PG Thread: On the flipside, even though what we do is wrong, there's levels to this tank. The truth!(remi recap pg 19)

[j4remi]

They just do it with 8 less passes, is all.

When Gaines did that break down of all Frank's possessions on the court in the first half vs the Pistons, something that slipped under the radar because of the Frank focus was that Gaines mentioned in 8 out of 24 possessions, the primary ball handler didn't make a single pass.

1/3rd of the time in that sample, the second unit took a shot without passing the ball.

[taj2133]

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[Ray Williams]

a real offense...

More passes on 1 possession than we make in an entire quarter

[Strick]

They just do it with 8 less passes, is all.

When Gaines did that break down of all Frank's possessions on the court in the first half vs the Pistons, something that slipped under the radar because of the Frank focus was that Gaines mentioned in 8 out of 24 possessions, the primary ball handler didn't make a single pass.

1/3rd of the time in that sample, the second unit took a shot without passing the ball.

But why does this matter whatsoever to Frank and Knox? They have to want it. Trier is an UDFA and he wants it. They just don't have it. Frank is soft and scared of the ball

Green font

[prophet_of_rage]

why would a free agent want to come here?

How can Fiz sell a FA to NY if he can't even sell an offensive philosophy?

Why implement a system next year and deal with the lumps of it even if a FA comes in? Why not do it now?

Because there is no roster right now. That's why.

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[Phish Tank]

why would a free agent want to come here?

How can Fiz sell a FA to NY if he can't even sell an offensive philosophy?

Why implement a system next year and deal with the lumps of it even if a FA comes in? Why not do it now?

Because there is no roster right now. That's why.

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you exactly made my point on 1) and 2).

But you can develop a system without having talent on your team so that when a FA comes to our team, we can work with the system.

Why develop it in one offseason when we can get a head start now?

[thebuzzardman]

a real offense...

Look at that ball movement

You know that's the same offence we have ... dribble pitch, hand off, try to find a shot. We just don't have passers, rollers, screeners or finishers. We have THard as Kawhi, Mudiay as Lowry, Knox as Green, Mitch as Serge, Kanter as JV and Vonleh as Siakam. See the major difference?

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Rightttttt. It's only the talent level that keeps the team from throwing a pass or making a cut.

[prophet_of_rage]

Look at that ball movement

You know that's the same offence we have ... dribble pitch, hand off, try to find a shot. We just don't have passers, rollers, screeners or finishers. We have THard as Kawhi, Mudiay as Lowry, Knox as Green, Mitch as Serge, Kanter as JV and Vonleh as Siakam. See the major difference?

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Rightttttt. It's only the talent level that keeps the team from throwing a pass or making a cut.

Yes, it is. THard only wants to shoot. Burke only wants to shoot. Kanter only wants to post up. Zo only wants to look for himself. Then the rest are spot up shooters. Yeah, we look a bad Houston team right now. They don't cut or screen away either. At best they exchange, but mostly stay spaced out. We got bums out here fighting for contracts. There will be no fluidity until that is sorted.

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[thebuzzardman]

You know that's the same offence we have ... dribble pitch, hand off, try to find a shot. We just don't have passers, rollers, screeners or finishers. We have THard as Kawhi, Mudiay as Lowry, Knox as Green, Mitch as Serge, Kanter as JV and Vonleh as Siakam. See the major difference?

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Rightttttt. It's only the talent level that keeps the team from throwing a pass or making a cut.

Yes, it is. THard only wants to shoot. Burke only wants to shoot. Kanter only wants to post up. Zo only wants to look for himself. Then the rest are spot up shooters. Yeah, we look a bad Houston team right now. They don't cut or screen away either. At best they exchange, but mostly stay spaced out. We got bums out here fighting for contracts. There will be no fluidity until that is sorted.

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Or the coach could enforce the correct way to play by showing player the bench when they don't play it.

This IS his system. One pass (or none) and chuck.

