Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[Ruzious]

Well, if in addition to Ball & KCP the 3d player were Josh Hart (i.e. rather than Ingram -- as one of Kev's sources says is under discussion) I would regard this as an incredible deal for the Wizards, a deal beyond what I could have imagined possible.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it would be the best move of Ernie's long & dis(I mean ex)tinguished career as a GM. I might even forgive him some of his previous idiotic moves.

But... it's hard to believe it will happen, & I am not holding my breath.

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

Absolutely. But there's also a lot of potential for him not to reach. & there's a whole lot of "actual" in Hart as well. In fact, Ingram would have to realize a huge amount of his potential just to get near the level at which Josh Hart is playing right now.

Even Ingram's doing that is speculative. Ingram has already played almost 5000 NBA minutes. He did improve from year 1 to year 2, which is in his favor. But, his productivity this year has dropped back down to the neighborhood of his rookie year (scoring is better than as a rookie; but most everything else is worse).

Of course, he might do it. He might get to the level Josh Hart is at right now. As you point out, he's 2.5 years younger than Josh. For that matter, he might do more than that. But, he hasn't yet. I'll count those eggs when they hatch. If they do....

Plus, as a 2d year player who's played all of 2000 minutes & is already extremely good, Josh Hart also has a lot of potential to improve.

I hope Ingram becomes a tremendous player, but if I had to choose between him & Hart today, I would have no hesitation in taking Hart. YMMV. Lets hope we actually have a shot at one or another version of the trade!

It's like you think you're being insightful by pointing out that a player might not reach their potential. If you don't take chances on potential, you'll never be more than mediocre.

[nate33]

Well, if in addition to Ball & KCP the 3d player were Josh Hart (i.e. rather than Ingram -- as one of Kev's sources says is under discussion) I would regard this as an incredible deal for the Wizards, a deal beyond what I could have imagined possible.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it would be the best move of Ernie's long & dis(I mean ex)tinguished career as a GM. I might even forgive him some of his previous idiotic moves.

But... it's hard to believe it will happen, & I am not holding my breath.

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

To tell you the truth, I'd do this deal for KCP plus any two of Ball, Ingram, Hart or Kuzma.

From the Lakers' standpoint, it probably makes the most sense for them to send Ball and Ingram. The reason would be to maximize the amount of cap room they have in the summer for free agents to join Lebron, Wall, Hart and Kuzma. (Hart and Kuzma each make peanuts.) Also, Ball clearly should be included because they won't need any more ball dominant players on a team with Wall and Lebron.

Hell, I'd do the deal for just Ball.

[payitforward]

...for PIF as he loves breaking down trades/scenarios.

...Wall, Mahinmi, and Green for
KCP
1 of Ball or Rondo
1 of Beasley or Lance
Zubac and Svi...

That's a head-spinner.... Suppose it's

Wall / Mahinmi / Green -- out
KCP / Rondo / Lance / Zubac / Svi -- in

The first 3 of those 5 guys coming in are expiring. I don't know, in any case, how much I'd want to keep KCP, Rondo or Stephenson.

Svi hasn't played a single minute. Zubac has played 57 minutes.

Don't understand the trade for us. Does it even get us out of the tax this year? Maybe just barely...? Definitely a big help next year.

It's radical -- say that for it!

[nate33]

I would simply bring in the Magic for a 3-way and send them Ball, Oubre, and Smith for Augustin, Martin, Frazier and top 10 protected 1st.

Out of the tax with the following:
Augustin / Rivers
Beal / KCP / Frazier
Sato / Green / Brown
Otto / Morris / Green
Bryant / Mahinmi / Dwight

We could then look to trade any of our expirings (River, KCP, Green, or Morris) to a contender for another asset.

We then rebuild around Beal & Otto with Sato, Brown, Bryant, and 2 2019 1st.
It also doesnt preclude us from a deeper rebuild in the summer or following deadline with Beal if we deem it necessary.

Interesting idea.

But do we really think a top 10 protected pick in this draft has more potential talent than Lonzo Ball? Why not just see how Lonzo works out? Indeed, if the goal is to tank, we might be better off with an inexperienced 21-year-old at the helm than DJ Augustin.

