Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[Eli Babak]

Am I the only one here who wants no part of Ball? He looks awful glancing at the stats and he has this dad guy.

Stats aren't going to tell you much about the positive impact Ball can have on a game.

He's a rangy defender with quick hands, feet and size, a great rebounder, and he's got top notch vision passing in transition and the half-court.

If you can put players around him to space the floor I think you could find him being a very effective player, think Rondo with more size and athleticism.

Also worth pointing out that we'd have Satoransky to platoon the position while we see if Ball can develop into the role of a starter.

That said, I think the real value of this trade comes from being able to add a few prospects on controlled salaries and the ability to reset the roster on the fly with a ton of cap flexibility going forward.

Agree, and it's not like Wall was great in his 2nd season either (after same amount of games):



Ball would be great fit here in DC.

[NatP4]

Ball has leadership qualities that wall does not possess at all whatsoever

[pcbothwel]

Ball has leadership qualities that wall does not possess at all whatsoever

Yeah, Im warming to Keeping Ball if we trade for him. I really think a Ball/KCP for Wall trade could revitalize this team...

That said, the FO must be pulling their hair out from time to time. You go out and get players like Beal, Otto, Sato, Brown, and Bryant and the coach doesnt use them correctly.
There is clearly some talent in our FO (Not EG ) ... I mean, we just got our own Poeltl / Hernangomez / Capela off waivers. LOL
If Ball can simply get his TS in the 51-52 range, his passing, IQ, and defense will be good enough to start him with Beal, Sato, Otto, and Bryant.
And if you have Ball and Sato starting, you know the other 3 will blow up offensively.

[payitforward]

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

To tell you the truth, I'd do this deal for KCP plus any two of Ball, Ingram, Hart or Kuzma.

From the Lakers' standpoint, it probably makes the most sense for them to send Ball and Ingram. The reason would be to maximize the amount of cap room they have in the summer for free agents to join Lebron, Wall, Hart and Kuzma. (Hart and Kuzma each make peanuts.) Also, Ball clearly should be included because they won't need any more ball dominant players on a team with Wall and Lebron.

Hell, I'd do the deal for just Ball.

Absolutely.

Btw, I remember calling for Wall for Ball and lots more assets deals during mid last season - several times, because Ball is going to be a very good player for a lot of years - in spite of his father.

Agree 100% on this. Ball/Hart/Ingram for Wall would work. Would they go for it, however?

[nate33]

wall's trade window should be shut. if somehow a team is delusional enough to forget that he's got 40 mil/year coming his way and trades for him, that's a windfall for us.

and i like wall. he's a good player, but you can't get the supermax if you can't shoot the 3. not in today's NBA.

It's not even the three point shooting, the main issue I have with Wall as a franchise player is that the game is quickly shifting into a position less affair.

The name of the game is versatility, and if Wall can't find a way to affect the game without dominating possession the Wizards aren't going to be able to take the step with him as the top player.

Indeed.

You gotta love the way the Wizards looked last night in Atlanta and during the "everyone eats" phase last year. Our team assist count was way up and 3, 4 or 5 guys would end up with 4+ assists. Against Atlanta, Beal had 9 assists, Sato had 7, Rivers had 7, and Otto had 5. You don't need a ball dominant PG anymore in this league.

Lots of other winning teams are structured this way: Milwaukee, Denver, Golden State, Boston, the Clippers. None of those teams have a primary PG who generates a disproportionate number of assists.

[payitforward]

Am I the only one here who wants no part of Ball? He looks awful glancing at the stats and he has this dad guy.

Stats aren't going to tell you much about the positive impact Ball can have on a game.

He's a rangy defender with quick hands, feet and size, a great rebounder, and he's got top notch vision passing in transition and the half-court.

If you can put players around him to space the floor I think you could find him being a very effective player, think Rondo with more size and athleticism....

Agreed -- not to mention that I don't see anything "awful" in his stats. The opposite, in fact. They are terrific -- especially for a guy this early in his career.

[nuposse04]

Ball is worth gambling on, but if he doesn't become at least an average shooter, he will be hard to play in playoff basketball. Oddly enough he does alot of what Sato does well.... rebound, efficient playmaking, moving and being active, unselfish... from what I've seen he certainly tries on defense, I'm not sure if he is actually a "good" defender.

