#5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

Iggy won the run-off with kawhi.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




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[KnickFan33]

kawhi

[Sixersftw]

Kawhi

[Hawk]

Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors

[kendogg]

hondo

[ReaLiez]

IDK if I am allowed to vote but my vote goes to Kawhi who's a DPOY and is known as a top 3 defender in the NBA when healthy
HM Hondo, Dr. J, Bowen, Battier, AK47 and Prince

[iggymcfrack]

Still voting for Battier. Arguably had a better peak than Kawhi with much better longevity.

[Threetimes10]

Battier peaked as high (or higher) and did it longer.

[cecilthesheep]

Kawhi Leonard. I value peak over longevity somewhat and Kawhi had the highest peak i've ever seen.

[trex_8063]

Again going to present some ranked and concise multi-modal stat/data/info comparisons for most of the top candidates for this spot plus the guy who just took #4, as well as several other persons of interest (some of whom perhaps should be among the primary candidates): Covington, Deng, Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, Bob Dandridge. For DVOR figures I've used the defensive splits of Estimated Impact for Hondo and Dandridge (likely less reliable than DRAPM, but any port in a storm for these older players).
Use this info [or not] as you wish......

All-Defensive Honors "Points" (awarding 1.5 pts for 1st Team selection, 1.0 for 2nd Team)
John Havlicek - 10.5 (*All-D honors only awarded his final 10 seasons)
Bruce Bowen - 10.5
Kawhi Leonard - 5.5
Tayshaun Prince - 4.0
Andrei Kirilenko - 3.5
Andre Iguodala - 2.5
Shane Battier - 2.0
Robert Covington - 1.5
Gerald Wallace - 1.5
Bob Dandridge - 1.5
Luol Deng - 1.0
Shawn Marion - 0!

DPOY Shares
Kawhi Leonard - 1.736 (2x winner)
Bruce Bowen - 1.514
Shane Battier - 0.548
Andrei Kirilenko - 0.366
Shawn Marion - 0.341
Gerald Wallace - 0.274
Andre Iguodala - 0.265
Tayshaun Prince - 0.112
Luol Deng - 0.082
Robert Covington - 0.024
**DPOY not awarded in Havlicek's and Dandridge’s career

Career DBPM (not including '19)
Andrei Kirilenko - +3.5
Kawhi Leonard - +2.7
Gerald Wallace - +2.3
Shawn Marion - +2.1
Shane Battier - +1.9
Bruce Bowen - +1.8
Andre Iguodala - +1.6
Robert Covington - +1.0
Luol Deng - +0.7
Tayshaun Prince - +0.2
*John Havlicek - +0.1 (*only available his final five seasons)
*Bob Dandridge - +0.1 (*not available his first four seasons)

Career DWS (not including '19)
John Havlicek - 74.1
Shawn Marion - 61.3
Andre Iguodala - 44.1
Luol Deng - 38.9
Shane Battier - 35.3
Gerald Wallace - 35.0
Andrei Kirilenko - 34.7
Bruce Bowen - 33.5
Bob Dandridge - 33.0
Tayshaun Prince - 28.0
Kawhi Leonard - 24.7
Robert Covington - 12.1

Defensive Value Over Replacement Level [-0.75] as measured by DRAPM (Defensive Estimated Impact for Havlicek/Dandridge)
CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement
Andre Iguodala - 94,380.5
Luol Deng - 77,700.0
John Havlicek - 74,340.75
Shane Battier - 73,682.5
Shawn Marion - 66,215.6
Gerald Wallace - 63,032.0
Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 40,306.35
Bob Dandridge - 32,717.5
Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5
Tayshaun Prince - 26,136.7
Robert Covington - 25,349.9

Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON
Andre Iguodala - 6,741.5
Shane Battier - 5,667.9
Luol Deng - 5,550.0
Robert Covington - 5,070.0
John Havlicek - 4,646.3
Gerald Wallace - 4,502.3
Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8
Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4
Shawn Marion - 4,138.5
Andrei Kirilenko - 3,100.5
Bob Dandridge - 2,516.7
Tayshaun Prince - 1,866.9

