Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[FAH1223]

Bradley Beal has considerably more trade value for the Washington Wizards than John Wall.

"I think the Bradley Beal situation we'll monitor," said Adrian Wojnarowski. "There's very few teams who wouldn't be interested in Bradley Beal. The contract. The player. The age. 25 years old. His skill set. Shooting threes. I know Washington has fielded a lot of calls since last week,

"John Wall is a very different situation," said Wojnarowski. "You can count on one hand, and probably with just a couple of fingers places that really might have interest in taking his contract on and what it all means to bring him in.

"I would never say there's no market for John Wall, but I think Bradley Beal has a much broader market. But if Washington was going to do something, they would have to get every last asset they could for Bradley Beal."

Via Adrian Wojnarowski/ESPN

[truwizfan4evr]

wonder could kelly and a second rounder get us fultz?

[pcbothwel]

wonder could kelly and a second rounder get us fultz?

lol... of course he would.. But why would we trade the better, cheaper player and an asset

[Error Afflalo]

wonder could kelly and a second rounder get us fultz?

lol... of course he would.. But why would we trade the better, cheaper player and an asset

Because Oubre may be too expensive to keep around next summer and the idea of paying him big money is terrifying. He's been showing flashes here and there for years, but he's just not good.

[pcbothwel]

wonder could kelly and a second rounder get us fultz?

lol... of course he would.. But why would we trade the better, cheaper player and an asset

Because Oubre may be too expensive to keep around next summer and the idea of paying him big money is terrifying. He's been showing flashes here and there for years, but he's just not good.

His 'Flashes' are still better than whatever the hell Fultz is... Do you really think paying Fultz 10m next year is some bargain? Oubre probably gets the same-ish starting salary next year on his new contract.

Fultz has mental/maturity issues along with playing a position that REQUIRES you can shoot.
A PG that cant shoot in the modern NBA is the death nail to your team. It allows the opposing defense to get much more aggressive.

You can see how it already hurts Philly with Simmons, and he is a 6'10 freak... even look at us when Wall is going through a cold spell like the start of this year. Awful.

Oubre should be used in a package to cut salary along with Morris/Rivers. Sure, our team loses a little talent on paper, but we gain maturity in the locker room and financial flexibility when moving other pieces of our core 3 in rebuild.

[RodyTur10]

Besides Phoenix another team that could be interested in taking on Wall's contract might be the New York Knicks. These are my trade proposals, in which the Wizards get young lottery talent with either Josh Jackson or Frank Ntilikina (+ Mitchell Robinson).

To Washington: Josh Jackson, Ryan Anderson, De'Anthony Melton + '19 Milwaukee 1st (protected)
To Phoenix: John Wall, Markieff Morris

or

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

[Eli Babak]

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

Too good for us, but I'd love this trade. Dump Morris somewhere, tank the rest of the season and have fun next year with Ntilikina-Beal-Porter-Zion-Robinson (6th man Brown). + Sato, Bryant...

[nate33]

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

Interesting idea. By sending out Courtney Lee, Mitchell Robinson and Lance Thomas, the Knicks also send out $24M in bad 2019 contracts. That would help mitigate the financial pain of taking on Wall's $37M contract next year. They might still have room to sign a max free agent. Certainly, Durant might be intrigued by joining a team with Wall, Porzingis and a high 2019 pick.

This is just a pure salary dump for Wall though. And not even a very good one since they take on $24M in lousy 2019 contracts (plus Ntilikina at $5M which may or may not also be a bad deal depending on how he develops). And we're giving up Oubre for it is as well. Unless New York is throwing in a high pick, I'd rather take my chances with keeping Wall.

If nothing else, this type of deal could still be on the table in the summer. New York could sign Durant and then trade Lee plus Hardaway plus future picks for Wall. I don't see any sense of urgency for New York to do it now, and I don't see the Wizards outright dumping Wall for lousy 2019 contracts right now. They're better off shopping around for a while to see if they can do better.