[prophet_of_rage]

Rightttttt. It's only the talent level that keeps the team from throwing a pass or making a cut.

Yes, it is. THard only wants to shoot. Burke only wants to shoot. Kanter only wants to post up. Zo only wants to look for himself. Then the rest are spot up shooters. Yeah, we look a bad Houston team right now. They don't cut or screen away either. At best they exchange, but mostly stay spaced out. We got bums out here fighting for contracts. There will be no fluidity until that is sorted.

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Or the coach could enforce the correct way to play by showing player the bench when they don't play it.

This IS his system. One pass (or none) and chuck.

His system is a motion offence which gives players decision making powers just like Toronto, Golden State, Miami .... So the rule isn't one pass shot because it wasn't like this in Memphis. The players' decisions are shoot shoot shoot. I don't know if you've ever coached high level kids but that's how they start out generally. Special players have passing instincts.

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[GONYK]

Yes, it is. THard only wants to shoot. Burke only wants to shoot. Kanter only wants to post up. Zo only wants to look for himself. Then the rest are spot up shooters. Yeah, we look a bad Houston team right now. They don't cut or screen away either. At best they exchange, but mostly stay spaced out. We got bums out here fighting for contracts. There will be no fluidity until that is sorted.

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Or the coach could enforce the correct way to play by showing player the bench when they don't play it.

This IS his system. One pass (or none) and chuck.

His system is a motion offence which gives players decision making powers just like Toronto, Golden State, Miami .... So the rule isn't one pass shot because it wasn't like this in Memphis. The players' decisions are shoot shoot shoot. I don't know if you've ever coached high level kids but that's how they start out generally. Special players have passing instincts.

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You are removing all sense of accountability from the coach. What is his job if not to reinforce the behaviors he wants with discipline and playing time?

[prophet_of_rage]

Or the coach could enforce the correct way to play by showing player the bench when they don't play it.

This IS his system. One pass (or none) and chuck.

His system is a motion offence which gives players decision making powers just like Toronto, Golden State, Miami .... So the rule isn't one pass shot because it wasn't like this in Memphis. The players' decisions are shoot shoot shoot. I don't know if you've ever coached high level kids but that's how they start out generally. Special players have passing instincts.

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You are removing all sense of accountability from the coach. What is his job if not to reinforce the behaviors he wants with discipline and playing time?

He has no accountability except to deliver a draft pick and teach the players to compete. You're not teaching offence or accountability switching lineups every five games. You're not building continuity. You're giving everybody a chance to look good, build their value and lose without tanking.

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[thebuzzardman]

His system is a motion offence which gives players decision making powers just like Toronto, Golden State, Miami .... So the rule isn't one pass shot because it wasn't like this in Memphis. The players' decisions are shoot shoot shoot. I don't know if you've ever coached high level kids but that's how they start out generally. Special players have passing instincts.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

You are removing all sense of accountability from the coach. What is his job if not to reinforce the behaviors he wants with discipline and playing time?

He has no accountability except to deliver a draft pick and teach the players to compete. You're not teaching offence or accountability switching lineups every five games. You're not building continuity. You're giving everybody a chance to look good, build their value and lose without tanking.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

I'm going to have to disagree in part. Coaches use accountability to accomplish his/the organization's goals, basically like almost any boss, but really obviously in sports. And the clearest accountability path in the NBA is playing time. Not fines. Not yelling. Playing.

THJr and Burke are pretty much not passing at all. Sure, each had a high assist game, but for the most part it's high usage shooting, ball handling shooting, with little passing. Same for Zo', though his passing a little more lately. And is more efficient in his iso game. Not only is he not criticized, but Fiz lauds him for it and gave him (k)nickname for it. He's also let some players (almost all) play through some obviously bad defense. We know the obvious candidates: THJr, Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Kanter...to an extent Knox. Burke tries hard though. THJr has had effort games and other times he's not that engaged. Mudiay is come and go on defense. Kanter, Mario and Knox are horrible.