Best 5-years Averaged
Shane Battier - 10,586.0
Luol Deng - 9,658.2
Andre Iguodala - 9,456.6
Gerald Wallace - 8,470.9
Shawn Marion - 7,869.2
John Havlicek - 6,440.8
Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9
Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8
Andrei Kirilenko - 5,612.9
Robert Covington - 5,070.0
Tayshaun Prince - 4,917.2
Bob Dandridge - 4,219.1

Best Single-Season VOR
Luol Deng - 14,917.2
Shane Battier - 14,053.05
Shawn Marion - 12,713.65
Robert Covington - 12,254.9
Andre Iguodala - 11,810.75
Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2
Gerald Wallace - 10,760.55
Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2
Tayshaun Prince - 7,677.9
John Havlicek - 7,239.05
Andrei Kirilenko - 6,639.95
Bob Dandridge - 4,991.0

[trex_8063]

I'm voting Shane Battier here.

Will quote myself from the last thread (scouting report type comparison of him and Iguodala). This, combined with the other data I'd previously presented constitute my thinking on the matter.
fwiw, I'm beginning to think Luol Deng and Shawn Marion are deserving of consideration soon.

Iggy is listed as 6'6" and 215 lbs by both bbref and nba.com, 6'7" and 217 by DraftExpress.
Battier is listed 6'8" and 220 lbs by bbref, but 6'9" and 229 by DraftExpress.
Iggy has excellent reach for his height with a recorded 6'11" wingspan. Battier also has fairly long arms (not sure if has Iggy's span beat, but certainly good length/reach for his height). Couldn't find specific listings for their respective standing reaches, but I'd hazard a guess that Battier has Iguodala just marginally beat there, based on being ~2" taller and having somewhat long arms himself. And with roughly 5-10 lbs more mass, too, it's safe to say he's effectively the "bigger" SF.

However, Iguodala has clearly superior lateral quickness and is the more explosive leaper. And "pound-for-pound", I speculate that Iguodala may be marginally stronger, too (can't prove it, though).

Both are quite versatile defenders. Iguodala's combination of length, quickness, strength, and footwork enable him to effectively guard anything 1-4 (well, or at least as far as guarding "large" SF's---such as Lebron---very well). Battier, being bigger, can probably more effectively guard PF's, but his lateral quickness doesn't enable him to stay in front of most PG's (or some of the quicker SG's), though his length does aid him in "catching up" when he's beat. Gun to my head, I probably give Iguodala a very marginal edge in versatility, though it's debatable.

Stylistically, Iguodala looks better to me in on-ball pressure. He's much more physical in defending a dribbler: moves his feet well and stays in front, but also uses his body to bump and discourage his opponent. He's also got quick hands on those long arms, which he's constantly using to harass the dribble; consequently forces more turnovers than Battier.
Shane Battier, to my eye, plays a little "softer" [that is: less contact] on-ball, but is extremely intelligent as far as his positioning and footwork is concerned.
Looking at some of their box-based defensive production:
Iguodala has career averages of 2.3 steals, 0.7 blocks, 6.3 DRebs per 100 possessions.
Battier averaged 1.7 steals, 1.6 blocks, though only 4.9 DRebs per 100. That's a really high block avg from a SF, though from what I've seen of Battier I think a lot of his blocks come on jump-shooters. He gets a lot simply by being in good position and keeping a hand up (doesn't get burned in a "hand down, man down" situation often), because he's so long. To me, these are among the lowest value blocks (because jump-shots are the shots that are most likely to miss and be rebounded by the defensive team anyway). otoh, the fact that he's so "present" in contesting outside shots likely also means there are tons of shots he's reducing the accuracy of without coming up with a box-score tally (such as a block).
Overall, I feel like Battier's the better outside shot contester, but Iguodala is more generally disruptive. Both guys are very timely in their rotations and help assignments.


In terms of accolades from the media, it's more or less a wash, or at best a tiny edge to Battier: he's got a small-moderate edge in terms of DPOY shares, though Iguodala has the slimmest of edges in All-Defensive honors.

In terms of box-based defensive metrics, it's basically a wash (or at best a tiny edge to Iguodala):
Battier's got the marginally better DBPM (though Iggy's on more career minutes, fwiw). Iggy's got the small edge in DWS total. Both have a career 105 DRtg (Iggy's looks just marginally better in terms of rDRTG).

