against all comers). I also don’t necessarily agree that Dudley is a better fit than the RHJ we saw last year. While Dudley does space the floor, even though he isnt making his 3’s, last year’s RHJ is better at the 4 in every other category. Its a pity we haven’t seen that player yet.

[Prokorov]

Did you watch us play last season? If you did, you would have seen RHJ be our most consistent player. He was our 2nd leading scorer and had our 2nd highest PER. You cannot say those things about that RHJ. If we don’t see that RHJ again, then fine, but you cannot say that he was ‘a total negative’ on offence, or that he ‘drives aimlessly to the hoop’ or that he ‘can’t shoot’. He showed over 68 games last season that that **** ain’t true.

thats part of the problem though... when RHJ is your leading scorer your offense is going to be poor. we were 29th in FG last year. 10th this year. im the biggest RHJ fan here other then mdb who is the only other guy who defended him last year. but he really isnt a better fit then dudley... i like that kenny is trying to use him some at center.

I don’t disagree with any of that (except that I’m RHJ’s biggest fan on here and have spent 2 years defending him against all comers). I also don’t necessarily agree that Dudley is a better fit than the RHJ we saw last year. While Dudley does space the floor, even though he isnt making his 3’s, last year’s RHJ is better at the 4 in every other category. Its a pity we haven’t seen that player yet.

I think in an ideal world it works out like this....

1) Status Quo, Dudley starts and RHJ comes off the bench

2) RHJ gets his groove back and he and Ed Davis form a super hustle duo that does work on defense and the boards and with 3 gaurds/shooters next to them it works fine as a bench unit

3) Rodi's minutes ramp up to 10-12 minutes between now and the all-star game. He shines in those minutes and eats into dudleys

4) somewhere around game 55-65 Rodi becomes starter and dudley becomes like a player coach or backup PF games RHJ is hurt or we just need the spacing

[Prokorov]

However, I will agree that Dudley never tries to get out of his lane or out of pocket. He's a highly intelligent player. I like Dudley. I really do. But he's also not giving us anything outside of "floor spacing" and setting screens.

Take the leash off of Kurucs and ride with it. The kid can play. I'd rather lose games with him gaining experience over us losing games with him playing behind a 33 year old roleplayer in the last season of his NBA career.

Give me Russell/Dinwiddie/Harris/Kurucs/Allen until LeVert comes back, please.

Too me its less about losing games (you know i dont mind losing) and more about not briniging him on too quick or going outside their development plan to rush him into the rotation which could potentially lead to overinflated confidence or bad habits....

I think things are going so insanely well that it doesnt make sense to rush him in... Right now we are seeing our 3 gaurds + Jarrett allen all have career years and showing great improvement. keep whats working with that going.

the nets had a clear plan with levert and with jarrett alllen who both had to wait, prove it in practice and training and earn their starting spots (which took more then 6 or 7 games). Why just hand it to Rodi? especially when we have overachieved this year so far both from a wins and development stand point?

[MrDollarBills]

I don't think we should hand it to Rodi but he should not be getting DNP'd. No one on this team at PF is good enough to justify that.

Bringing him along slowly is not a bad idea but he needs to play. He's shown enough that we know he can at least handle NBA competition.

[JiggaMan06]

Just rewatched the game. I think KA has to take the blame for this L. We were up 12 with 5 minutes left in the 3rd. Great games by Allen and DLO. Sadly I'm starting to see what ppl mean when they say Dinwiddie doesn't run the offense well, he just gets the big to switch on him then attack downhill lol

[3pt_chucker]

Dinwiddie goes iso-heavy way too much. If he's finishing at the rim it works but when it's not its ugly because he starts going full hero ball