Things I've learned about Fiz:

He talks a lot
He says things that in blatant contradiction to each other, if you pay attention even a little
He's into defense
Not that into defensive accountability of players in game (I'll assume he brings it up in tape review)
Like a heavy iso offense
Not that concerned if the ball gets shared
Not that into accountability on the offensive side of the ball (yes, I've seen him call a timeout or two over botched plays)

Small sample size, he might be awesome, yes the personnel matter, but it's hardly the majority reason for it.

Hey, simple offensive systems can be great with all star personnel. What did D'Antoni do in Phoenix but run the 1/5 P&R with the other 3 players spread out ALL GAME LONG. Of course it took D'Antoni about 12 years and his 3rd pro coaching stop to be a coach who adjusted to the players he has, instead of his system.

[prophet_of_rage]

You are removing all sense of accountability from the coach. What is his job if not to reinforce the behaviors he wants with discipline and playing time?

He has no accountability except to deliver a draft pick and teach the players to compete. You're not teaching offence or accountability switching lineups every five games. You're not building continuity. You're giving everybody a chance to look good, build their value and lose without tanking.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

I'm going to have to disagree in part. Coaches use accountability to accomplish his/the organization's goals, basically like almost any boss, but really obviously in sports. And the clearest accountability path in the NBA is playing time. Not fines. Not yelling. Playing.

THJr and Burke are pretty much not passing at all. Sure, each had a high assist game, but for the most part it's high usage shooting, ball handling shooting, with little passing. Same for Zo', though his passing a little more lately. And is more efficient in his iso game. Not only is he not criticized, but Fiz lauds him for it and gave him (k)nickname for it. He's also let some players (almost all) play through some obviously bad defense. We know the obvious candidates: THJr, Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Kanter...to an extent Knox. Burke tries hard though. THJr has had effort games and other times he's not that engaged. Mudiay is come and go on defense. Kanter, Mario and Knox are horrible.

Things I've learned about Fiz:

He talks a lot
He says things that in blatant contradiction to each other, if you pay attention even a little
He's into defense
Not that into defensive accountability of players in game (I'll assume he brings it up in tape review)
Like a heavy iso offense
Not that concerned if the ball gets shared
Not that into accountability on the offensive side of the ball (yes, I've seen him call a timeout or two over botched plays)

Small sample size, he might be awesome, yes the personnel matter, but it's hardly the majority reason for it.

Hey, simple offensive systems can be great with all star personnel. What did D'Antoni do in Phoenix but run the 1/5 P&R with the other 3 players spread out ALL GAME LONG. Of course it took D'Antoni about 12 years and his 3rd pro coaching stop to be a coach who adjusted to the players he has, instead of his system.

D'Antoni adjusted? And does Fiz have all stars? Right now he is development mode. The players are getting better, Frank be damned. He'll get up to the offensive part.

[thebuzzardman]

He has no accountability except to deliver a draft pick and teach the players to compete. You're not teaching offence or accountability switching lineups every five games. You're not building continuity. You're giving everybody a chance to look good, build their value and lose without tanking.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

I'm going to have to disagree in part. Coaches use accountability to accomplish his/the organization's goals, basically like almost any boss, but really obviously in sports. And the clearest accountability path in the NBA is playing time. Not fines. Not yelling. Playing.

THJr and Burke are pretty much not passing at all. Sure, each had a high assist game, but for the most part it's high usage shooting, ball handling shooting, with little passing. Same for Zo', though his passing a little more lately. And is more efficient in his iso game. Not only is he not criticized, but Fiz lauds him for it and gave him (k)nickname for it. He's also let some players (almost all) play through some obviously bad defense. We know the obvious candidates: THJr, Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Kanter...to an extent Knox. Burke tries hard though. THJr has had effort games and other times he's not that engaged. Mudiay is come and go on defense. Kanter, Mario and Knox are horrible.

