2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[TheNewEra]

Also have to take into account white European fans in America want him to succeed to be that guy. The next great white hope is a thing.

His intelligence will be played up greatly to be vastly superior than the average player and his games will be deemed more important

Get out of here with this garbage, sorry excuse for an opinion. White European players are ridiculed by American NBA fans, and have to play at an extremely high level for years like Dirk did, or actually show tremendous, undeniable potential like KP did, in order to get praise. For a white European player nothing is given in the NBA, they have to fight for everything they get, unlike highly-touted American prospects, who always get the benefit of the doubt. It is completely ridiculous that you have this farce of an opinion when in reality not only this is not true, it's actually the total opposite of the reality that is taking place in the microcosm of the NBA.

White players in general are usually touted for their intellect as soon as they become a notable prospect. Whether Euro born or white American to act like fans don’t have a extra appreciation for players that look like them is ridiculous. I didn’t say it was a issue to be excited for a player in a sport you are the minority.

I do take issue with the narrative that just because a large part of white players are not as athletic work harder. You will argue you meant euro foreign but the same arguments are made for American white players. My comment was also to the over top description of bbiq when it came to white players and how fans will be excited for Luka as they should but some of it is overboard.

[Mr B]

1. Jaren Jackson Jr.
2. Luka Doncic
3. Deandre Ayton
4. Wendell Carter Jr.

1. Deandre Ayton
2. Deandre Ayton
3. Deandre Ayton
4. Deandre Ayton
5. Deandre Ayton

He's been on another level from all other rookies. They're all good for rookies. He's just good.

apparently he’s too good to help Suns winning some games.

This is why I think Luka will win it over Ayton. Luka is averaging 20/6/5 and is clearly the best player on team that will be competing for a playoff spot.

[Mr B]

Ayton has a -5.8 on court rating. When he's off the court Phoenix has a -18.5 rating. If that's not impact I don't know what is. Meanwhile JJJ has by far the lowest +/- in the Memphis starting lineup and they do better with JaMychael Green out with the other 4 and the Mavs starting 5 is the 2nd worst in the league next to Washington.

Ayton has nothing to do with the fact that he plays with only 2 other good players (Booker and Bridges). Same way Doncic has nothing to do with Dallas having the best bench in the league and JJJ has nothing to do with Gasol/Conley destroying other teams (those two are the 9th best 2 man lineup in the league).

RPM, http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/5

JJJ 105th
Luka 123th
Ayton 165th
Knowing that RPM favorites bigs.

Last year Memphis, 7-12, Dallas 4-15, Suns 7-12
This year Memphis 12-7, Dallas 9-9, Suns 4-15

i won’t say that Memphis and Dallas are better only because of JJJ and Luka, but it’s for sure strange that like you say far the best rookie havs 0 impact on the Suns.

He doesn't have 0 impact on the Suns. He's stuck playing with 2 good players and a bunch of scrubs though. RPM isn't god and the BPM like prior is really bumping up the defensive impact of JJJ with his blocks and steals while covering up his lack of offensive impact because he's efficient.

As far as Luka goes watch a Dallas game. When he's on the floor they aren't good. That bench is insane.

Still great rookies but Ayton is one of the better offensive players in the league already.

WHAT? Dallas isn’t good when Luka is on the floor? Are you nuts? You should follow your own advice and watch a Mavs game sometime because you CLEARLY have not watch ANY Mavs games if that’s what you think. Either that, you don’t know crap about basketball, or you’re just so much on Ayton’s nuts that you’re trying to discredit Luka. Everyone that actually knows basketball and has seen Mavs games will tell you that Luka is already the best player on the team and the offense runs much smoother when the ball is in his hands.

[Mr B]

Jackson Jr. and Doncic have much better teams around them than Ayton. Irrelevant point.

Pretty sure Mavs are sub 30 team without Doncic.

I understand Doncic might not be your fav player and up to this week you have had him outside of top 3 rookies (if not even 5 in one of your lists), but that still doesn't mean that posts like E-Balla's shouldn't be mocked. His posts are borderline bannable in my opinion. And yet a lot of you guys never respond to the insanity like:

As far as Luka goes watch a Dallas game. When he's on the floor they aren't good. That bench is insane.

The funny part is that we all know how he got to have such an opinion and it sure isn't from watching the games. Oh, no, it comes from +/- stat and him not understanding that bench players play against weaker opposition. A typical box score warrior, never watches games, doesn't understand any of the stats' meaning.

Shocking that only Bob8 is responding to this and calling him out. And then he is being labeled as "Luka fanboy"...

