Gonzaga prospects (Clarke, Hachimura, Tillie, Norvell)

[nolang1]

That explains a 4 block per game difference? And shouldn't he have more steals then? I don't know. I don't really remember Grant in college, but I doubt he's anywhere near the defender that Clarke is now, especially in terms of rim protection.

Grant was way younger when drafted.

Ok? Does that mean he's as good of a defender or shot blocker? Age doesn't mean anything if you don't use that time to improve. Look at the improvement Clarke made between this year and when he was SJSU.

The fact that you didn't know the difference between man and zone defense is disqualifying enough that there's not gonna be much gained from this conversation. So instead I'll just say sure, Brandon Clarke is infinity times better at defense than Jerami Grant in hopes that you will stop going on about this.

[clyde21]

Grant was way younger when drafted.

Ok? Does that mean he's as good of a defender or shot blocker? Age doesn't mean anything if you don't use that time to improve. Look at the improvement Clarke made between this year and when he was SJSU.

The fact that you didn't know the difference between man and zone defense is disqualifying enough that there's not gonna be much gained from this conversation. So instead I'll just say sure, Brandon Clarke is infinity times better at defense than Jerami Grant in hopes that you will stop talking.

Wait, when did I say I don't know the difference between man and zone defense? I literally told you that it doesn't explain the variance in shot blocks, and certainly not why Clarke has more steals than Grant (given that he played in a zone, he should probably have more steals, then, huh). Sounds like you're the one that doesn't understand the difference.

But you're moved the goal posts twice already in this discussion (first zone (derp) and then age (derp derp), so it's obvious that you don't want to have a conversation in good faith per usual. Don't @ me.

[Duke4life831]

I kind of see a more aggressive (on offense) version of Jordan Bell. Bell was a 10 rebound and 3.5 block per 40 in college. That's what Clarke was last year and wouldn't be surprised if his numbers come close to that by the end of the year. I'm curious where Clarke's FG% ends up at the end of the year, I doubt it stays around 77%. Again Clarke was more aggressive, but I'm not seeing a guy that is going to create his own offense in the NBA. Bell was the PAC-12 defensive player of the year.

Again if Clarke had a 3 or showed more promise of a 3pt shot I would have him over these guys. But for me all the guys that I think he's similar too, ended up being late 1st or early 2nd round picks.

I maybe in the minority on it, I love his energy and hustle I just don't see an overly skilled offensive player. I see an athletic 6'7-6'8 defensive forward with questionable offensive skills. That's late 1st early 2nd choice for me.

[nolang1]

Ok? Does that mean he's as good of a defender or shot blocker? Age doesn't mean anything if you don't use that time to improve. Look at the improvement Clarke made between this year and when he was SJSU.

The fact that you didn't know the difference between man and zone defense is disqualifying enough that there's not gonna be much gained from this conversation. So instead I'll just say sure, Brandon Clarke is infinity times better at defense than Jerami Grant in hopes that you will stop talking.

Wait, when did I say I don't know the difference between man and zone defense? I literally told you that it doesn't explain the variance in shot blocks, and certainly not why Clarke has more steals than Grant (given that he played in a zone, he should probably have more steals, then, huh). Sounds like you're the one that doesn't understand the difference.

You have shown it through your responses (and like come on, you clearly haven't actually played much basketball so why keep up the charade), a 2-3 zone defense is passive and forces the opponent to take outside shots and of course in college teams are gonna try to attack the side of the zone that doesn't have an NBA-caliber athlete on the wing. It certainly does explain a lot of variance in shot-blocking given that all we heard about Marvin Bagley's shot-blocking was that he was the worst shot-blocking big to ever be picked in the lottery, and now that he's no longer playing on the wing of a 2-3 zone he's blocking shots at a perfectly respectable rate in the NBA.

[clyde21]

Norvell being a better prospec than Rui is puzzling. What does Norvell do better than Hach at this point? Shoot 3s? Even then, Hach is shooting 50% (6/12) this year so far from range.

[Hoopz Afrik]

I feel like Brandon Clarke is John Collins-esque with better defensive instincts both in the post and on the perimeter.