Things I've learned about Fiz:

He talks a lot
He says things that in blatant contradiction to each other, if you pay attention even a little
He's into defense
Not that into defensive accountability of players in game (I'll assume he brings it up in tape review)
Like a heavy iso offense
Not that concerned if the ball gets shared
Not that into accountability on the offensive side of the ball (yes, I've seen him call a timeout or two over botched plays)

Small sample size, he might be awesome, yes the personnel matter, but it's hardly the majority reason for it.

Hey, simple offensive systems can be great with all star personnel. What did D'Antoni do in Phoenix but run the 1/5 P&R with the other 3 players spread out ALL GAME LONG. Of course it took D'Antoni about 12 years and his 3rd pro coaching stop to be a coach who adjusted to the players he has, instead of his system.

D'Antoni adjusted? And does Fiz have all stars? Right now he is development mode. The players are getting better, Frank be damned. He'll get up to the offensive part.

Where's Frank in this post, other than in your head?

You don't need all stars to have some movement on offense. See the Nets. Obviously, more players together there for a couple of years. Right now, the offense is pretty stagnant. There was "some" ball movement yesterday. Winning obscures some things too. There was a point for like 7 minutes in the 4th where they barely scored and had a string of subpar offensive possession. The part of the game where they had cut it from down 16 to down 3, then went back to down 14. Listen, they fought all game and played their way out of it - that's good. And the defense is good, some individual players aside. But the offense is extremely basic. Sure, Fiz has said it's "simple now" but will evolve later. Maybe. Probably. But not definitely.
Obviously it could be work in progress, it could need development. Then again, waiting on things to develop isn't a big thing on this board, but hot takes are. I like to get with the program of how things are.

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm going to have to disagree in part. Coaches use accountability to accomplish his/the organization's goals, basically like almost any boss, but really obviously in sports. And the clearest accountability path in the NBA is playing time. Not fines. Not yelling. Playing.

THJr and Burke are pretty much not passing at all. Sure, each had a high assist game, but for the most part it's high usage shooting, ball handling shooting, with little passing. Same for Zo', though his passing a little more lately. And is more efficient in his iso game. Not only is he not criticized, but Fiz lauds him for it and gave him (k)nickname for it. He's also let some players (almost all) play through some obviously bad defense. We know the obvious candidates: THJr, Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Kanter...to an extent Knox. Burke tries hard though. THJr has had effort games and other times he's not that engaged. Mudiay is come and go on defense. Kanter, Mario and Knox are horrible.

Things I've learned about Fiz:

He talks a lot
He says things that in blatant contradiction to each other, if you pay attention even a little
He's into defense
Not that into defensive accountability of players in game (I'll assume he brings it up in tape review)
Like a heavy iso offense
Not that concerned if the ball gets shared
Not that into accountability on the offensive side of the ball (yes, I've seen him call a timeout or two over botched plays)

Small sample size, he might be awesome, yes the personnel matter, but it's hardly the majority reason for it.

Hey, simple offensive systems can be great with all star personnel. What did D'Antoni do in Phoenix but run the 1/5 P&R with the other 3 players spread out ALL GAME LONG. Of course it took D'Antoni about 12 years and his 3rd pro coaching stop to be a coach who adjusted to the players he has, instead of his system.

D'Antoni adjusted? And does Fiz have all stars? Right now he is development mode. The players are getting better, Frank be damned. He'll get up to the offensive part.

Where's Frank in this post, other than in your head?

You don't need all stars to have some movement on offense. See the Nets. Obviously, more players together there for a couple of years. Right now, the offense is pretty stagnant. There was "some" ball movement yesterday. Winning obscures some things too. There was a point for like 7 minutes in the 4th where they barely scored and had a string of subpar offensive possession. The part of the game where they had cut it from down 16 to down 3, then went back to down 14. Listen, they fought all game and played their way out of it - that's good. And the defense is good, some individual players aside. But the offense is extremely basic. Sure, Fiz has said it's "simple now" but will evolve later. Maybe. Probably. But not definitely.
Obviously it could be work in progress, it could need development. Then again, waiting on things to develop isn't a big thing on this board, but hot takes are. I like to get with the program of how things are.