Also, with Wall gone, we would have the money to pay Oubre if we so desired. He would no longer be a "trade him or lose him" asset. We would have the luxury of waiting and seeing what his market value is this summer before making the decision whether to let him go. (By the way, Oubre's performance against the Knicks was good enough to bring up his season averages so much that he now looks a bit better than last season.)

[Ruzious]

Well, if in addition to Ball & KCP the 3d player were Josh Hart (i.e. rather than Ingram -- as one of Kev's sources says is under discussion) I would regard this as an incredible deal for the Wizards, a deal beyond what I could have imagined possible.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it would be the best move of Ernie's long & dis(I mean ex)tinguished career as a GM. I might even forgive him some of his previous idiotic moves.

But... it's hard to believe it will happen, & I am not holding my breath.

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

To tell you the truth, I'd do this deal for KCP plus any two of Ball, Ingram, Hart or Kuzma.

From the Lakers' standpoint, it probably makes the most sense for them to send Ball and Ingram. The reason would be to maximize the amount of cap room they have in the summer for free agents to join Lebron, Wall, Hart and Kuzma. (Hart and Kuzma each make peanuts.) Also, Ball clearly should be included because they won't need any more ball dominant players on a team with Wall and Lebron.

Hell, I'd do the deal for just Ball.

Absolutely.

Btw, I remember calling for Wall for Ball and lots more assets deals during mid last season - several times, because Ball is going to be a very good player for a lot of years - in spite of his father.

[payitforward]

In my dreams...

#1 FIRE ERNIE...

I think that has to be both #1 & #2 -- what if he doesn't hear you the first time?

[nate33]

...for PIF as he loves breaking down trades/scenarios.

...Wall, Mahinmi, and Green for
KCP
1 of Ball or Rondo
1 of Beasley or Lance
Zubac and Svi...

That's a head-spinner.... Suppose it's

Wall / Mahinmi / Green -- out
KCP / Rondo / Lance / Zubac / Svi -- in

The first 3 of those 5 guys coming in are expiring. I don't know, in any case, how much I'd want to keep KCP, Rondo or Stephenson.

Svi hasn't played a single minute. Zubac has played 57 minutes.

Don't understand the trade for us. Does it even get us out of the tax this year? Maybe just barely...? Definitely a big help next year.

It's radical -- say that for it!

If we dump Wall, our future luxtax problems go away. There is no longer a compelling interest to sacrifice assets in order to dump Mahinmi. If Wall and Mahinmi land us Ball and filler, then Wall by himself should land us Ball plus another young player or pick. I'd definitely prefer the latter.

[payitforward]

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

Absolutely. But there's also a lot of potential for him not to reach. & there's a whole lot of "actual" in Hart as well. In fact, Ingram would have to realize a huge amount of his potential just to get near the level at which Josh Hart is playing right now.

Even Ingram's doing that is speculative. Ingram has already played almost 5000 NBA minutes. He did improve from year 1 to year 2, which is in his favor. But, his productivity this year has dropped back down to the neighborhood of his rookie year (scoring is better than as a rookie; but most everything else is worse).

Of course, he might do it. He might get to the level Josh Hart is at right now. As you point out, he's 2.5 years younger than Josh. For that matter, he might do more than that. But, he hasn't yet. I'll count those eggs when they hatch. If they do....

Plus, as a 2d year player who's played all of 2000 minutes & is already extremely good, Josh Hart also has a lot of potential to improve.

I hope Ingram becomes a tremendous player, but if I had to choose between him & Hart today, I would have no hesitation in taking Hart. YMMV. Lets hope we actually have a shot at one or another version of the trade!

It's like you think you're being insightful by pointing out that a player might not reach their potential. If you don't take chances on potential, you'll never be more than mediocre.

Holy moly, Ruz, who cut you off in traffic?

As I wrote the first time: "Lets hope we actually have a shot at one or another version of the trade! "

[nate33]

It sure would be interesting to swap Wall for Ball and Ingram. And if Oubre gets out of his slump and starts looking like the player we saw over the first half of last season, we'd have a roster chock full of 6-6 to 6-9 guys who can switch 1-4 with no problems: Ball, Beal, Sato, Ingram, Brown, Oubre and Porter.