[eminence]

I kind of see a more aggressive (on offense) version of Jordan Bell. Bell was a 10 rebound and 3.5 block per 40 in college. That's what Clarke was last year and wouldn't be surprised if his numbers come close to that by the end of the year. I'm curious where Clarke's FG% ends up at the end of the year, I doubt it stays around 77%. Again Clarke was more aggressive, but I'm not seeing a guy that is going to create his own offense in the NBA. Bell was the PAC-12 defensive player of the year.

Again if Clarke had a 3 or showed more promise of a 3pt shot I would have him over these guys. But for me all the guys that I think he's similar too, ended up being late 1st or early 2nd round picks.

I maybe in the minority on it, I love his energy and hustle I just don't see an overly skilled offensive player. I see an athletic 6'7-6'8 defensive forward with questionable offensive skills. That's late 1st early 2nd choice for me.

Something to consider is that while all those guys were late 1st/early 2nd type guys, they also seem to be guys who pretty consistently 'make it' out of that range.

Personally I have him a solid step above those level of prospects.

[clyde21]

The fact that you didn't know the difference between man and zone defense is disqualifying enough that there's not gonna be much gained from this conversation. So instead I'll just say sure, Brandon Clarke is infinity times better at defense than Jerami Grant in hopes that you will stop talking.

Wait, when did I say I don't know the difference between man and zone defense? I literally told you that it doesn't explain the variance in shot blocks, and certainly not why Clarke has more steals than Grant (given that he played in a zone, he should probably have more steals, then, huh). Sounds like you're the one that doesn't understand the difference.

You have shown it through your responses (and like come on, you clearly haven't actually played much basketball so why keep up the charade), a 2-3 zone defense is passive and forces the opponent to take outside shots and of course in college teams are gonna try to attack the side of the zone that doesn't have an NBA-caliber athlete on the wing. It certainly does explain a lot of variance in shot-blocking given that all we heard about Marvin Bagley's shot-blocking was that he was the worst shot-blocking big to ever be picked in the lottery, and now that he's no longer playing on the wing of a 2-3 zone he's blocking shots at a perfectly respectable rate in the NBA.

I don't care what you heard about Marvin Bagley on a forum on the internet. That has nothing to do with me nor this discussion of zone vs. man. It doesn't explain the HUGE variance in blocks given that Clarke also plays a huge amount of time defensively on the perimeter (even in a man, that still matters). It also, again, doesn't explain why Clarke has almost double the steals per game than Grant did. If playing in a zone matters that much to you, why doesn't Grant have more steals since zone schemes allow for much more steals than man schemes?

And I get it, you have a hard time having a discussion without insulting the person you're talking to. I suggest you grow up a bit, or better yet, don't quote me at all, because for a guy that clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, you seem to think you're hot **** or something.

Spoiler:

dErP dId U eVen PlaY bAll BrO?!

[nolang1]

Wait, when did I say I don't know the difference between man and zone defense? I literally told you that it doesn't explain the variance in shot blocks, and certainly not why Clarke has more steals than Grant (given that he played in a zone, he should probably have more steals, then, huh). Sounds like you're the one that doesn't understand the difference.

You have shown it through your responses (and like come on, you clearly haven't actually played much basketball so why keep up the charade), a 2-3 zone defense is passive and forces the opponent to take outside shots and of course in college teams are gonna try to attack the side of the zone that doesn't have an NBA-caliber athlete on the wing. It certainly does explain a lot of variance in shot-blocking given that all we heard about Marvin Bagley's shot-blocking was that he was the worst shot-blocking big to ever be picked in the lottery, and now that he's no longer playing on the wing of a 2-3 zone he's blocking shots at a perfectly respectable rate in the NBA.

I don't care what you heard about Marvin Bagley on a forum on the internet. That has nothing to do with me nor this discussion of zone vs. man. It doesn't explain the HUGE variance in blocks given that Clarke also plays a huge amount of time defensively on the perimeter (even in a man, that still matters). It also, again, doesn't explain why Clarke has almost double the steals per game than Grant did. If playing in a zone matters that much to you, why doesn't Grant have more steals since zone schemes allow for much more steals than man schemes?

And I get it, you have a hard time having a discussion without insulting the person you're talking to. I suggest you grow up a bit, or better yet, don't quote me at all, because for a guy that clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, you seem to think you're hot **** or something.

Spoiler:

dErP dId U eVen PlaY bAll BrO?!