[payitforward]

wonder could kelly and a second rounder get us fultz?

lol... of course he would.. But why would we trade the better, cheaper player and an asset

Because Oubre may be too expensive to keep around next summer and the idea of paying him big money is terrifying. He's been showing flashes here and there for years, but he's just not good.

Sigh... Oubre for Fultz adds $5.1m to our payroll this year. We're over the tax, so that would actually cost closer to what... $12-15m? Great idea....

Plus Fultz is owed almost $10m next year. We can't pay that. Period.

We have 5 guaranteed contracts for next year; they total $111,164,000. With Fultz, we would be at $121m for 6 players.

You want to move Oubre, trade him for picks. But the guy we need to trade is John Wall. Because we need to start over.

The guy that will get traded, however, won't be Wall. It'll be Beal.

[I_Like_Dirt]

If nothing else, this type of deal could still be on the table in the summer. New York could sign Durant and then trade Lee plus Hardaway plus future picks for Wall. I don't see any sense of urgency for New York to do it now, and I don't see the Wizards outright dumping Wall for lousy 2019 contracts right now. They're better off shopping around for a while to see if they can do better.

This particular trade doesn't work in the summer. Oubre will be essentially gone in the summer unless the Wizards want to keep him and an increased salary complicates his inclusion in any trade. The bigger issue, though, is that once Wall's extension kicks in, trading him because outrageously more difficult. Even with the more flexible trade rules from older CBAs, a $38 million contract is going to invariably involve a team sending out a massive chunk of its roster and potentially adding a bunch of salary in the process. There aren't that many contracts out there that fit the bill to make that kind of trade right now. If the Wizards don't trade Wall this season, I'm not convinced they find takers next offseason. They'd have to wait for another round of regrettable free agency signings and then the window to try and trade him opens up potentially in December of 2019.

I get the whole idea of waiting things out for better offers but it also becomes possible to simply wait everything out and then you're stuck with the team you see (or don't if you wisely turn your tv off and don't pay to watch a Grunfeldian product in person) for the duration of Wall's contract. Nothing we say here amounts to anything but the team really does need to starting moving on at some point and that starts with dumping EG followed by what may be some trades that we rationalize here as being good when they would have been torn to shreds if they were proposed as hypotheticals. I'm not holding my breath, though. EG is basically the managerial equivalent of herpes.

[queridiculo]

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

Interesting idea. By sending out Courtney Lee, Mitchell Robinson and Lance Thomas, the Knicks also send out $24M in bad 2019 contracts. That would help mitigate the financial pain of taking on Wall's $37M contract next year. They might still have room to sign a max free agent. Certainly, Durant might be intrigued by joining a team with Wall, Porzingis and a high 2019 pick.

This is just a pure salary dump for Wall though. And not even a very good one since they take on $24M in lousy 2019 contracts (plus Ntilikina at $5M which may or may not also be a bad deal depending on how he develops). And we're giving up Oubre for it is as well. Unless New York is throwing in a high pick, I'd rather take my chances with keeping Wall.

I'd make that deal and not think twice about.

Getting Mitchell more than makes up for the fact that the Knicks aren't including a pick and Oubre's contract status combined with his lack of progress as a player suppresses his value considerably. I have no problem including him as part of this deal.

Washington's salary cap position is not tenable, and keeping Wall around simply forces Washington to make a tough decision on either Porter or Beal down the line.

Long term the Wizards are better served selling low on Wall and putting their weight behind Porter and Beal.

That said, I really doubt you could compel the Knicks to include Robinson. The Knicks are really high on the kid and he's shown flashes of being an effective big in this league that can stretch the floor on offense and be an effective rim defender on defense.

[payitforward]

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

Interesting idea. By sending out Courtney Lee, Mitchell Robinson and Lance Thomas, the Knicks also send out $24M in bad 2019 contracts. That would help mitigate the financial pain of taking on Wall's $37M contract next year. They might still have room to sign a max free agent. Certainly, Durant might be intrigued by joining a team with Wall, Porzingis and a high 2019 pick.