Now ok... now that I think of it... could be that E-Balla is simply on everyone's ignore list. That would make sense. Yeah, that's probably the only reasonable explanation.

Totally because it's not easy to watch Mavs games and see whenever Barea hits the floor the offense just looks different. Everyone knows Doncic is a top 10 player in the league.

You're 100% right it's hard to watch a game and notice the Mavs starting 5 gets killed. But let me guess you watch him play and to you the starting 5 is great right?

You need to step away from the weed man. The Mavs bench has been great however the problem with the starters hasn’t been Luka. He’s been great. The problem is they’ve had a bunch of new guys playing a hand full of games together for the first time. Over the last 10 games the starters have been figuring out their roles and have been playing much better. Again, if you’d watch a Mavs game every now and then you would already know that.

[Mr B]

As far as Luka goes watch a Dallas game. When he's on the floor they aren't good. That bench is insane.

Still great rookies but Ayton is one of the better offensive players in the league already.

This statement alone tells me you havent watched many Dallas games this year.

And FYI bball isnt played only 3 ft from the rim like Ayton plays it.

Its hard to take you seriously

Obviously you don't watch Ayton play because he shoots. And he shoots well. He's not primarily a shooter though because he's smart enough to realize and the biggest, most athletic, strongest player on the floor he's better off playing in the paint.

If he’s so great why is he having zero impact on the team?

[Young gun 6]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

[Mr B]

Totally because it's not easy to watch Mavs games and see whenever Barea hits the floor the offense just looks different. Everyone knows Doncic is a top 10 player in the league.

You're 100% right it's hard to watch a game and notice the Mavs starting 5 gets killed. But let me guess you watch him play and to you the starting 5 is great right?

Oh my god i never thought i will have to come to defend Bob8 on these forums. But i guess that day had to come by....

Anyway, Luka i believe is 1st among all rookies in 4Q points. He also ranks in TOP5 in clutch FG% in the entire league, again if my memory servers me right. Dallas had so many close games already when Doncic was in fact the one who brought them back in 4Q but they were unlucky a couple of times. The fact that you are diminishing is role by calling out other people to watch Mavs games, i simply have the feeling you watch zero games yourself.

There's a whole other 43 minutes in the game though. Doncic can score extremely well and is a great rookie but he's not the reason they're winning so much. That bench is. They wouldn't be in it for Luka to close out the games if the bench didn't keep them in it.

Mavs offense looks a lot smoother when he is on the floor and often he is their savior when the shoot clock is going down and they have nowhere to go. JJ had many off and on moments, lately he is hitting his shots, but when JJ runs the offense, he passes only when he has to, otherwise he looks for his own shots. So luckily, he is in a good form at the moment, but when those shots stop falling, Mavs bench will be in trouble. I am not convinced that he can sustain 20ppg as a bench player through entire year.

Umm.... JJ has scored 20 (just barely) twice and under 10 8 times. Meanwhile he's had 10+ assists 3 times and under 5 assists 6 times. I think you might have him confused with DSJ who is a starter.

So aside that Luka is one of the best clutch players in the NBA so far and that he had more impact on Mavs winning this season than any other rookie had on their team, what makes you think he is as bad as you say he is?

No one said he's bad. I said he's a good rookie. Not a good player. That doesn't mean he's bad it means he's decent. This happens every year. People conflate rookies doing legitimately impressive things for a 19 year old with playing winning basketball. Last year it was Mitchell people were gushing about. As it is now Luka is a good scorer, bad defender, and he turns the ball over tons. No stat you can point to would paint him as an above average starter because he isn't. He's an average player, which at 19 is rare (I mean look at Young - he's impressive and literally one of the worst players in the league).

Ayton is beyond that level already. He's basically Amare already.

Clearly haven’t seen any Mavs games if you think Luka is a bad defender. He’s not Scottie Pippen but he’s far from bad. Also he has turnovers because he’s usually the primary ball handler when he’s on the court (not DSJ).

[Bob8]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

and Suns are the worst team in the league with Ayton playing all the games.

look, I know that Luka is not solely responsible for Mavs looking good and I know Suns have big problems in their roster. but the fact is that playmaking wing, who can play multiple positions, is helping more his team winning games, than a C, who’s not doing much in D. and if we look only at rookies bigs, it’s clear that JJJ looks much better than Ayton, being 1 year younger. Bagley and Carter being very near to Ayton. I watched Ayton last night, he looks like he just doesn’t care enough. Many times just watching the game, like he’s not really involved. Luka will have bad games too, but you will never see lethargic Luka.