So you've gone from not knowing the difference between man and zone defense to making up blanket claims such as that zone defense leads to more steals. How would that even be possible when when there are all sorts of different zone defenses and one like Syracuse's is designed to make opponents to spend lots of time passing the ball around the perimeter (their tempo ranked 344th of 351 teams in D1 the year Grant was drafted, to the point that if you were looking at steals per 100 possessions you'd see 1.7 for 19-year-old Grant and 2.3 for 22-year-old Clarke, which obviously isn't nearly as huge a difference as you were portraying) before shooting a contested shot against length? Seems like common sense that properly executing that type of defense would lead to fewer steal opportunities. For you to say something like "he averaged almost double the amount of steals!" without accounting for something as simple as that is pretty insulting to the intelligence of the average person.

And then there's the whole deal where Jerami Grant (who is just 2.5 years older) is doing quite well in playing an important role for OKC's #1-ranked defense, so being "infinitely better" at defense would mean Clarke is supposed to be a 5x DPOY or something of that ilk.

[clyde21]

You have shown it through your responses (and like come on, you clearly haven't actually played much basketball so why keep up the charade), a 2-3 zone defense is passive and forces the opponent to take outside shots and of course in college teams are gonna try to attack the side of the zone that doesn't have an NBA-caliber athlete on the wing. It certainly does explain a lot of variance in shot-blocking given that all we heard about Marvin Bagley's shot-blocking was that he was the worst shot-blocking big to ever be picked in the lottery, and now that he's no longer playing on the wing of a 2-3 zone he's blocking shots at a perfectly respectable rate in the NBA.

I don't care what you heard about Marvin Bagley on a forum on the internet. That has nothing to do with me nor this discussion of zone vs. man. It doesn't explain the HUGE variance in blocks given that Clarke also plays a huge amount of time defensively on the perimeter (even in a man, that still matters). It also, again, doesn't explain why Clarke has almost double the steals per game than Grant did. If playing in a zone matters that much to you, why doesn't Grant have more steals since zone schemes allow for much more steals than man schemes?

And I get it, you have a hard time having a discussion without insulting the person you're talking to. I suggest you grow up a bit, or better yet, don't quote me at all, because for a guy that clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, you seem to think you're hot **** or something.

Spoiler:

dErP dId U eVen PlaY bAll BrO?!

So you've gone from not knowing the difference between man and zone defense to making up blanket claims such as that zone defense leads to more steals. How would that even be possible when when there are all sorts of different zone defenses and one like Syracuse's is designed to make opponents to spend lots of time passing the ball around the perimeter (their tempo ranked 344th of 351 teams in D1 the year Grant was drafted, to the point that if you were looking at steals per 100 possessions you'd see 1.7 for 20-year-old Grant and 2.3 for 23 year-old Clarke, which obviously isn't as huge a difference as you were portraying) before shooting a contested shot against length and properly executing it certainly would lead to fewer steal opportunities.

And then there's the whole deal where Jerami Grant (who is just 2.5 years older) is doing quite well in playing an important role for OKC's #1-ranked defense, so being "infinitely better" at defense would mean Clarke is supposed to be a 5x DPOY or something of that ilk.

That's literally the one of the ideas behind zone defense. It's designed to get defenders more opportunities at jumping lanes and getting transition opportunities. So, if you're going to cite zone defense for why Grant had almost FOUR less blocks per game than what Clarke already has, then it should also be noted the has almost HALF the amount of steals as well. Something isn't adding up with your logic (per usual). Especially since Clarke is actually allowed to roam to the perimeter a lot himself.

And Clarke isn't 23. He literally just turned 22. But again -- shifting goal posts. Do you even know what your point is right now?

[azcatz11]

What do you guys think Rui's ultimate ceiling is? I know he's older but his exponential growth the past few years must mean something

[PLO]

I kind of see a more aggressive (on offense) version of Jordan Bell. Bell was a 10 rebound and 3.5 block per 40 in college. That's what Clarke was last year and wouldn't be surprised if his numbers come close to that by the end of the year. I'm curious where Clarke's FG% ends up at the end of the year, I doubt it stays around 77%. Again Clarke was more aggressive, but I'm not seeing a guy that is going to create his own offense in the NBA. Bell was the PAC-12 defensive player of the year.

Again if Clarke had a 3 or showed more promise of a 3pt shot I would have him over these guys. But for me all the guys that I think he's similar too, ended up being late 1st or early 2nd round picks.

