Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XX: Year of the Vuc

[Blue_and_Whte]

elaborate.
What's your definition of monster? Stat padding 32 points on 42% FG ,having no success whatsoever with any roster he was part of for whole lenght of his career or just notion that he had exiting dunks?

Isn't is so damn sad that closest thing to success that hall of famer had is that moment , in 2013 when he entered a game as gray-haired old man in 20 points blowout for team that he played 0 min in regular season?

Again ,what's defined difference between him, somebody who Magic fans love ( despite having zero succes with him, but whatever ), and Carmelo Anthony, one of most hated stars of last two decades?

I see non. All i see is almost stockholm sindrom bias toward player that for whole lenght of his career had nothing but bunch of empty stats to show for.

Tmac was top 5 in the league for a short period. You could say Kobe and Iverson stat padded too. