2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[Sactowndog]

Bagley over his last 7 games since they gave him a boost in minutes (from about 20 to 28 minutes)

16.5/8.5 with an assist and a block on 58% shooting in just 28 minutes.

He is also not putting up empty stats on a crappy team either. As everyone knows Sac has actually been playing good basketball and winning. I think he is being somewhat slept on at the moment.

Bagley likely isn’t the best rookie. From what I’ve seen Luka likely is that guy. What is amazing about Luka is how skilled he is at his age. His timing on the gather is very advanced. The question on Luka is how much higher is his ceiling.

Bagley’s ceiling seems to be unreal. He is putting up those numbers while still learning to find teammates on the double team and refine his game.

[Sactowndog]

Lol at Suns, Kings and Hawks

Sent from my GT-I8552B using RealGM mobile app

Well suns wanted a big and they got a decent one, hawks wanted a pg and they got a decent one, just not consistent atm but kings really screwed with the trade, especially if mavs get into the playoff and their first pick isn't gonna be really "first" but more 15th.

Hawks made the trade not Kings. It’s funny though that Kings didn’t at least get something for not taking Luka. I’m not sure that many teams had Bagley very high. they could easily traded Luka, get next years first or something else and Bagley. I don’t know what Vlade was doing.

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

[gh123]

Really surprised how Bagley has been doing so far, I had him as the bust out of the top 5. But I had Bamba 2nd best after Luka, so go figure lol.

[IllmaticHandler]

Bagley over his last 7 games since they gave him a boost in minutes (from about 20 to 28 minutes)

16.5/8.5 with an assist and a block on 58% shooting in just 28 minutes.

He is also not putting up empty stats on a crappy team either. As everyone knows Sac has actually been playing good basketball and winning. I think he is being somewhat slept on at the moment.

He is trending heavy right now. He is more consistent with his production than given credit for sure. His motor is ALWAYS on. That what makes him so deadly. He is raw but productive, when that skill starts to catch up forget about it. That effort is why I always liked him over Ayton. Ayton is just way to lethargic for a bigman for me even those his offense is more refined that Bagley right now.

I think the return of Bogdan has been huge for Bagley. Bogdan has tremendous vision and he finds Bagley when Bagley cuts. The issue I saw a lot before was before Bogdan returned Bagley was coming off the bench and a lot of the time not playing with Fox. When Fox went to the bench, Sac really didn't have someone who was finding Bagley on his cuts and making smart dump offs to him. Now Bagley is either playing with Bogdan or Fox and I think that is a big reason his game is a lot more consistent.

He is also getting 2 go too moves down that he can create for himself. On the right side of the hoop he has his spin to left hand hook. Then on the other side he drives hard to his right, but instead of forcing an ugly left handed hook which was easily blocked and contested. He now is adding a nice little hop back fadeaway which is very hard to contend.

Two basic moves, but nice having a go to shot he can go to on either side of the floor that he can create for himself. And of course all the buckets he gets from his cutting and high motor.

Yeah he had a NICE hop back fadeaway in the rhythm yesterday.

[Bob8]

Well suns wanted a big and they got a decent one, hawks wanted a pg and they got a decent one, just not consistent atm but kings really screwed with the trade, especially if mavs get into the playoff and their first pick isn't gonna be really "first" but more 15th.

Hawks made the trade not Kings. It’s funny though that Kings didn’t at least get something for not taking Luka. I’m not sure that many teams had Bagley very high. they could easily traded Luka, get next years first or something else and Bagley. I don’t know what Vlade was doing.

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

my point was, that Vlade could have easily get what Hawks had, Bagley and first round pick in 2019. they were in better position than the hawks to make a deal, especially because nobody in top 5 was interesting in Bagley.

[Sactowndog]

Hawks made the trade not Kings. It’s funny though that Kings didn’t at least get something for not taking Luka. I’m not sure that many teams had Bagley very high. they could easily traded Luka, get next years first or something else and Bagley. I don’t know what Vlade was doing.

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

my point was, that Vlade could have easily get what Hawks had, Bagley and first round pick in 2019. they were in better position than the hawks to make a deal, especially because nobody in top 5 was interesting in Bagley.