This is just a pure salary dump for Wall though. And not even a very good one since they take on $24M in lousy 2019 contracts (plus Ntilikina at $5M which may or may not also be a bad deal depending on how he develops). And we're giving up Oubre for it is as well. Unless New York is throwing in a high pick, I'd rather take my chances with keeping Wall.

If nothing else, this type of deal could still be on the table in the summer. New York could sign Durant and then trade Lee plus Hardaway plus future picks for Wall. I don't see any sense of urgency for New York to do it now, and I don't see the Wizards outright dumping Wall for lousy 2019 contracts right now. They're better off shopping around for a while to see if they can do better.

?
Thomas is non-guaranteed for next year. Robinson is obviously a tremendous bargain, & he's under contract through June '22. Ntilikena has been awful, but he just turned 20 in July & his contract never gets awful.

Courtney Lee is a solid & serviceable player. He'd be overpaid for a year -- but that's not enough of a down side to pass on a deal that would move @$150m of guaranteed salary & allow us to rebuild.

[nate33]

If nothing else, this type of deal could still be on the table in the summer. New York could sign Durant and then trade Lee plus Hardaway plus future picks for Wall. I don't see any sense of urgency for New York to do it now, and I don't see the Wizards outright dumping Wall for lousy 2019 contracts right now. They're better off shopping around for a while to see if they can do better.

This particular trade doesn't work in the summer. Oubre will be essentially gone in the summer unless the Wizards want to keep him and an increased salary complicates his inclusion in any trade. The bigger issue, though, is that once Wall's extension kicks in, trading him because outrageously more difficult. Even with the more flexible trade rules from older CBAs, a $38 million contract is going to invariably involve a team sending out a massive chunk of its roster and potentially adding a bunch of salary in the process. There aren't that many contracts out there that fit the bill to make that kind of trade right now. If the Wizards don't trade Wall this season, I'm not convinced they find takers next offseason. They'd have to wait for another round of regrettable free agency signings and then the window to try and trade him opens up potentially in December of 2019.

I get the whole idea of waiting things out for better offers but it also becomes possible to simply wait everything out and then you're stuck with the team you see (or don't if you wisely turn your tv off and don't pay to watch a Grunfeldian product in person) for the duration of Wall's contract. Nothing we say here amounts to anything but the team really does need to starting moving on at some point and that starts with dumping EG followed by what may be some trades that we rationalize here as being good when they would have been torn to shreds if they were proposed as hypotheticals. I'm not holding my breath, though. EG is basically the managerial equivalent of herpes.

I said this type of deal would be possible this summer, not this exact deal.

Basically, the proposed deal is Wall for shorter bad contracts plus Ntilikina (who may or may not be characterized as marginally better than a "bad contract"). It's not a particularly attractive offer for Wall. It's a last resort, desperation type of deal.

The same type of deal could be on the table next summer - Wall for shorter, bad contracts. Next summer, the basis of the deal would be Wall for Lee + Hardaway. That works under the salary cap. It's the same basic concept. I figure it makes more sense then because from the Wizards perspective, if Wall is still here in the summer, it likely means that there weren't any more attractive offers out there. And from the Knicks perspective, they can first see how free agency goes with Durant, and then make this Wall trade as a means of finding a 3rd star to join Durant/Porzingis, or as a means to add a star player to join Porzingis and put butts in seats. (Actually, if they strike out in free agency, they could absorb Wall into their salary and not give up Hardaway if they would prefer to keep him.)

I just think trade talks between these two teams make more sense later once both teams have a better sense of where they are going.

[nate33]

To Washington: Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Frank Ntilikina, Mitchell Robinson
To New York: John Wall, Jason Smith, Kelly Oubre

Interesting idea. By sending out Courtney Lee, Mitchell Robinson and Lance Thomas, the Knicks also send out $24M in bad 2019 contracts. That would help mitigate the financial pain of taking on Wall's $37M contract next year. They might still have room to sign a max free agent. Certainly, Durant might be intrigued by joining a team with Wall, Porzingis and a high 2019 pick.

This is just a pure salary dump for Wall though. And not even a very good one since they take on $24M in lousy 2019 contracts (plus Ntilikina at $5M which may or may not also be a bad deal depending on how he develops). And we're giving up Oubre for it is as well. Unless New York is throwing in a high pick, I'd rather take my chances with keeping Wall.

If nothing else, this type of deal could still be on the table in the summer. New York could sign Durant and then trade Lee plus Hardaway plus future picks for Wall. I don't see any sense of urgency for New York to do it now, and I don't see the Wizards outright dumping Wall for lousy 2019 contracts right now. They're better off shopping around for a while to see if they can do better.

?
Thomas is non-guaranteed for next year. Robinson is obviously a tremendous bargain, & he's under contract through June '22. Ntilikena has been awful, but he just turned 20 in July & his contract never gets awful.

Courtney Lee is a solid & serviceable player. He'd be overpaid for a year -- but that's not enough of a down side to pass on a deal that would move @$150m of guaranteed salary & allow us to rebuild.

I must confess, I haven't watched the Knicks enough to know much about Mitchell Robinson. I just checked his stats and saw that he played just 19 minutes a game and didn't look deeper. I see now that his per minute numbers are strong, and he is very young so I take back my criticisms. He's a legit young prospect and represents the value that makes the deal more than merely a salary dump.

I also didn't realize that Lance Thomas' deal was non guaranteed and effectively an expiring contract.

Nevermind then. I like the deal! Of course, queridiculo is probably right in that the Knicks wouldn't include Robinson.

[nate33]

If nothing else, it looks like the Knicks could be a viable option next year if we can't move Wall this year. I could definitely see them having interest in Wall after making a play in free agency, and they have the contracts as trade ballast (Lee and Hardaway).

[pcbothwel]

If nothing else, it looks like the Knicks could be a viable option next year if we can't move Wall this year. I could definitely see them having interest in Wall after making a play in free agency, and they have the contracts as trade ballast (Lee and Hardaway).

See Nate, this is exactly why I wouldnt trade any of our core three this year. Sure, if the right trade came along I would, but I dont see it.
Next summer, you have teams that not only have cap space, but NEED to use it and NOW.
Teams like Kings, Mavs, Hawks, Bulls, Magic, and Suns MIGHT be able to strike out in FA and move on...
But then you also have the Clippers, Lakers, Nets, Sixers, and Knicks that are all some combo of big market/ready to compete NOW.

Could you imagine the blood bath that would ensue of Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Kemba and KD all resign (KKKKK...its a sign..lol)
... I actually think only KD leaves, which means demand will far outweigh supply

If Butler stays too...dear god. That would mean there are about 15 "Max spots" available and the FA class would consist of Boogie, KD, Millsap, Tobias Harris, Tyreke Evans...KCP?

The key for us is how to proceed forward into that sellers market...
Again, shipping out Oubre along with 2 of Morris/Rivers/Smith can get us under the tax and provide a spark to the team. It also opens up more minutes for Sato & Brown.

I fully expect Wall to play quite Well and Beal to do the same. Otto looks to slowly but surely getting his mojo back and all 3 will be viable pieces this summer.

[nate33]

If nothing else, it looks like the Knicks could be a viable option next year if we can't move Wall this year. I could definitely see them having interest in Wall after making a play in free agency, and they have the contracts as trade ballast (Lee and Hardaway).

See Nate, this is exactly why I wouldnt trade any of our core three this year. Sure, if the right trade came along I would, but I dont see it.
Next summer, you have teams that not only have cap space, but NEED to use it and NOW.
Teams like Kings, Mavs, Hawks, Bulls, Magic, and Suns MIGHT be able to strike out in FA and move on...
But then you also have the Clippers, Lakers, Nets, Sixers, and Knicks that are all some combo of big market/ready to compete NOW.

Could you imagine the blood bath that would ensue of Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Kemba and KD all resign (KKKKK...its a sign..lol)
... I actually think only KD leaves, which means demand will far outweigh supply

If Butler stays too...dear god. That would mean there are about 15 "Max spots" available and the FA class would consist of Boogie, KD, Millsap, Tobias Harris, Tyreke Evans...KCP?