[mixerball]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

Omg, bust confirmed

[Young gun 6]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

Omg, bust confirmed

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

[Archx]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

Omg, bust confirmed

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

C'mon dude, don't start this debate here. It can get heated very fast. Yeah they have a very solid bench but they do need him more than you think. Barea shooting 18 shots per game? You can't win on the long run like that. Also no Luka means no 2ndary or even primary scorer on the team. They also need his playmaking and those "crazy shots" when everything else goes down the drainer. They got a bit lucky last night but it was a good thing some others stepped up.

[Bob8]

Dallas just beat the top team in the West without Luka

Omg, bust confirmed

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

We will never know, but it’s still interesting that Mavs are +6 wins in comparison to last years start of the season, which is a huge difference. And Suns are -4 wins, which is huge difference too, something very unexpected for a team, who supposedly got great No.1 pick. We can argue how important Luka is for the better record of the Mavs. Imho it’s obvious that the energy in and around Mavs is totally different than last year. So, if we can debate about, how big influence Luka has on Mavericks being better team, it’s obvious that No.1 pick didn’t help Suns be better team.

[Young gun 6]

Omg, bust confirmed

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

We will never know, but it’s still interesting that Mavs are +6 wins in comparison to last years start of the season, which is a huge difference. And Suns are -4 wins, which is huge difference too, something very unexpected for a team, who supposedly got great No.1 pick. We can argue how important Luka is for the better record of the Mavs. Imho it’s obvious that the energy in and around Mavs is totally different than last year. So, if we can debate about, how big influence Luka has on Mavericks being better team, it’s obvious that No.1 pick didn’t help Suns be better team.

Have a look at the fixture and that will
Give you you’re answer. Phoenix have had the hardest schedule of any team in the league and was already poor so they had no hope. Also having a new coach and a new gm take over takes time for things to work along with a heap of roster changes.

Need to look at the bigger picture.

Phoenix have the worst bench in the league.
They’ve had the hardest schedule of any team.
They’ve had their best players injured multiple times (Booker, Warren)
Had players miss for family issues (Ariza).
Players get traded/bought out from last season (Chriss, Len, Chandler, Canaan)
Had changed constantly to rotations (Jackson, Ariza/Bridges)
Have a new coach (Igor)
A new GM (Jones)
Their only pg’s are rookies (Melton, Okobo)
Have no players who can run the pick n roll (Strength for a big man)

You out Doncic, Jackson, Young...any rookie into the above situation and let me know how they go.

Yeah Ayton has had some effort issues but he doesn’t even have a bloody PG to play with, he’s doing very very well for a rookie.

[Bob8]

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

We will never know, but it’s still interesting that Mavs are +6 wins in comparison to last years start of the season, which is a huge difference. And Suns are -4 wins, which is huge difference too, something very unexpected for a team, who supposedly got great No.1 pick. We can argue how important Luka is for the better record of the Mavs. Imho it’s obvious that the energy in and around Mavs is totally different than last year. So, if we can debate about, how big influence Luka has on Mavericks being better team, it’s obvious that No.1 pick didn’t help Suns be better team.

Have a look at the fixture and that will
Give you you’re answer. Phoenix have had the hardest schedule of any team in the league and was already poor so they had no hope. Also having a new coach and a new gm take over takes time for things to work along with a heap of roster changes.

Need to look at the bigger picture.

Phoenix have the worst bench in the league.
They’ve had the hardest schedule of any team.
They’ve had their best players injured multiple times (Booker, Warren)
Had players miss for family issues (Ariza).
Players get traded/bought out from last season (Chriss, Len, Chandler, Canaan)
Had changed constantly to rotations (Jackson, Ariza/Bridges)
Have a new coach (Igor)
A new GM (Jones)
Their only pg’s are rookies (Melton, Okobo)
Have no players who can run the pick n roll (Strength for a big man)

You out Doncic, Jackson, Young...any rookie into the above situation and let me know how they go.

Yeah Ayton has had some effort issues but he doesn’t even have a bloody PG to play with, he’s doing very very well for a rookie.

1. About schedule, Mavs had very easy schedule at the beginning and started 3-7, loosing Atlanta and Phoenix, and after that, against better teams, they’re 8-3. So clearly the schedule is not the main reason for Mavs playing better. it looks to me, that Mavs don’t even care with who they play as long they play at home.

2. You’re forgetting one important fact, that Luka already played and won Eurobasket under Kokoskov, beating 30:1 odds. Kokoskov knows how to use Luka for the benefit of his team. If Suns decided to bring Kokoskov, they should have gone all in and drafted Luka too. They would have had playmaking wing, who would have fitted with Booker great and Holmes, being lesser talent than Ayton of course, could have covered many things that Ayton is doing at the moment. Imho Suns would have looked better with Luka for sure. I understand though that going with Ayton was safest decision for Suns.