I’m not sure you can make that claim. Hard to say with fact what people would have done.

[nolang1]

Well suns wanted a big and they got a decent one, hawks wanted a pg and they got a decent one, just not consistent atm but kings really screwed with the trade, especially if mavs get into the playoff and their first pick isn't gonna be really "first" but more 15th.

Hawks made the trade not Kings. It’s funny though that Kings didn’t at least get something for not taking Luka. I’m not sure that many teams had Bagley very high. they could easily traded Luka, get next years first or something else and Bagley. I don’t know what Vlade was doing.

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

The Kings didn't get anything because JJJ wasn't gonna play there (he refused to work out for them and all that), so they didn't want to take the risk of sitting at 5 and having him and Trae Young (who obviously would have been an extremely poor fit with Fox) being considered the best players available. It would have not been surprising at all if Memphis had taken Bagley over Jackson, and if Dallas represented Atlanta's only chance to trade down for Young there's a good chance they'd have drafted either Bagley or Jackson and left the other one for Memphis. Here's a pretty glowing pre-draft profile of Bagley on the Grizzlies' team site that says Ayton, Bagley, Jackson, and Doncic are considered the consensus top four players in the draft and concludes with "If the draft breaks right for Memphis, Bagley would be left as the ultimate catch on the board at No. 4." Quite revisionist to say the Kings were the only team in the top 5 interested in Bagley.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grind-city-media/mikecheck-grizzlies-draft-files-the-case-of-marvin-bagley-iii-180618

[Bob8]

Bagley over his last 7 games since they gave him a boost in minutes (from about 20 to 28 minutes)

16.5/8.5 with an assist and a block on 58% shooting in just 28 minutes.

He is also not putting up empty stats on a crappy team either. As everyone knows Sac has actually been playing good basketball and winning. I think he is being somewhat slept on at the moment.

Bagley likely isn’t the best rookie. From what I’ve seen Luka likely is that guy. What is amazing about Luka is how skilled he is at his age. His timing on the gather is very advanced. The question on Luka is how much higher is his ceiling.

Bagley’s ceiling seems to be unreal. He is putting up those numbers while still learning to find teammates on the double team and refine his game.

this is the common logical fallacies. because he's so advanced, he cannot be better. but please tell me, who is 6'8'', 230 playmaker, who is shooting 40+ for 3 and has 25/8/8?
Point is that Luka is multiple all star, even if he gets only marginally better in shooting, takes more shots and improves his conditioning. Bagley can have higher ceiling only with vivid imagination, but with vivid imagination Luka is GOAT. If Luka can become elite shooter, what looks possible, he's HOF. 6'8, 230 playmaker and elite shooter is unstoppable in todays Nba.

[Bob8]

Hawks made the trade not Kings. It’s funny though that Kings didn’t at least get something for not taking Luka. I’m not sure that many teams had Bagley very high. they could easily traded Luka, get next years first or something else and Bagley. I don’t know what Vlade was doing.

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

The Kings didn't get anything because JJJ wasn't gonna play there (he refused to work out for them and all that), so they didn't want to take the risk of sitting at 5 and having him and Trae Young (who obviously would have been an extremely poor fit with Fox) being considered the best players available. It would have not been surprising at all if Memphis had taken Bagley over Jackson, and if Dallas represented Atlanta's only chance to trade down for Young there's a good chance they'd have drafted either Bagley or Jackson and left the other one for Memphis. Here's a pretty glowing pre-draft profile of Bagley on the Grizzlies' team site that concludes with "If the draft breaks right for Memphis, Bagley would be left as the ultimate catch on the board at No. 4." Quite revisionist to say the Kings were the only team in the top 5 interested in Bagley.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grind-city-media/mikecheck-grizzlies-draft-files-the-case-of-marvin-bagley-iii-180618

Dallas would have taken WCJ, if Luka was unavailable. But if they have offered 1st round pick to Atlanta, they would have made the same offer to the Kings. atlanta would have taken young, so even if Memphis would have taken Bagley, which is unlikely, they would have ended with JJJ or Luka. But I'm 99% sure, they would have ended with Bagley and Mavs pick.

[nolang1]

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

The Kings didn't get anything because JJJ wasn't gonna play there (he refused to work out for them and all that), so they didn't want to take the risk of sitting at 5 and having him and Trae Young (who obviously would have been an extremely poor fit with Fox) being considered the best players available. It would have not been surprising at all if Memphis had taken Bagley over Jackson, and if Dallas represented Atlanta's only chance to trade down for Young there's a good chance they'd have drafted either Bagley or Jackson and left the other one for Memphis. Here's a pretty glowing pre-draft profile of Bagley on the Grizzlies' team site that concludes with "If the draft breaks right for Memphis, Bagley would be left as the ultimate catch on the board at No. 4." Quite revisionist to say the Kings were the only team in the top 5 interested in Bagley.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grind-city-media/mikecheck-grizzlies-draft-files-the-case-of-marvin-bagley-iii-180618

Dallas would have taken WCJ, if Luka was unavailable. But if they have offered 1st round pick to Atlanta, they would have made the same offer to the Kings. atlanta would have taken young, so even if Memphis would have taken Bagley, which is unlikely, they would have ended with JJJ or Luka. But I'm 99% sure, they would have ended with Bagley and Mavs pick.

Yeah you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole thing (and probably lots of other things too). How does the 99% break down? Are you 100 percent certain that Atlanta would have taken Young 3rd (even though they were clearly willing to accept some risk that another team might swoop in and trade for him when they moved down to 5th) and then 99 percent certain Memphis would have chosen Jackson over Bagley (even though they hadn't had a workout with Jackson and had to get in touch with his people on draft day so he'd release his medical information to them so) and then 100 percent certain no teams would have tried to make a trade for Bagley had he still been available at 3, 4, or 5? Sounds like a clear example of the Dunning-Kruger effect for you to claim 99 percent certainty.

[Bob8]

The Kings didn't get anything because JJJ wasn't gonna play there (he refused to work out for them and all that), so they didn't want to take the risk of sitting at 5 and having him and Trae Young (who obviously would have been an extremely poor fit with Fox) being considered the best players available. It would have not been surprising at all if Memphis had taken Bagley over Jackson, and if Dallas represented Atlanta's only chance to trade down for Young there's a good chance they'd have drafted either Bagley or Jackson and left the other one for Memphis. Here's a pretty glowing pre-draft profile of Bagley on the Grizzlies' team site that concludes with "If the draft breaks right for Memphis, Bagley would be left as the ultimate catch on the board at No. 4." Quite revisionist to say the Kings were the only team in the top 5 interested in Bagley.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grind-city-media/mikecheck-grizzlies-draft-files-the-case-of-marvin-bagley-iii-180618

Dallas would have taken WCJ, if Luka was unavailable. But if they have offered 1st round pick to Atlanta, they would have made the same offer to the Kings. atlanta would have taken young, so even if Memphis would have taken Bagley, which is unlikely, they would have ended with JJJ or Luka. But I'm 99% sure, they would have ended with Bagley and Mavs pick.

Yeah you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole thing (and probably lots of other things too). How does the 99% break down? Are you 100 percent certain that Atlanta would have taken Young 3rd (even though they were clearly willing to accept some risk that another team might swoop in and trade for him when they moved down to 5th) and then 99 percent certain Memphis would have chosen Jackson over Bagley (even though they hadn't had a workout with Jackson and had to get in touch with his people on draft day so he'd release his medical information to them so)? Sounds like the Dunning-Kruger effect in play for you to claim 99 percent certainty.

Atlanta's MG has clearly Warriors in his mind. And like I said, the worse case scenario is JJJ+first round pick of Dallas or simply Luka. Having No.2 pick meant a lot of possibilities for Divac. Cuban said that they had many offers for #5 pick, with witch some teams would made a package and make an offer for Luka.

[nolang1]

Dallas would have taken WCJ, if Luka was unavailable. But if they have offered 1st round pick to Atlanta, they would have made the same offer to the Kings. atlanta would have taken young, so even if Memphis would have taken Bagley, which is unlikely, they would have ended with JJJ or Luka. But I'm 99% sure, they would have ended with Bagley and Mavs pick.

Yeah you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole thing (and probably lots of other things too). How does the 99% break down? Are you 100 percent certain that Atlanta would have taken Young 3rd (even though they were clearly willing to accept some risk that another team might swoop in and trade for him when they moved down to 5th) and then 99 percent certain Memphis would have chosen Jackson over Bagley (even though they hadn't had a workout with Jackson and had to get in touch with his people on draft day so he'd release his medical information to them so)? Sounds like the Dunning-Kruger effect in play for you to claim 99 percent certainty.

Atlanta's MG has clearly Warriors in his mind. And like I said, the worse case scenario is JJJ+first round pick of Dallas or simply Luka. Having No.2 pick meant a lot of possibilities for Divac. Cuban said that they have many offers for #5 pick, with witch some teams would made a package and make an offer for Luka.

And as I said, that worst-case scenario would have entailed the Kings ending up with massive egg on their face as JJJ refuses to report and tries to force his way off the team. It's kind of funny that Bagley was villainized for a while because there was drama regarding how much playing time he was getting, which JJJ and his people preemptively avoided by explicitly wanting absolutely no part of being drafted by the Kings (having financial stability from one's family probably helps when it comes to being fine with the difference between being drafted 2nd and 4th or even holding out if need be as long as the end result is a better environment for one's individual development).

You also seem to be ignoring that Atlanta drafted Young 5th, not 3rd, and were given an extra first-round pick as incentive to move down and take him. That certainly does not equate to them (let alone other teams that made no such moves to draft him) valuing him as the 3rd-best player. I would bet there were more teams that had SGA ahead of Young than had Young in the top 3.

[IllmaticHandler]

but with vivid imagination Luka is GOAT

^^

[Duke4life831]

He is trending heavy right now. He is more consistent with his production than given credit for sure. His motor is ALWAYS on. That what makes him so deadly. He is raw but productive, when that skill starts to catch up forget about it. That effort is why I always liked him over Ayton. Ayton is just way to lethargic for a bigman for me even those his offense is more refined that Bagley right now.

I think the return of Bogdan has been huge for Bagley. Bogdan has tremendous vision and he finds Bagley when Bagley cuts. The issue I saw a lot before was before Bogdan returned Bagley was coming off the bench and a lot of the time not playing with Fox. When Fox went to the bench, Sac really didn't have someone who was finding Bagley on his cuts and making smart dump offs to him. Now Bagley is either playing with Bogdan or Fox and I think that is a big reason his game is a lot more consistent.

He is also getting 2 go too moves down that he can create for himself. On the right side of the hoop he has his spin to left hand hook. Then on the other side he drives hard to his right, but instead of forcing an ugly left handed hook which was easily blocked and contested. He now is adding a nice little hop back fadeaway which is very hard to contend.

Two basic moves, but nice having a go to shot he can go to on either side of the floor that he can create for himself. And of course all the buckets he gets from his cutting and high motor.

Yeah he had a NICE hop back fadeaway in the rhythm yesterday.

Its a great little thing he has added. Because that left handed hook shot while moving right was never going to be a consistent threat, just way too easy to defend. For the season Im keeping an eye on how he stacks up with AD's rookie numbers. I think Bagley has AD type of potential offensively.

[Bob8]

but with vivid imagination Luka is GOAT

^^

yes, something like that is needed for any rookie. all ceiling stuff is more than not like that. that’s way I like Luka more, because I can see 20/6/6 man without smoking anything.

[Mr B]

I'm curious how the DSJ / Doncic combo develops. Contrary to what many said before, I don't think it's a given that it can't work out and then Mavs need to trade him. Reports out of Dallas say that Smith buys into the program, has a good relationship with Doncic and is willing to adapt his game to help the team win. He obviously needs to improve his shooting, but if he can turn himself into a versatile combo guard and play D like here on a consistent basis:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/a3a48l/dsjs_insane_defense_on_the_trail_blazers/

then I don't think Dallas needs to get rid of him unless it's a deal that nets them a surefire star player.

I was for trade DSJ because it is difficult for a scorer (inefficient) to change mentality but I'm ready to eating crow if DSJ instead to make stupid shot shows always the aggressiveness in defense against Portland.