[pancakes3]

wall's trade window should be shut. if somehow a team is delusional enough to forget that he's got 40 mil/year coming his way and trades for him, that's a windfall for us.

and i like wall. he's a good player, but you can't get the supermax if you can't shoot the 3. not in today's NBA.

It's not even the three point shooting, the main issue I have with Wall as a franchise player is that the game is quickly shifting into a position less affair.

The name of the game is versatility, and if Wall can't find a way to affect the game without dominating possession the Wizards aren't going to be able to take the step with him as the top player.

Indeed.

You gotta love the way the Wizards looked last night in Atlanta and during the "everyone eats" phase last year. Our team assist count was way up and 3, 4 or 5 guys would end up with 4+ assists. Against Atlanta, Beal had 9 assists, Sato had 7, Rivers had 7, and Otto had 5. You don't need a ball dominant PG anymore in this league.

Lots of other winning teams are structured this way: Milwaukee, Denver, Golden State, Boston, the Clippers. None of those teams have a primary PG who generates a disproportionate number of assists.

i don't think we're disagreeing. positionless basketball means players that can defend multiple positions, while being able to score from all over the court - and that ability to score from all over is essentially code for being able to shoot the 3.

and that's really why i'm not entirely ecstatic about getting Ball and Ingram - not only are they bad 3P shooters, they're bad FT shooters to boot. we still have to pull the trigger though bc Wall's contract is a noose around our necks.

[Shanghai Kid]

I understand that Kev is a legit source, but I can't grasp any reason why the Lakers would want John?

It doesn't seem to make sense cap wise or basketball wise. The only thing that makes sense is that Wall and Lebron are both Rich Paul clients. But I can't see how Magic would be able to justify Wall to the media/fanbase.

It'd be an easy decision for the Wiz, but I can't fathom why the Lakers would go all in on Lebron/Wall vs waiting for free agency.

[One Love]

Laker fan in peace... I have always liked Wall & thought your backcourt was legit... That being said, Walls contract is absolutely brutal & would prohibit us from signing anybody with Wall & LBJ making $75 million, so I don’t see it happening...

Magic & Rob dumped Russell to get of Mozgov & let Randle walk to get CAP space... They aren’t going to dump it on Wall, in my opinion, as Ball, Hart & Kuzz are Magic’s picks... Ingram was Mitch...

All you guys need is a short win streak to get the mojo back... Good luck this season...

[DCZards]

I'm a big Hart fan - have been since his second to last season at Villanova, but I think it's obvious that Ingram has more potential. And you should factor in that Ingram is 2 and a half years younger than Hart. Ingram has been a little disappointing this season, but there's a lot of potential left for him to reach.

Agree on both counts. Hart is the kind of player I’d love to see in a Wizards uni (plus he's a local kid), but I too believe that Ingram has the higher upside. On top of that, if you trade for Hart and keep Beal that would mean that Hart would most likely come off the bench. Ingram, on the other hand, could be plugged into SF next to Otto at PF.

Ingram’s numbers are down this season. But I think some of that has to do with him sharing the court with King James. Their games don’t mesh well.

It's a strange trade for the Lakers, however, given that Wall doesn't seem like the best fit next to Lebron. Wall needs the ball to excel (as does James) and Wall is a lousy jumpshooter...and James is at his best when he's surrounded by good or great perimeter shooters.

Though I have to give Wallstar props for his continued improvement as a three pt shooter.

“Local kids” have been a curse on the Wizards for 20 years. No thanks.

So you were glad when KD (a local kid) opted for the Warriors...rather than the Zards?

[nate33]

I understand that Kev is a legit source, but I can't grasp any reason why the Lakers would want John?

It doesn't seem to make sense cap wise or basketball wise. The only thing that makes sense is that Wall and Lebron are both Rich Paul clients. But I can't see how Magic would be able to justify Wall to the media/fanbase.

It'd be an easy decision for the Wiz, but I can't fathom why the Lakers would go all in on Lebron/Wall vs waiting for free agency.

The rumor is that no superstar-tier free agents want to play with Lebron. Either it's because it's difficult to subjugate one's own game to comply with Lebron's, or maybe it's just that nobody wants the Kevin Durant treatment where any titles won alongside Lebron are "tainted" because it was done by riding Lebron's coattails.