The key for us is how to proceed forward into that sellers market...
Again, shipping out Oubre along with 2 of Morris/Rivers/Smith can get us under the tax and provide a spark to the team. It also opens up more minutes for Sato & Brown.

I fully expect Wall to play quite Well and Beal to do the same. Otto looks to slowly but surely getting his mojo back and all 3 will be viable pieces this summer.

This is a strong point. At the very least, the Wizards shouldn't settle for a lousy deal this year. Trading Wall just for cap relief is likely to be an option this summer, so if somebody wants him now, it will require cap relief AND a good asset.

That said, if we can get cap relief and a good asset for Wall right now, I'd still prefer that to waiting for the summer because by doing so now, we can also commit to tanking and get ourselves another high pick.

[Ruzious]

The Clippers might be a target for Wall or Beal - especially considering Lou Williams and Patrick Beverly can play either guard position. The targets for the Wiz would be Jerome Robinson and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander - both late lotto picks from the last draft - the backcourt of the future - both on the skinny side. Filler would be Avery Bradley - who's having a lousy season. Clipps are full of good players, but they don't have a star attraction.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I said this type of deal would be possible this summer, not this exact deal.

Basically, the proposed deal is Wall for shorter bad contracts plus Ntilikina (who may or may not be characterized as marginally better than a "bad contract"). It's not a particularly attractive offer for Wall. It's a last resort, desperation type of deal.

The same type of deal could be on the table next summer - Wall for shorter, bad contracts. Next summer, the basis of the deal would be Wall for Lee + Hardaway. That works under the salary cap. It's the same basic concept. I figure it makes more sense then because from the Wizards perspective, if Wall is still here in the summer, it likely means that there weren't any more attractive offers out there. And from the Knicks perspective, they can first see how free agency goes with Durant, and then make this Wall trade as a means of finding a 3rd star to join Durant/Porzingis, or as a means to add a star player to join Porzingis and put butts in seats. (Actually, if they strike out in free agency, they could absorb Wall into their salary and not give up Hardaway if they would prefer to keep him.)

I just think trade talks between these two teams make more sense later once both teams have a better sense of where they are going.

The same kind of offer might be available in the offseason but it's way tougher to make it work the bigger Wall's salary gets. I'm not so sure the Knicks are interested in making that trade without Oubre and with Hardaway instead of Thomas. Hardaway is an awful defender but he's also a reasonably good offensive player who gets dumped on way, too much. That said, if the Knicks strike out in free agency entirely maybe they move Lee and Thomas with cap space for Wall. I'm not so sure there are going to be that many teams lining up to make that kind of trade this offseason as you think. There really aren't that many awful contracts that fit the scale of Wall's. If the Knicks get Durant... maybe. I wouldn't bank on the Knicks getting Durant any more than I'd have banked on the Wizards getting Durant in his previous free agency. The Suns could trade Ryan Anderson and cap space, maybe. The market looks really dry out there, though.


And waiting... it's a bit of a double-edged sword. If things go really wrong for the Wizards this season teams who might trade for Wall might reconsider. Another Wall injury or a bunch of player infighting (not unheard of where Wall is concerned) and teams might decide they're better off without him. And this isn't to say that I think Wall should be moved immediately. The real is dumping Ernie and hiring a competent replacement. I just think overstating the value of the potential return where he's concerned is a recipe for more Ernie-type treadmill shenanigans.

Really, that's the state of Wizards fandom at this point. Waiting for Ernie to be fired is the equivalent of waiting for Godot.

[nate33]

The Clippers might be a target for Wall or Beal - especially considering Lou Williams and Patrick Beverly can play either guard position. The targets for the Wiz would be Jerome Robinson and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander - both late lotto picks from the last draft - the backcourt of the future - both on the skinny side. Filler would be Avery Bradley - who's having a lousy season. Clipps are full of good players, but they don't have a star attraction.

The Clippers have the best record in the league at the moment. I doubt they'll break that up. At least not right now.