According to the beat reporters around the team and Rick Carlisle, DSJ has bought in completely. He realizes that Luka is the alpha on this team. He’s dedicated to improving his defense and being more of a scorer. The last couple of games have shown that he can be a really good fit next Luka.

[Mr B]

Doncic would have many more assists if his teammates actually made the shots

Says any fan of an individual (playmaking) player ever. You guys know they track ‘potential assists’? He would not have ‘many more assists if his teammates actually made the shots’. That's just the selective perception bias speaking.

The offense is not really designed for 1 guy to average a really high number is assists. The Mavs offense is built on penetration and ball movement. Carlisle prefers that there be 4-5 passes each possession before a shot goes up. With Luka being the primary ball handler and usually initiation the first pass his passes are not going to the guy that actually takes the shot. That was part of the problem Rondo had in Dallas. Rondo was looking to pad his assists numbers but the Mavs offense is not built that way.

[Mr B]

Watch on YouTube

The NBA really came through with this one. It's excellent.

...

Holy ****. What a monster.

Nah. Luka has some flashes of that, but no way. That would be amazing.

Yes my dude - every time you see somebody say "Larry Bird was not athletic" on these forums you can chalk it up as somebody that doesn't know what the **** they're talking about.

Bird was also a beast on defense and would beat your ass if you challenged him.

[Mr B]

I know he doesn't get much talk on here. But Bagley is damn good on the offensive end and you can tell that he isn't even scratching the surface yet offensively. Really the only question about him is can he become solid defensively. He's looked like a rookie defensively, but I don't think he's looked nearly as bad as many thought. Also his shot blocking is better than expected.

But ya offensively that dude is going to be special.

I also don’t understand why Bagley doesn’t get much hype. He’s putting up good numbers and the Kings are right there with Dallas in the standings, so he’s contributing to a winning team.

I know some people here feel the need to put other players down in order to prop up their favorite player but I personally love this draft class.

I’m a huge Mavs fan so Doncic is my guy but I really think this could be one of the best draft classes in a while. Similar to the ‘98 draft class when Dirk was drafted. I think all of the top guys (Doncic, Ayton, Bagley, JJJ, Young, both Bridges’ and Knox) have the potential to be stars. Obviously some need more work on their game than others but all have potential. The next 10-15 years in the NBA are going to be really fun to watch.

[Mr B]

Vlade wanted Bagley and being a Kings fan I can see why. Bagley makes plays that are simply jaw dropping. I have never seen a guy that size move that quick. His spin move is simply unstoppable because it happens so fast. His jump off the floor is also super quick.

Doncic is really good and my favorite for ROY but for the Kings, I’m very happy with Bagley.

The Kings didn't get anything because JJJ wasn't gonna play there (he refused to work out for them and all that), so they didn't want to take the risk of sitting at 5 and having him and Trae Young (who obviously would have been an extremely poor fit with Fox) being considered the best players available. It would have not been surprising at all if Memphis had taken Bagley over Jackson, and if Dallas represented Atlanta's only chance to trade down for Young there's a good chance they'd have drafted either Bagley or Jackson and left the other one for Memphis. Here's a pretty glowing pre-draft profile of Bagley on the Grizzlies' team site that concludes with "If the draft breaks right for Memphis, Bagley would be left as the ultimate catch on the board at No. 4." Quite revisionist to say the Kings were the only team in the top 5 interested in Bagley.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grind-city-media/mikecheck-grizzlies-draft-files-the-case-of-marvin-bagley-iii-180618

Dallas would have taken WCJ, if Luka was unavailable. But if they have offered 1st round pick to Atlanta, they would have made the same offer to the Kings. atlanta would have taken young, so even if Memphis would have taken Bagley, which is unlikely, they would have ended with JJJ or Luka. But I'm 99% sure, they would have ended with Bagley and Mavs pick.

From what has been reported the Mavs have been scouting Luka since he was 14. They would have done anything to get him, however if they were not able to Carter was the guy they wanted. Personally going in to the draft Bagley was the guy I wanted. Just like everyone else I had concerns about Luka’s athleticism. Boy was I wrong! Glad I was wrong too. Best crow I ever tasted.