Knicks featured on latest "The Ringer" Podcast

[Adelheid]

How do you get someone to play harder?

i don't have the answer and that was exactly why he was well down on my list for who the knicks should pick at that spot but they knew about his lack of effort in college...this wasn't new information. So if they didn't believe they could fix him, why in gods good name would they pick him?

I have no idea why they picked Knox. The silly hype over him chucking in summer league didnt help matters either.

He destroyed fellow draftee Bridges (?) during the predraft workout. Of course it could just be one of the many reasons.

[Dr. Detfink]

The moment Mudiay was traded to the Knicks, I KNEW Frank Ntilikina was in trouble.

Fizdale was picked for his pliability with the front office.
Note Mudiay and Mario in the starting lineup, which is where they will stay for the rest of the year.


Fizdale is to the Knicks as Aaron Boone is to the Yanks.

Geezus. That was harsh but I can’t deny what
You said.

[thebuzzardman]

Kind of a side note, I’m really curious on the people bemoaning the iso-iso for more team oriented ball & more focus on a play set format.

Are you the same ones who want Durant? Because if you are, you’re going to be extremely disappointed in the case he comes here.

The Warriors iso as much as the current Knicks? News to me.

And yeah, I get all big time scorers will iso

Less about GS & more about KD.

Agreed. The gravity of their success and the mindset of their stars forces a certain level of conformity

[jvsimonetti0514]

You guys will believe anything you hear. It's easy to look at the team and claim we are high on Trier and Robinson and not on Frank and Knox given the former two are playing well. Hezonja experiment feeling like a disappointment? Shocking revelation. A 5 year old could see that. Why would an organization be down on their recent pick when he's basically played 10 games (after his ankle injury). Now some are upset we took him? The impatience is insane.

I don't even think they're down on the pick. The Ringer guys are down on the pick. The team were just talking up Trier and Robinson.

So, in other words when the guys on the podcast say the org doesn't like both guys, you'll run with "For Frank, TRUTH!" but then for Knox "Oh, it's these podcast guys"

Interesting.

I don’t think you actually listened to the podcast because you’d know they never said those words.

[thebuzzardman]

I don't even think they're down on the pick. The Ringer guys are down on the pick. The team were just talking up Trier and Robinson.

So, in other words when the guys on the podcast say the org doesn't like both guys, you'll run with "For Frank, TRUTH!" but then for Knox "Oh, it's these podcast guys"

Interesting.

I don’t think you actually listened to the podcast because you’d know they never said those words.

Seems like your cherry picking from a dubious source when the take fits being down on a player you don't like, but not so down on a player you enjoy. They both suck right now.

[thebuzzardman]

Speaking of TheRinger podcasts, Bill Simmons tossed out an interesting proposal on his pod:

Tim Hardaway Jr for Wes Matthews’ contract

Case for NYK
- obvious

Case for Dallas
- The west is a muddled mess and they have no incentive to tank since they traded pick to get Doncic
- Doncic is more suited to play for a veteran laden team so it makes some sense to acquire good vets sooner than later
- THJR is pretty good

Welp, they lost me at the bolded part

He's 16th in the NBA in PPG and 17th out of 438 players in offensive RPM (and he's 26 years old). I certainly think he qualifies as "pretty good."

PPG is a function of volume of shots on a pathetic team where he has a 100% green light to engage in the kinds of shot selection that gets most NBA players a trip to the bench.
Don't get me wrong - he drives more than he did and possess an actual NBA "scorers" game, in that he can create his own shot and has the scoring variety at 3 levels. Also, he's somewhat forced into this role as the team is crap. Also that the offensive system is pure crap.
And whatever defensive metric spun him up higher doesn't impress me. I'd bet it somehow inflates taking charges. He's just not good defensively. I'm not sure he was better on the Hawks, and yes, this is better defense than last year or his first run on the Knicks, but he's still a subpar defender.

He'd be good for a playoff team that already has defenders but needs scoring punch off the bench. And are willing to pay starting level salary for it.

CLee is more tradable as he's "ok" of offense, actually decent on defense, stays in his lane on offense and will actually execute whatever system a coach might be using. And rarely takes awful shots. Not never, just rarely. For 6 million less a year.

[jvsimonetti0514]

So, in other words when the guys on the podcast say the org doesn't like both guys, you'll run with "For Frank, TRUTH!" but then for Knox "Oh, it's these podcast guys"

Interesting.

I don’t think you actually listened to the podcast because you’d know they never said those words.

Seems like your cherry picking from a dubious source when the take fits being down on a player you don't like, but not so down on a player you enjoy. They both suck right now.

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

[thebuzzardman]

I don’t think you actually listened to the podcast because you’d know they never said those words.