We would really just need to fine one rangy center in the Jarrett Allen/Mitchell Robinson/Clint Capela mold and it would be a pretty good core. I wonder what Nerlens Noel would cost in free agency this summer?

[Ruzious]

Absolutely. But there's also a lot of potential for him not to reach. & there's a whole lot of "actual" in Hart as well. In fact, Ingram would have to realize a huge amount of his potential just to get near the level at which Josh Hart is playing right now.

Even Ingram's doing that is speculative. Ingram has already played almost 5000 NBA minutes. He did improve from year 1 to year 2, which is in his favor. But, his productivity this year has dropped back down to the neighborhood of his rookie year (scoring is better than as a rookie; but most everything else is worse).

Of course, he might do it. He might get to the level Josh Hart is at right now. As you point out, he's 2.5 years younger than Josh. For that matter, he might do more than that. But, he hasn't yet. I'll count those eggs when they hatch. If they do....

Plus, as a 2d year player who's played all of 2000 minutes & is already extremely good, Josh Hart also has a lot of potential to improve.

I hope Ingram becomes a tremendous player, but if I had to choose between him & Hart today, I would have no hesitation in taking Hart. YMMV. Lets hope we actually have a shot at one or another version of the trade!

It's like you think you're being insightful by pointing out that a player might not reach their potential. If you don't take chances on potential, you'll never be more than mediocre.

Holy moly, Ruz, who cut you off in traffic?

As I wrote the first time: "Lets hope we actually have a shot at one or another version of the trade! "

And right you are, Boy Blunder!

Edit - no (or little) offense intended. Your "Holy moly, Ruz" comment sounded like a comment from Robin in an out-dated Batman episode - which would typically be responded to by an arch-villian the way I did. Sorry if it sounded overly harsh.

[Induveca]

No way in hell I’d take Hart over Ingram. Read an article
on Ingram’s life and upbringing/work ethic. And he’s 21, 6’10” and scores anywhere on the court already. He’ll improve, and Coach K lavishes praise on him whenever asked.

Hart? He’ll be 24 in 3 months and is a SG. Yeah he’s solid, but Ingram if he doesn’t work out will still fetch great trade value. Hart? Not so much.

A lineup of:

Ball
Beal
Ingram
Porter
Whomever

Easy team to root for.

[Dark Faze]

No way in hell I’d take Hart over Ingram. Read an article
on Ingram’s life and upbringing/work ethic. And he’s 21, 6’10” and scores anywhere on the court already. He’ll improve, and Coach K lavishes praise on him whenever asked.

Hart? He’ll be 24 in 3 months and is a SG. Yeah he’s solid, but Ingram if he doesn’t work out will still fetch great trade value. Hart? Not so much.

A lineup of:

Ball
Beal
Ingram
Porter
Whomever

Easy team to root for.

Same.

I don't really like Ingrams game right now...but I hated Beals at the same age.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Am I the only one here who wants no part of Ball? He looks awful glancing at the stats and he has this dad guy.

[payitforward]

No way in hell I’d take Hart over Ingram. Read an article
on Ingram’s life and upbringing/work ethic. And he’s 21, 6’10” and scores anywhere on the court already. He’ll improve, and Coach K lavishes praise on him whenever asked.

Hart? He’ll be 24 in 3 months and is a SG. Yeah he’s solid, but Ingram if he doesn’t work out will still fetch great trade value. Hart? Not so much.

A lineup of:

Ball
Beal
Ingram
Porter
Whomever

Easy team to root for.

Same.

I don't really like Ingrams game right now...but I hated Beals at the same age.

I wish I thought this was a real issue -- i.e. that we had a chance at this trade & a real question about which of the 2 guys we'd prefer. As it is, I fear it's pretty theoretical.

In any case, no one would deny that Ingram is a gifted kid w/ the potential for a terrific career. Assuming neither of these trades happen, we'll have the chance to see the careers of these two young guys unfold. We'll know who was right. Not much riding on it (at least not for me) but time will tell all the same.

