Knicks featured on latest "The Ringer" Podcast

[HEZI]

I kind of lost the tread of the argument between the days?

I'm more frustrated in general with Fiz. Who's been ok, but I'm starting to lose faith, mainly in lack of clear direction or system. And the players aren't all that, by far, but I think he could be getting more out of Frank, Knox, Mitch and even Zo, if he changed up some approaches. Easy to bystander coach for sure, just stating (in a strident message board sort of way) that I'm starting to be less impressed. And in no way are wins (god forbid) or losses a part of that thought process. In fact, not even minutes.

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

[thebuzzardman]

the only caveat i'll add is that we don't know what's going on in practice, whehter they are trying to run some plays and guys are just not that good yet.

very early in the season u saw some plays but it's been regressing.

Again, realize a lot can be on the players, but if the concepts a coach is teaching them can't stick beyond the first week of the season where they are coming off constant practices, then something, somehow, is wrong with the coach and staff.

fiz has said they've simplified the offense to make execution easier. that seems like a questionable move in hindsight at least for some players.

God, this'll sound like it's all about Frank, but even Jefe had Frank do a bit more in the offense, in terms of passing, etc, when Frank was a raw rookie and for the most part (those lazy passes aside) it worked out ok. Nothing awesome but showed some feel for the game in terms of passing. Obviously feel for taking his own shot was horrible. This year? Nothing that utilizes those abilities at all.

Knox? Well, he seemed to move around pretty good at Kentucky (yes, not NBA players, but yet the NBA has more space) to the extent some posters on here saw "Klay Thompson" abilities (chuckle). Well, Knox does two things now. Parks his ass on the 3 point line, where he takes the shot, or forces something into the lane with limited success. Obviously, Knox and his age etc matters here. Not running the kid around screens, some curls etc? That's on Fiz. I could go on.

[justin12140]

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system

That’s not the point. How can we average 20 more points than the 2012 bobcats and less assists? We absolutely have the talent to average over 20 APG, yet we aren’t. That’s on coaching. Worse teams can do it, last year we did it, so we should be doing it now

[thebuzzardman]

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

Who cares about pace to win games or not? Who even really cares about talent level on a team where half of it (optimistically) isn't returning? What I do care about is what is the coach trying to run? Not much.

Regarding chemistry. This is the highest level of basketball played by players who are among the most talented, in the world. Yet after a full training camp and 25 games, not only is there no chemistry, but what I see is regression. Just like players are paid to be able score and do "stuff" on offense, having a high level ability to play together and understand a system is part of what they are paid to do. Are you saying that many of these players lack this skill? Or that they need more time? I'd buy that just like some players just aren't good at scoring, some just suck at team basketball and "chemistry".

Why do other teams with other young players have better chemistry though?

You kind of changed the subject from system and development to "those wins" too.




Hold on. Are you preaching patience for Fiz?

[awy]

You haven’t “started to lose faith” after some of the things you’ve said in game threads and post game threads. It’s okay to say you have no faith in Fiz after 23 games because part of being a Knicks fan for some of you is overreacting.

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

but winning games is the absolute worst metric here. you don't want to win games, but besides that, it's about development.

even if the players are falling over themselves trying to run plays it's probably better than asking some guys who'll not be long term starters do iso chucking all game.

[thebuzzardman]

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

but winning games is the absolute worst metric here. you don't want to win games, but besides that, it's about development.

even if the players are falling over themselves trying to run plays it's probably better than asking some guys who'll not be long term starters do iso chucking all game.

Those wins though.

[HEZI]

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system

That’s not the point. How can we average 20 more points than the 2012 bobcats and less assists? We absolutely have the talent to average over 20 APG, yet we aren’t. That’s on coaching. Worse teams can do it, last year we did it, so we should be doing it now

That stuff is irrelevant. You want them to average more assist but what good is that if the end result is still the same or worse?

Are the Knicks gonna be a better team if they just averaged more assists? The answer is no they won't.