Seems like your cherry picking from a dubious source when the take fits being down on a player you don't like, but not so down on a player you enjoy. They both suck right now.

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Seems like your cherry picking from a dubious source when the take fits being down on a player you don't like, but not so down on a player you enjoy. They both suck right now.

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

100% agree. Fiz seems like he’s just a non preacher version of Mark Jackson. The players seem to like, trust, and play hard for him but they run a worse offense than me and my stoner friends in a pick game. Someone posted the offensive stats of his Griz teams and they all had low assist % too. That says to me that there’s no hidden wrinkles to this offense and this what were getting no matter how much talent we have. Unless we do what Toronto did and hire him a Nick Nurse type there’s no way he’s the coach if this team eventually makes the playoffs.

[awy]

yea the lack of assists is a big problem. it's also bad for development of players like frank.

[thebuzzardman]

yea the lack of assists is a big problem. it's also bad for development of players like frank.

It's not about Frank anymore. It's a bad development look, period.

And even giving players the confidence to "get theirs", while somewhat "developmental", I'll hold that if kept up too long, is counter developmental.

It's early, but it's not THAT early.

I'm taking my ques from myself and others around Jeff. I thought he'd get better, especially on defense; others here were calling him what he was 25 games into his tenure.

They were right. Why would Fiz be any different?

This IS his offense. Better players will make it look better, but it still isn't any good. Sort of like Jefe's D. His defense put players in the maximum place to underachieve. Sure, better players would have played better defense, but his schemes sucked, with players constantly too shaded to the paint and routinely giving up easy 3's, and then poor rotations. Fiz doesn't have any noticeable issues on defense that seem to be HIS cause, but does indeed have some poor defenders.
On offense, Fiz has some limited players, but to me it's pretty clear more than half of this mess is on him.

[whocares1]

Seems like your cherry picking from a dubious source when the take fits being down on a player you don't like, but not so down on a player you enjoy. They both suck right now.

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

[awy]

yea the lack of assists is a big problem. it's also bad for development of players like frank.

It's not about Frank anymore. It's a bad development look, period.

And even giving players the confidence to "get theirs", while somewhat "developmental", I'll hold that if kept up too long, is counter developmental.

It's early, but it's not THAT early.

I'm taking my ques from myself and others around Jeff. I thought he'd get better, especially on defense; others here were calling him what he was 25 games into his tenure.

They were right. Why would Fiz be any different?

This IS his offense. Better players will make it look better, but it still isn't any good. Sort of like Jefe's D. His defense put players in the maximum place to underachieve. Sure, better players would have played better defense, but his schemes sucked, with players constantly too shaded to the paint and routinely giving up easy 3's, and then poor rotations. Fiz doesn't have any noticeable issues on defense that seem to be HIS cause, but does indeed have some poor defenders.
On offense, Fiz has some limited players, but to me it's pretty clear more than half of this mess is on him.

the only caveat i'll add is that we don't know what's going on in practice, whehter they are trying to run some plays and guys are just not that good yet.

very early in the season u saw some plays but it's been regressing.

[KnicksGadfly]

Welp, they lost me at the bolded part

He's 16th in the NBA in PPG and 17th out of 438 players in offensive RPM (and he's 26 years old). I certainly think he qualifies as "pretty good."

PPG is a function of volume of shots on a pathetic team where he has a 100% green light to engage in the kinds of shot selection that gets most NBA players a trip to the bench.
Don't get me wrong - he drives more than he did and possess an actual NBA "scorers" game, in that he can create his own shot and has the scoring variety at 3 levels. Also, he's somewhat forced into this role as the team is crap. Also that the offensive system is pure crap.
And whatever defensive metric spun him up higher doesn't impress me. I'd bet it somehow inflates taking charges. He's just not good defensively. I'm not sure he was better on the Hawks, and yes, this is better defense than last year or his first run on the Knicks, but he's still a subpar defender.

He'd be good for a playoff team that already has defenders but needs scoring punch off the bench. And are willing to pay starting level salary for it.

CLee is more tradable as he's "ok" of offense, actually decent on defense, stays in his lane on offense and will actually execute whatever system a coach might be using. And rarely takes awful shots. Not never, just rarely. For 6 million less a year.

Don't wanna get into whether THJ is good or not, but I've been reading more and more articles that do talk about THJ as having value. Non-Knicks sources too. I think his value is being rehabilitated.

[thebuzzardman]

He's 16th in the NBA in PPG and 17th out of 438 players in offensive RPM (and he's 26 years old). I certainly think he qualifies as "pretty good."