Looking at the superstar tier free agents out there, it seems plausible:

• Durant has no reason to go to the Lakers. If he wants to win, he stays put. The only rationale to leave is to win someplace as the undisputed superstar of the team. That's not in L.A.
• Likewise, Kawhi has just as much of a chance to win in Toronto as L.A. but he'll do it as the sole superstar in Toronto.
• Kyrie isn't going to join Lebron for obvious reasons
• I don't see why Jimmy Butler would do so either. Not when he's in a better situation in Philly.
• Klay is at least plausible if the Lakers are willing to pay him more than Golden State will. But my guess is that Golden State will at least offer as much as the Lakers can. And if that's the case, Klay stays.

After that, you're looking at guys like Cousins, Middleton and Tobias Harris. Those guys are not clear cut better than Wall and/or they don't fit as well. And there's no guarantee that they could land any of them. So ultimately, going after Wall might be the best option. There's also the Rich Paul connection. And if the trade is done right, LA would still have some cap room to fill out the roster. The key is that Wall only costs $18M this year. If they trade for Wall now, they can then use other assets, package them with expiring contracts like Rondo's, and land other guys right now.

[pancakes3]

the best i can figure is that the rumors re: nobody wanting to play w Lebron is real and even with cap space, they're not going to land Kawhi, Durant, Butler, or Klay, and trade is the only way to lock in an all-nba caliber talent.

and i think we all agree that if we're the lakers we wouldn't trade for Wall, but we're also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here.

[nate33]

the best i can figure is that the rumors re: nobody wanting to play w Lebron is real and even with cap space, they're not going to land Kawhi, Durant, Butler, or Klay, and trade is the only way to lock in an all-nba caliber talent.

and i think we all agree that if we're the lakers we wouldn't trade for Wall, but we're also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense for LA.

The key is to not view it as the final trade. If LA trades for Wall right now while Wall still only costs $18M against the cap, they can then make other trades to try and land more stars before the Trade Deadline. They can package more expiring contracts and picks/prospects for good-but-overpaid guys, or for free agents who look unlikely to stay for cap reasons.

What if, for example, there is word that Milwaukee won't retain Middleton? Could the Lakers trade for Middleton now and then resign him in the summer? There are other guys too. What about Vucevic? Julius Randle? Terry Rozier? Paul Millsap? Either Morris twin? All of these guys seem unlikely to stay on their current team this summer and their teams probably know it. They could trade them to LA for an expiring and a pick/prospect, which is better than letting them walk for nothing.

Indeed, this might have been their plan all along. It's why they inexplicably signed KCP and Rondo to 1-year, high-priced contracts. They'll make good ballast in a trade.

[Ruzious]

the best i can figure is that the rumors re: nobody wanting to play w Lebron is real and even with cap space, they're not going to land Kawhi, Durant, Butler, or Klay, and trade is the only way to lock in an all-nba caliber talent.

and i think we all agree that if we're the lakers we wouldn't trade for Wall, but we're also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense for LA.

The key is to not view it as the final trade. If LA trades for Wall right now while Wall still only costs $18M against the cap, they can then make other trades to try and land more stars before the Trade Deadline. They can package more expiring contracts and picks/prospects for good-but-overpaid guys, or for free agents who look unlikely to stay for cap reasons.

What if, for example, there is word that Milwaukee won't retain Middleton? Could the Lakers trade for Middleton now and then resign him in the summer?

Yeah, and the Lakers likely have no problem going into lux tax. Now that you mention it, Milwaukee will have 3 free agents - Middleton, Brogdon, and Bledsoe, and they'll likely only be able to afford 2 of them.

[nate33]

the best i can figure is that the rumors re: nobody wanting to play w Lebron is real and even with cap space, they're not going to land Kawhi, Durant, Butler, or Klay, and trade is the only way to lock in an all-nba caliber talent.

and i think we all agree that if we're the lakers we wouldn't trade for Wall, but we're also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense for LA.

The key is to not view it as the final trade. If LA trades for Wall right now while Wall still only costs $18M against the cap, they can then make other trades to try and land more stars before the Trade Deadline. They can package more expiring contracts and picks/prospects for good-but-overpaid guys, or for free agents who look unlikely to stay for cap reasons.