Knicks are averaging 18.6 assists per game (30th) and have a 7-16 record
Portland is averaging 20.5 assists per game (28th) and have a 13-9 record
Brooklyn is averaging 22.7 assists per game (21st) and have a 8-15 record
Sacramento is averaging 24.8 assists per game (8th) and have a 10-11 record
Atlanta is averaging 24.4 assists per game (10th) and have a 5-18 record
Detroit is averaging 21.6 assists per game (26th) and have a 12-7 record
Miami is averaging 22.0 assists per game (25th) and have a 8-13 record
Houston is averaging 21.3 assists per game (27th) and have a 10-11 record
New Orleans is averaging 26.5 assists per game (5th) and have a 11-12 record
Toronto has the best record in the league and they are 7th in assists

There really is no pattern here. Knicks are the youngest team in the league with a new coach, a franchise player who hasn't played all season and a bunch of players who's future with the team is still uncertain. There is no looking at assists and asking for a system right now. Once the pieces that are supposed to be in place are actually in place then that's when you start looking at how the coach and system can get them to work. But right now this team is under construction and no system is going to fix it or make it look good or better.

[HEZI]

The team has a lower APG average than the 2012 bobcats. The same bobcats that averaged 87 points per game. We also have lower APG than the 10 win Sixers team (2016) and the 17 win Knicks Tank (2015). Take a look at the rosters of those teams. How do you look at that and blame anyone except the coach?

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

Who cares about pace to win games or not? Who even really cares about talent level on a team where half of it (optimistically) isn't returning? What I do care about is what is the coach trying to run? Not much.

Regarding chemistry. This is the highest level of basketball played by players who are among the most talented, in the world. Yet after a full training camp and 25 games, not only is there no chemistry, but what I see is regression. Just like players are paid to be able score and do "stuff" on offense, having a high level ability to play together and understand a system is part of what they are paid to do. Are you saying that many of these players lack this skill? Or that they need more time? I'd buy that just like some players just aren't good at scoring, some just suck at team basketball and "chemistry".

Why do other teams with other young players have better chemistry though?

You kind of changed the subject from system and development to "those wins" too.




Hold on. Are you preaching patience for Fiz?

Youngest team in the league, no franchise player, a bunch of expiring contracts who don't know if they will be with the team next season or not, a new coach and you are looking for a system that should have been running at full speed right now and making us look like the showtime Lakers? Yeah makes sense. I'm not preaching just patience with Fiz, I'm saying this whole process is still undergoing.

[justin12140]

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system

That’s not the point. How can we average 20 more points than the 2012 bobcats and less assists? We absolutely have the talent to average over 20 APG, yet we aren’t. That’s on coaching. Worse teams can do it, last year we did it, so we should be doing it now

That stuff is irrelevant. You want them to average more assist but what good is that if the end result is still the same or worse?

Are the Knicks gonna be a better team if they just averaged more assists? The answer is no they won't.

Knicks are averaging 18.6 assists per game (30th) and have a 7-16 record
Portland is averaging 20.5 assists per game (28th) and have a 13-9 record
Brooklyn is averaging 22.7 assists per game (21st) and have a 8-15 record
Sacramento is averaging 24.8 assists per game (8th) and have a 10-11 record
Atlanta is averaging 24.4 assists per game (10th) and have a 5-18 record
Detroit is averaging 21.6 assists per game (26th) and have a 12-7 record
Miami is averaging 22.0 assists per game (25th) and have a 8-13 record
Houston is averaging 21.3 assists per game (27th) and have a 10-11 record
New Orleans is averaging 26.5 assists per game (5th) and have a 11-12 record
Toronto has the best record in the league and they are 7th in assists

There really is no pattern here. Knicks are the youngest team in the league with a new coach, a franchise player who hasn't played all season and a bunch of players who's future with the team is still uncertain. There is no looking at assists and asking for a system right now. Once the pieces that are supposed to be in place are actually in place then that's when you start looking at how the coach and system can get them to work. But right now this team is under construction and no system is going to fix it or make it look good or better.