Frank be damned means Frank is probably the exception to the rule the players are getting better under Fiz.

Right now they Re learning and honing their individual skills. Then they will be melded into a team. So you're seeing the individual phase of the development.

The Nets have way more proven vets than we do. They are a different beast. Don't think Dimwiddie wasn't tossing it up and up and up last year to get his. He was.

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[prophet_of_rage]

I'm going to have to disagree in part. Coaches use accountability to accomplish his/the organization's goals, basically like almost any boss, but really obviously in sports. And the clearest accountability path in the NBA is playing time. Not fines. Not yelling. Playing.

THJr and Burke are pretty much not passing at all. Sure, each had a high assist game, but for the most part it's high usage shooting, ball handling shooting, with little passing. Same for Zo', though his passing a little more lately. And is more efficient in his iso game. Not only is he not criticized, but Fiz lauds him for it and gave him (k)nickname for it. He's also let some players (almost all) play through some obviously bad defense. We know the obvious candidates: THJr, Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Kanter...to an extent Knox. Burke tries hard though. THJr has had effort games and other times he's not that engaged. Mudiay is come and go on defense. Kanter, Mario and Knox are horrible.

Things I've learned about Fiz:

He talks a lot
He says things that in blatant contradiction to each other, if you pay attention even a little
He's into defense
Not that into defensive accountability of players in game (I'll assume he brings it up in tape review)
Like a heavy iso offense
Not that concerned if the ball gets shared
Not that into accountability on the offensive side of the ball (yes, I've seen him call a timeout or two over botched plays)

Small sample size, he might be awesome, yes the personnel matter, but it's hardly the majority reason for it.

Hey, simple offensive systems can be great with all star personnel. What did D'Antoni do in Phoenix but run the 1/5 P&R with the other 3 players spread out ALL GAME LONG. Of course it took D'Antoni about 12 years and his 3rd pro coaching stop to be a coach who adjusted to the players he has, instead of his system.

D'Antoni adjusted? And does Fiz have all stars? Right now he is development mode. The players are getting better, Frank be damned. He'll get up to the offensive part.

Where's Frank in this post, other than in your head?

You don't need all stars to have some movement on offense. See the Nets. Obviously, more players together there for a couple of years. Right now, the offense is pretty stagnant. There was "some" ball movement yesterday. Winning obscures some things too. There was a point for like 7 minutes in the 4th where they barely scored and had a string of subpar offensive possession. The part of the game where they had cut it from down 16 to down 3, then went back to down 14. Listen, they fought all game and played their way out of it - that's good. And the defense is good, some individual players aside. But the offense is extremely basic. Sure, Fiz has said it's "simple now" but will evolve later. Maybe. Probably. But not definitely.
Obviously it could be work in progress, it could need development. Then again, waiting on things to develop isn't a big thing on this board, but hot takes are. I like to get with the program of how things are.

Things right now are crap. We all know that. There ain't a damn thing to see in rebuilding except a foundation being dug. That's what we're seeing now.

If the rest of the building doesn't meet code then condemn Fiz like he's Fred Hoiberg. Not now. He is doing his teardown and remodel job pretty well.

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[thebuzzardman]

Wiz tonight. They could be another unnecessary win. They kind of suck.

[K_ick_God]

Wiz tonight. They could be another unnecessary win. They kind of suck.

We've already been an 8th seed that got all the way to the Finals, and we're showing we can play with the best teams in our conference. Yep I said it.

[prophet_of_rage]

Wiz tonight. They could be another unnecessary win. They kind of suck.

We've already been an 8th seed that got all the way to the Finals, and we're showing we can play with the best teams in our conference. Yep I said it.

The 99 Knicks were an 8th seed in name only.