PPG is a function of volume of shots on a pathetic team where he has a 100% green light to engage in the kinds of shot selection that gets most NBA players a trip to the bench.
Don't get me wrong - he drives more than he did and possess an actual NBA "scorers" game, in that he can create his own shot and has the scoring variety at 3 levels. Also, he's somewhat forced into this role as the team is crap. Also that the offensive system is pure crap.
And whatever defensive metric spun him up higher doesn't impress me. I'd bet it somehow inflates taking charges. He's just not good defensively. I'm not sure he was better on the Hawks, and yes, this is better defense than last year or his first run on the Knicks, but he's still a subpar defender.

He'd be good for a playoff team that already has defenders but needs scoring punch off the bench. And are willing to pay starting level salary for it.

CLee is more tradable as he's "ok" of offense, actually decent on defense, stays in his lane on offense and will actually execute whatever system a coach might be using. And rarely takes awful shots. Not never, just rarely. For 6 million less a year.

Don't wanna get into whether THJ is good or not, but I've been reading more and more articles that do talk about THJ as having value. Non-Knicks sources too. I think his value is being rehabilitated.

I'd say that value only extends so far. He's improved. Between himself or the coaching staff, he's better. I have my doubts he's a winning player. He's a scoring 6th man on a team that has a disciplined coach.

[thebuzzardman]

yea the lack of assists is a big problem. it's also bad for development of players like frank.

It's not about Frank anymore. It's a bad development look, period.

And even giving players the confidence to "get theirs", while somewhat "developmental", I'll hold that if kept up too long, is counter developmental.

It's early, but it's not THAT early.

I'm taking my ques from myself and others around Jeff. I thought he'd get better, especially on defense; others here were calling him what he was 25 games into his tenure.

They were right. Why would Fiz be any different?

This IS his offense. Better players will make it look better, but it still isn't any good. Sort of like Jefe's D. His defense put players in the maximum place to underachieve. Sure, better players would have played better defense, but his schemes sucked, with players constantly too shaded to the paint and routinely giving up easy 3's, and then poor rotations. Fiz doesn't have any noticeable issues on defense that seem to be HIS cause, but does indeed have some poor defenders.
On offense, Fiz has some limited players, but to me it's pretty clear more than half of this mess is on him.

the only caveat i'll add is that we don't know what's going on in practice, whehter they are trying to run some plays and guys are just not that good yet.

very early in the season u saw some plays but it's been regressing.

Again, realize a lot can be on the players, but if the concepts a coach is teaching them can't stick beyond the first week of the season where they are coming off constant practices, then something, somehow, is wrong with the coach and staff.

[justin12140]

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

[thebuzzardman]

If by cherry picking you mean actually listening to their words and realizing they never said something the OP claimed they said then sure. Ya Knox has been terrible, idk why you’d think I’d disagree about that?

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

I say "starting" as I wasn't down on Fiz until about 5 games ago. So yeah, it's not brand new, it was a thought that developed that I got more sure about.

Everyone on here has hot takes to include you.

In terms of lack of faith, I never thought the team was all that good, to include several significant players. That's expected in a rebuild/young team/team with cast-offs/reclamations. My newer feelings about Fiz are besides that. Even when going in on him I still point out that the players matter and it's early. I'm just coming around to the idea this is who Fiz is. Talks a lot. Coaches a good defense. Gets a certain amount of enthusiasm and buy in, not really a good offensive coach, double talks a bit to the press. Could be worse. Could be better.

[thebuzzardman]

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Thanks. This is my point. Knicks roster is bad, but it's not THAT bad.

All this in a league that distinctly encourages NOT playing defense and encourages scoring. And Knicks STILL can't tally assists. That's a function of system\coach.
Or lack thereof.

[awy]

It's not about Frank anymore. It's a bad development look, period.

And even giving players the confidence to "get theirs", while somewhat "developmental", I'll hold that if kept up too long, is counter developmental.

It's early, but it's not THAT early.

I'm taking my ques from myself and others around Jeff. I thought he'd get better, especially on defense; others here were calling him what he was 25 games into his tenure.

They were right. Why would Fiz be any different?

This IS his offense. Better players will make it look better, but it still isn't any good. Sort of like Jefe's D. His defense put players in the maximum place to underachieve. Sure, better players would have played better defense, but his schemes sucked, with players constantly too shaded to the paint and routinely giving up easy 3's, and then poor rotations. Fiz doesn't have any noticeable issues on defense that seem to be HIS cause, but does indeed have some poor defenders.
On offense, Fiz has some limited players, but to me it's pretty clear more than half of this mess is on him.

the only caveat i'll add is that we don't know what's going on in practice, whehter they are trying to run some plays and guys are just not that good yet.

very early in the season u saw some plays but it's been regressing.

Again, realize a lot can be on the players, but if the concepts a coach is teaching them can't stick beyond the first week of the season where they are coming off constant practices, then something, somehow, is wrong with the coach and staff.

fiz has said they've simplified the offense to make execution easier. that seems like a questionable move in hindsight at least for some players.