[Memgrizz0]

This thread is getting rough lol. Lot of fans upset they chose a low-motor center with no defense

[Pumpkin17]

Nah just people overrating his importance to winning. They have a good team that is meshing well and healthy, even without him and one of the best coaches in the league.

Switch Doncic and Ayton and suns wouldn’t have any more wins.

We will never know, but it’s still interesting that Mavs are +6 wins in comparison to last years start of the season, which is a huge difference. And Suns are -4 wins, which is huge difference too, something very unexpected for a team, who supposedly got great No.1 pick. We can argue how important Luka is for the better record of the Mavs. Imho it’s obvious that the energy in and around Mavs is totally different than last year. So, if we can debate about, how big influence Luka has on Mavericks being better team, it’s obvious that No.1 pick didn’t help Suns be better team.

Have a look at the fixture and that will
Give you you’re answer. Phoenix have had the hardest schedule of any team in the league and was already poor so they had no hope. Also having a new coach and a new gm take over takes time for things to work along with a heap of roster changes.

Need to look at the bigger picture.

Phoenix have the worst bench in the league.
They’ve had the hardest schedule of any team.
They’ve had their best players injured multiple times (Booker, Warren)
Had players miss for family issues (Ariza).
Players get traded/bought out from last season (Chriss, Len, Chandler, Canaan)
Had changed constantly to rotations (Jackson, Ariza/Bridges)
Have a new coach (Igor)
A new GM (Jones)
Their only pg’s are rookies (Melton, Okobo)
Have no players who can run the pick n roll (Strength for a big man)

You out Doncic, Jackson, Young...any rookie into the above situation and let me know how they go.

Yeah Ayton has had some effort issues but he doesn’t even have a bloody PG to play with, he’s doing very very well for a rookie.

I don't get why people need to go thus far in order to justify a player being worse than another in 20 games. Doncic and JJJ are the clear best rookies right now, playing better than peers and helping their team winning games. This doesn't mean they'll be the best players in 3-5 years, but the debate with Ayton at this point is beyond ridiculous. PHX has done a terrible job for sure in building the team but they are interested in tanking after all, and that takes its toll. It's only a pity that they have not managed to provide Ayton with a proper PG, that could actually stint his development. However, there's no need for a proper PG in order to show effort on defense. Still, Ayton will be a beast and ROY means nothing in the long term (in the short term as well actually...)

[E-Balla]

This statement alone tells me you havent watched many Dallas games this year.

And FYI bball isnt played only 3 ft from the rim like Ayton plays it.

Its hard to take you seriously

Obviously you don't watch Ayton play because he shoots. And he shoots well. He's not primarily a shooter though because he's smart enough to realize and the biggest, most athletic, strongest player on the floor he's better off playing in the paint.

If he’s so great why is he having zero impact on the team?

First off why you on my nuts? Secondly like I said great for a rookie usually means average for a player. Lastly I don't even like Ayton like that I thought Bagley should've been the first pick and I correctly predicted Arizona losing in the NCAA tournament in my bracket because I was 100% sure any team just had to attack Ayton for endless buckets even in college. I just don't play favorites like you're obviously doing for Luka. Y'all just won without him. The Suns can't win with all their players on the floor. Acting like Ayton's team isn't winning because he isn't as good as Doncic (who is dragging the Mavs to wins according to y'all) is hilarious when Dallas has the best bench in the league.

Also no **** his turnovers are high because he's the primary ball handler. And? Does that change the fact that Luka is on pace to end up top 10 all time in TOPG for rookies (and along with Jim Jackson and Ron Harper end up one of 3 rookies in the top 10 of TOPG with under 6 APG)? Again if a vet turned over the ball so much it'd be an issue. Since he's a rookie we overlook it and look at the positives which are very good. Great rookie, not a great player yet. I can easily overlook his issues knowing he'll improve on them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore his current impact on the game and act like he's already got past those issues.

Went through this with Donovan last year where people were comparing Donovan (who was great for a rookie) to Simmons who was just great. Now Donovan is playing at the same level as last year and people are acting like it's disappointing because they spent the whole season convincing themselves he was already a star despite his clear and obvious flaws. Chill with acting like every poster that doesn't see him as a top 60 player already is on drugs.

[MemphisX]

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[BAMAFREAK]

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Ohhhh baby

[gh123]

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Those % are ridiculous...