[dangermouse]

As a huge Wall fanboy and apologist... I hate to say it...

But i'd do that trade AND I would be more excited about watching the Wizards this season.

This team as constructed could have been a contender this year, the window was open but the wheels fell off and we arent going to get them back on again. We aren't going to get past Raps, Sixers or Celts in the playoffs, and I give us an outside chance to beat Bucks or even the Hornets.

With this trade it shuts the window, but the window could be open again as early as next season. The Claw could head West. That would leave Sixers, Bucks and Celts as the real contenders while Raps probably blow it up in that scenario, and all those teams could easy be digested by the 'everybody eats' Wizards.

[Shoe]

As a huge Wall fanboy and apologist... I hate to say it...

But i'd do that trade AND I would be more excited about watching the Wizards this season.

This team as constructed could have been a contender this year, the window was open but the wheels fell off and we arent going to get them back on again. We aren't going to get past Raps, Sixers or Celts in the playoffs, and I give us an outside chance to beat Bucks or even the Hornets.

With this trade it shuts the window, but the window could be open again as early as next season. The Claw could head West. That would leave Sixers, Bucks and Celts as the real contenders while Raps probably blow it up in that scenario, and all those teams could easy be digested by the 'everybody eats' Wizards.

I can't agree. One all-star and a bunch of eaters isn't going to breakthrough in the postseason. Wall has brought it during the playoffs and currently no one could compensate for his missing 26 & 11. They would be angling to become the Raptors sans Kawhi. Everybody eats is fine, but the Wizards would only have one big belly. They would need to get another player with a big appetite, not guys who are content with table scraps; and it would have to be an all-star that could fit next to Beal and could function within the team ball identity. I imagine Giannis and Embiid would takeover games against just a bunch of guys who like to share the ball.

[pancakes3]

wall's trade window should be shut. if somehow a team is delusional enough to forget that he's got 40 mil/year coming his way and trades for him, that's a windfall for us.

and i like wall. he's a good player, but you can't get the supermax if you can't shoot the 3. not in today's NBA.

[Induveca]

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

Agree on both counts. Hart is the kind of player I’d love to see in a Wizards uni (plus he's a local kid), but I too believe that Ingram has the higher upside. On top of that, if you trade for Hart and keep Beal that would mean that Hart would most likely come off the bench. Ingram, on the other hand, could be plugged into SF next to Otto at PF.

Ingram’s numbers are down this season. But I think some of that has to do with him sharing the court with King James. Their games don’t mesh well.

It's a strange trade for the Lakers, however, given that Wall doesn't seem like the best fit next to Lebron. Wall needs the ball to excel (as does James) and Wall is a lousy jumpshooter...and James is at his best when he's surrounded by good or great perimeter shooters.

Though I have to give Wallstar props for his continued improvement as a three pt shooter.

“Local kids” have been a curse on the Wizards for 20 years. No thanks.

[queridiculo]

wall's trade window should be shut. if somehow a team is delusional enough to forget that he's got 40 mil/year coming his way and trades for him, that's a windfall for us.

and i like wall. he's a good player, but you can't get the supermax if you can't shoot the 3. not in today's NBA.

It's not even the three point shooting, the main issue I have with Wall as a franchise player is that the game is quickly shifting into a position less affair.

The name of the game is versatility, and if Wall can't find a way to affect the game without dominating possession the Wizards aren't going to be able to take the step with him as the top player.

[queridiculo]

Am I the only one here who wants no part of Ball? He looks awful glancing at the stats and he has this dad guy.

Stats aren't going to tell you much about the positive impact Ball can have on a game.

He's a rangy defender with quick hands and feet, size, a great rebounder, and he's got top notch vision passing in transition and the half-court.

If you can put players around him to space the floor I think you could find him being a very effective player, think Rondo with more size and athleticism.

Also worth pointing out that we'd have Satoransky to platoon the position while we see if Ball can develop into the role of a starter.

That said, I think the real value of this trade comes from being able to add a few prospects on controlled salaries and the ability to reset the roster on the fly with a ton of cap flexibility going forward.