I maybe in the minority on it, I love his energy and hustle I just don't see an overly skilled offensive player. I see an athletic 6'7-6'8 defensive forward with questionable offensive skills. That's late 1st early 2nd choice for me.

That's pretty much spot on for me. Nice post.

His go to move driving is left, like he does it 85% of the time and its really allowed him to score quite well in those situations because naturally defenders tend to play an attacker as right-sided. This obviously doesn't apply in the NBA however.

I really have to see more of him on the perimeter as a defender, its clear that he has excellent IQ as a defender close to the basket. He really bailed out his teammates on a number of occasions against Duke - he does have good to great positioning no matter where he's defending on the floor but I think he's not that athletic so will struggle as a POA defender in the NBA.

I think Bell is more athletic than him TBH.

Like a lot of these types he'll be reliant on his shot translating in the NBA, because I don't think he'll offer much else at the next level on that end, but I think Fis has it right, any other draft he would go lower but in this one, he could well crack the top 20.

[clyde21]

What do you guys think Rui's ultimate ceiling is? I know he's older but his exponential growth the past few years must mean something

I dunno, tough to say. Rudy Gay maybe?

[mojo13]

Here are a few minutes of offensive highlights. His shot looks decent.

Watch on YouTube

The Stepien does a very thorough analysis of his game as well. They are extremely high on him.

https://www.thestepien.com/2018/12/03/analyzing-brandon-clarkes-nba-potential/

[No-Man]

Norvell being a better prospec than Rui is puzzling. What does Norvell do better than Hach at this point? Shoot 3s? Even then, Hach is shooting 50% (6/12) this year so far from range.

Eeeh, dribble, pass, shoot, defend, I mean about everything, Norvell has enough size and craft to be a two way SG that can put it on the floor and do some stuff, think Etwaun Moore, not sure what the hell Rui does for you, cause at the moment he projects as a purely offense oriented back-up big, which are a dime in a dozen

[PLO]

Here are a few minutes of offensive highlights. His shot looks decent.

Watch on YouTube

The Stepien does a very thorough analysis of his game as well. They are extremely high on him.

https://www.thestepien.com/2018/12/03/analyzing-brandon-clarkes-nba-potential/

Jackson Hoy knows his stuff, that's a good article.

[Funcrusher]

Norvell being a better prospec than Rui is puzzling. What does Norvell do better than Hach at this point? Shoot 3s? Even then, Hach is shooting 50% (6/12) this year so far from range.

Eeeh, dribble, pass, shoot, defend, I mean about everything, Norvell has enough size and craft to be a two way SG that can put it on the floor and do some stuff, think Etwaun Moore, not sure what the hell Rui does for you, cause at the moment he projects as a purely offense oriented back-up big, which are a dime in a dozen

Etwaun Moore is not a two way SG. What are you talking about?

[No-Man]

Norvell being a better prospec than Rui is puzzling. What does Norvell do better than Hach at this point? Shoot 3s? Even then, Hach is shooting 50% (6/12) this year so far from range.

Eeeh, dribble, pass, shoot, defend, I mean about everything, Norvell has enough size and craft to be a two way SG that can put it on the floor and do some stuff, think Etwaun Moore, not sure what the hell Rui does for you, cause at the moment he projects as a purely offense oriented back-up big, which are a dime in a dozen

Etwaun Moore is not a two way SG. What are you talking about?

He is fine enough, solid team defense, can't do much against bigger guys and suffers in playoff settings, but is an okay player on tht end, esp considering how much he has to play SF or defend bigger wings for that team

If you are only calling two-way wings to the ones that are from the upper echelon, we have like 10 legit 2-way wings in the league tops

Still, Moore is probably average for his position or so, that's okay, and those type of guys with his shooting to me carry more value than what Rui projects as been unless you expect Hachimura to exponentially improve at about everything, he is a below avg skilled player as a F (3 or 4) and his defense sucks for the most part, so what is he really? a less crazy, but worse defending version of Al Harrington? good character Terrence Jones? like... meh really

[Hoopz Afrik]

What do you guys think Rui's ultimate ceiling is? I know he's older but his exponential growth the past few years must mean something

Somewhere in that Antawn Jamison and Shareef Abdur-Rahim range at his absolute best.

[eminence]

Do y'all see Tillie more as a 4 or 5 as a prospect?