Assists are the symptom of our style of play. The number of possessions where only 1 or two players touch the ball is to damn high. Everyone on the team is constantly trying to take their guy 1 on 1.

I don’t care how many wins the team gets. The style of play, and how our players fit within it, is much more important to me. We have an offense that doesn’t promote ball movement. The stats back that up as well as the eye test. How can you evaluate players that aren’t good at ISO if that’s all the team runs?

[HEZI]

That’s not the point. How can we average 20 more points than the 2012 bobcats and less assists? We absolutely have the talent to average over 20 APG, yet we aren’t. That’s on coaching. Worse teams can do it, last year we did it, so we should be doing it now

That stuff is irrelevant. You want them to average more assist but what good is that if the end result is still the same or worse?

Are the Knicks gonna be a better team if they just averaged more assists? The answer is no they won't.

Knicks are averaging 18.6 assists per game (30th) and have a 7-16 record
Portland is averaging 20.5 assists per game (28th) and have a 13-9 record
Brooklyn is averaging 22.7 assists per game (21st) and have a 8-15 record
Sacramento is averaging 24.8 assists per game (8th) and have a 10-11 record
Atlanta is averaging 24.4 assists per game (10th) and have a 5-18 record
Detroit is averaging 21.6 assists per game (26th) and have a 12-7 record
Miami is averaging 22.0 assists per game (25th) and have a 8-13 record
Houston is averaging 21.3 assists per game (27th) and have a 10-11 record
New Orleans is averaging 26.5 assists per game (5th) and have a 11-12 record
Toronto has the best record in the league and they are 7th in assists

There really is no pattern here. Knicks are the youngest team in the league with a new coach, a franchise player who hasn't played all season and a bunch of players who's future with the team is still uncertain. There is no looking at assists and asking for a system right now. Once the pieces that are supposed to be in place are actually in place then that's when you start looking at how the coach and system can get them to work. But right now this team is under construction and no system is going to fix it or make it look good or better.

Assists are the symptom of our style of play. The number of possessions where only 1 or two players touch the ball is to damn high. Everyone on the team is constantly trying to take their guy 1 on 1.

I don’t care how many wins the team gets. The style of play, and how our players fit within it, is much more important to me. We have an offense that doesn’t promote ball movement. The stats back that up as well as the eye test. How can you evaluate players that aren’t good at ISO if that’s all the team runs?

Who cares about style of play if it doesn't provide results? What is the point? If you still suck then you still suck, no matter how good you might think your system is. People were drooling at the Nets for their system but the truth is they still suck just as much as the Knicks. So really, what is the point if the system isn't getting you anywhere?

[justin12140]

That stuff is irrelevant. You want them to average more assist but what good is that if the end result is still the same or worse?

Are the Knicks gonna be a better team if they just averaged more assists? The answer is no they won't.

Knicks are averaging 18.6 assists per game (30th) and have a 7-16 record
Portland is averaging 20.5 assists per game (28th) and have a 13-9 record
Brooklyn is averaging 22.7 assists per game (21st) and have a 8-15 record
Sacramento is averaging 24.8 assists per game (8th) and have a 10-11 record
Atlanta is averaging 24.4 assists per game (10th) and have a 5-18 record
Detroit is averaging 21.6 assists per game (26th) and have a 12-7 record
Miami is averaging 22.0 assists per game (25th) and have a 8-13 record
Houston is averaging 21.3 assists per game (27th) and have a 10-11 record
New Orleans is averaging 26.5 assists per game (5th) and have a 11-12 record
Toronto has the best record in the league and they are 7th in assists

There really is no pattern here. Knicks are the youngest team in the league with a new coach, a franchise player who hasn't played all season and a bunch of players who's future with the team is still uncertain. There is no looking at assists and asking for a system right now. Once the pieces that are supposed to be in place are actually in place then that's when you start looking at how the coach and system can get them to work. But right now this team is under construction and no system is going to fix it or make it look good or better.

Assists are the symptom of our style of play. The number of possessions where only 1 or two players touch the ball is to damn high. Everyone on the team is constantly trying to take their guy 1 on 1.

I don’t care how many wins the team gets. The style of play, and how our players fit within it, is much more important to me. We have an offense that doesn’t promote ball movement. The stats back that up as well as the eye test. How can you evaluate players that aren’t good at ISO if that’s all the team runs?

Who cares about style of play if it doesn't provide results? What is the point? If you still suck then you still suck, no matter how good you might think your system is. People were drooling at the Nets for their system but the truth is they still suck just as much as the Knicks. So really, what is the point if the system isn't getting you anywhere?

Lol. Are you really asking me why we should move the ball more on offense? Do you think it’s ok that most of our possessions only have 1 pass, if that?

[HEZI]

Assists are the symptom of our style of play. The number of possessions where only 1 or two players touch the ball is to damn high. Everyone on the team is constantly trying to take their guy 1 on 1.

I don’t care how many wins the team gets. The style of play, and how our players fit within it, is much more important to me. We have an offense that doesn’t promote ball movement. The stats back that up as well as the eye test. How can you evaluate players that aren’t good at ISO if that’s all the team runs?

Who cares about style of play if it doesn't provide results? What is the point? If you still suck then you still suck, no matter how good you might think your system is. People were drooling at the Nets for their system but the truth is they still suck just as much as the Knicks. So really, what is the point if the system isn't getting you anywhere?

Lol. Are you really asking me why we should move the ball more on offense? Do you think it’s ok that most of our possessions only have 1 pass, if that?

No I'm asking you what results will that bring with this current group? Are you saying they are underachieving? They would be better if they just moved the ball more? Obviously these guys are playing off their strengths and some of them are very capable Iso scorers so they do what they do. Some guys are trash on offense so they don't even look to score. What the coaching staff is doing is evaluating to see who does what naturally and who's strengths and weaknesses are what. You don't need a system to know what your players can and can't do.

[thebuzzardman]

Yet still not on pace to finish the season worse than those teams did. There are teams who average more assists than us (obviously) yet still can't win more games. You make it sound like the Knicks are on pace for a historically bad season and that's not what's happening at all. The main issue is lack of talent on the floor, not the coaching or system. Another issue is chemistry. We got a bunch of new pieces and key rotation players and there just isn't a great chemistry out there with these guys. But mainly the team just isn't constructed properly at the moment.

Who cares about pace to win games or not? Who even really cares about talent level on a team where half of it (optimistically) isn't returning? What I do care about is what is the coach trying to run? Not much.

Regarding chemistry. This is the highest level of basketball played by players who are among the most talented, in the world. Yet after a full training camp and 25 games, not only is there no chemistry, but what I see is regression. Just like players are paid to be able score and do "stuff" on offense, having a high level ability to play together and understand a system is part of what they are paid to do. Are you saying that many of these players lack this skill? Or that they need more time? I'd buy that just like some players just aren't good at scoring, some just suck at team basketball and "chemistry".

Why do other teams with other young players have better chemistry though?

You kind of changed the subject from system and development to "those wins" too.




Hold on. Are you preaching patience for Fiz?

Youngest team in the league, no franchise player, a bunch of expiring contracts who don't know if they will be with the team next season or not, a new coach and you are looking for a system that should have been running at full speed right now and making us look like the showtime Lakers? Yeah makes sense. I'm not preaching just patience with Fiz, I'm saying this whole process is still undergoing.

I wasn't aware young players got a break from you.

They either got it, or they don't.

Clearly they don't, and neither do the coach. This ain't the minor leagues, right?

[thebuzzardman]

Also, I didn't realize the passing the ball or making a cut were awesome NBA talents. Apparently I'm wrong though.

[thebuzzardman]

Why did the Knicks go through a 1 month coaching search if the primary function of an NBA coach is to roll the ball out on the floor and tell the players "do what you do best"?

[awy]

fizdale is a 'player's coach' and i suppose he had to deal with a bit of a veteran insurrection sometime before he put all the older players back in more prominent roles.

[HEZI]

Who cares about pace to win games or not? Who even really cares about talent level on a team where half of it (optimistically) isn't returning? What I do care about is what is the coach trying to run? Not much.

Regarding chemistry. This is the highest level of basketball played by players who are among the most talented, in the world. Yet after a full training camp and 25 games, not only is there no chemistry, but what I see is regression. Just like players are paid to be able score and do "stuff" on offense, having a high level ability to play together and understand a system is part of what they are paid to do. Are you saying that many of these players lack this skill? Or that they need more time? I'd buy that just like some players just aren't good at scoring, some just suck at team basketball and "chemistry".

Why do other teams with other young players have better chemistry though?

You kind of changed the subject from system and development to "those wins" too.




Hold on. Are you preaching patience for Fiz?

Youngest team in the league, no franchise player, a bunch of expiring contracts who don't know if they will be with the team next season or not, a new coach and you are looking for a system that should have been running at full speed right now and making us look like the showtime Lakers? Yeah makes sense. I'm not preaching just patience with Fiz, I'm saying this whole process is still undergoing.

I wasn't aware young players got a break from you.

They either got it, or they don't.

Clearly they don't, and neither do the coach. This ain't the minor leagues, right?

The coach may very well suck and I never said he's good or anything like that. Honestly I wouldn't even care if they fired him today or tomorrow, it won't make a difference. We have issues with the roster and no system or coach is going to change it right now. My focus isn't on the coach right now, I'll shift to that when we get players who should be winning. This current group isn't good and are gonna lose no matter what, so really complaining about why they lost this way and not that way is pointless. But if it makes you feel better to vent about it then hey by all means do it, but I'm gonna challenge your logic and reasoning behind it. If that hurts your feelings, well I'm sorry?

[YouthMovement]

i mean in no way do you give up on the kid, and i loved what i saw this summer, but i definitely think it's ok to be disappointed in knox

i mean..he's been disappointing. period

[justin12140]

Who cares about style of play if it doesn't provide results? What is the point? If you still suck then you still suck, no matter how good you might think your system is. People were drooling at the Nets for their system but the truth is they still suck just as much as the Knicks. So really, what is the point if the system isn't getting you anywhere?

Lol. Are you really asking me why we should move the ball more on offense? Do you think it’s ok that most of our possessions only have 1 pass, if that?

No I'm asking you what results will that bring with this current group? Are you saying they are underachieving? They would be better if they just moved the ball more? Obviously these guys are playing off their strengths and some of them are very capable Iso scorers so they do what they do. Some guys are trash on offense so they don't even look to score. What the coaching staff is doing is evaluating to see who does what naturally and who's strengths and weaknesses are what. You don't need a system to know what your players can and can't do.

I want our guys to become a cohesive group and play together. Just like defense requires all players to play to be on a string, I’d like to see the same thing on the offensive side of the floor. Just because we have guys that are are good at ISOs, that doesn’t mean we need to play that way every time down the floor. Run some plays to get other guys involved in the actions! Everyone plays harder when their involved

[HEZI]

Lol. Are you really asking me why we should move the ball more on offense? Do you think it’s ok that most of our possessions only have 1 pass, if that?

No I'm asking you what results will that bring with this current group? Are you saying they are underachieving? They would be better if they just moved the ball more? Obviously these guys are playing off their strengths and some of them are very capable Iso scorers so they do what they do. Some guys are trash on offense so they don't even look to score. What the coaching staff is doing is evaluating to see who does what naturally and who's strengths and weaknesses are what. You don't need a system to know what your players can and can't do.

I want our guys to become a cohesive group and play together. Just like defense requires all players to play to be on a string, I’d like to see the same thing on the offensive side of the floor. Just because we have guys that are are good at ISOs, that doesn’t mean we need to play that way every time down the floor. Run some plays to get other guys involved in the actions! Everyone plays harder when their involved

That aint happening this season I can tell you that much. That should have never been the expectation going into this current season