What if, for example, there is word that Milwaukee won't retain Middleton? Could the Lakers trade for Middleton now and then resign him in the summer?

Yeah, and the Lakers likely have no problem going into lux tax. Now that you mention it, Milwaukee will have 3 free agents - Middleton, Brogdon, and Bledsoe, and they'll likely only be able to afford 2 of them.

My guess is that LA is putting feelers out throughout the league to see if they can put together enough trades to make this a viable strategy. They probably won't commit to a Wall trade unless they also have a Middleton trade (or something similar) or two, lined up before the Trade Deadline.

Can anybody think of any other really good soon-to-be free agents that seem unlikely to stay put this offseason because of financial constraints? Preferably the soon-to-be free agent plays on a team that isn't a realistic title contender, making the team more inclined to deal him now.

Kelly Oubre is another possibility.

[pancakes3]

i'm not buying the idea that Wall is an intermediate piece. wall is a hot potato, and nobody wants to be stuck with him at the end.

it's no surprise that the only 2 franchises that are making rumors news are the knicks and lakers. the only players eligible are the franchise dumb enough to give him the contract, and the two franchises rich enough to be dumb re: contracts

[nate33]

i'm not buying the idea that Wall is an intermediate piece. wall is a hot potato, and nobody wants to be stuck with him at the end.

it's no surprise that the only 2 franchises that are making rumors news are the knicks and lakers. the only players eligible are the franchise dumb enough to give him the contract, and the two franchises rich enough to be dumb re: contracts

Wall is a $25M player who will unfortunately be paid $40M. But that's exactly how a guy with that talent can be available. The salary isn't a problem as long as your not looking to add more talent. The key is to add him to a team that has a plan to add enough pieces around him.

What if, for example, the Lakers lined up these 3 trades:

Ball + KCP for Wall
Ingram + Lance Stevenson for Middleton
Kuzma + Rondo + Beasley for Vucevic

The premise to all these trades is that the Wall, Middleton and Vucevic won't be staying with their team anyhow because they're all due to be paid a lot more money and their teams either can't or won't pay it. In each case, the team trades away their guy for some value (Ball, Middleton and Kuzma respectively) rather than getting no value when their free agent walks.

Next year, the Lakers would have the following lineup:

PG Wall
SG Bell
SF Middleton
PF Lebron
C Vucevic

That's the best team Lebron has had since his Miami days. And they'd also still have the full MLE at their disposal this summer as well as their draft pick. And you know that some ring-chasing over-the-hill vets would join them on vet-minimum contracts. Could they land Ariza? Or Jeff Green? Or Kyle Korver?

[Illmatic12]

I understand that Kev is a legit source, but I can't grasp any reason why the Lakers would want John?

It doesn't seem to make sense cap wise or basketball wise. The only thing that makes sense is that Wall and Lebron are both Rich Paul clients. But I can't see how Magic would be able to justify Wall to the media/fanbase.

It'd be an easy decision for the Wiz, but I can't fathom why the Lakers would go all in on Lebron/Wall vs waiting for free agency.

What is hard to grasp? Magic Johnson has been talking a big game since he took the job and claims he will bring STARS (plural, with an 's' ) to LA.

John Wall is an All-Star. The Lakers want All-Stars .

There is no reason to assume that the Lakers have put all their eggs in the free agency basket, now that there's a track record of multiple players not wanting to play with Lebron when they had the chance (Irving, Paul George) and multiple upcoming FAs reportedly speaking out on not wanting to play with him (Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Klay Thompson)

Thinking about how Magic will justify John Wall to the Lakers fanbase.. you should be asking how he'll justify striking out on all the top FAs, and signing the likes of KCP or Michael Beasley to another one-year deal.

[getrichordie]

Hey guys, just stopping by to run a trade by you guys to get your thoughts:

—

sacramento gets:

otto porter jr.
patrick patterson
satoransky
future 2nd (via OKC)

—

washington gets:

steven adams
hamidou diallo
alex abrines
justin jackson
zach randolph
kosta koufos
future FRP (top 10 protected; via OKC)

—

okc gets:

bradley beal
ian mahinmi
thomas bryant
harry giles


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