In terms of Value Over Replacement (via DRAPM), Battier looks to have the better single-season peak and the better top 5 seasons average. But then Iguodala's got the better overall average season and a comfortable edge in cumulative career DVOR.

[Samurai]

Voting for Bruce Bowen.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'm voting Battier. Need Kawhi to be around longer to rise up the list. Battier was a critical defensive piece for the Heat's two titles while he was there, and with him fading in 2014, their defense fell apart in the finals. This was the tail end of his career and he helped deliver two titles. I doubt either run is successful without his defense.

[pandrade83]

Hondo for reasons stated in last thread.

[Gibson22]

I'm voting for battier. The only 2 I have as significantly better than him (kirilenko and kawhi) have a big longevity disadvantage

[Gibson22]

kawhi and shane are tied at 5

[LA Bird]

Vote: Shane Battier
One of the best defensive SF peak statistically in the plus minus era and the only two guys ahead of him (Iguodala, Artest) have already been voted in. Battier had solid career longevity (much better than Kawhi) and I like his defense better than contemporaries such as Bowen/Kirilenko.

I might be looking at Havlicek next round just for somebody from a different time period. With Bowen, Kawhi and Kirilenko likely all getting voted in soon, I only just noticed the top defensive SF list is unusually, heavily dominated by wings from the 2000s. Maybe the relatively low efficiency of iso wings from those years have led us to overrate the defense of those SFs guarding them?

[Dr Positivity]

Battier is top 5 regular season if not top 3 based on his +/- data. However his impact is all largely subtle glue guy stuff. The weakness of RAPM has always been it's a regular season stat only and it's possible Battier not having another level of individual dominance as a defender hurts his case in playoffs compared to defenders like Kawhi and Bowen. The modern equivalent would be defenders like Patterson (pre knee surgery) and Crowder who have always been great DRPM players in regular season but in the playoffs the talent catches up to them on both ends. Battier is better than them and does have some individual moments like defending Kobe but it's from the same school of defense of players with average athleticism who are in the right spots. My guess is he has more consistent game to game defense than Bowen in the regular season while Bowen's impact is more dependent on whether there's a star to shut down. This however could give Bowen a higher ceiling in the playoffs. If the Cavs of the last two years had the choice of adding either Bowen or Battier my choice would be Bowen as having Bowen on Durant would be series changing. However to be fair there are also probably some playoff series against teams not driven by wings where Battier's help defense is more valuable than Bowen.

Kawhi is a dominant individual defender in every way at his peak but only for a few years. Nevertheless even outside of 2015 and 2016, 2012-2014 and 2017 are all pretty good on defense, and 2014 Finals is some of the best defense he's played

I rate AK below Kawhi since his longevity as an elite defender is not much longer and he is more of a great help guy than man to man. If Dr J was dominant it probably wasn't for long enough. PG has been in the league barely longer than Kawhi so he should be below him. Deng probably gets consideration from me soon as I think he has a case against Battier and Bowen types and is longevity friendly, but he has no votes right now anyways

Havlicek I just don't have the data for. A guy who plays really hard and is in everyone's face could be underrated by the media. Or he could on this l be the deserving #2 on this list. I do think he peaked on way weaker era for wings to stop

Vote Kawhi Leonard - I think highest ceiling and other above average years are enough here

[trex_8063]

Battier is top 5 regular season if not top 3 based on his +/- data. However his impact is all largely subtle glue guy stuff. The weakness of RAPM has always been it's a regular season stat only

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the bolded is correct (depending upon source). In fact, I was under the impression that most data-sets not only include consideration of the playoffs [unless specifically stated otherwise], but often even weight the playoff possessions more heavily [per possession]. EDIT: For example, ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt (my source for RAPM for '97-'00) specifically states each playoff possession is given twice the weight of a rs possession.

[penbeast0]

Watching them play, I was always more impressed with Bowen than Battier, though Battier was more cerebral and more versatile. However, since Battier and Leonard are the only ones getting traction, I do think Battier deserves the career value edge over Kawhi Leonard; Leonard just hasn't enough seasons at a top level yet to be ahead of Battier, Bowen, or Havlicek in my book though he has had some outstanding seasons.

Vote: Shane Battier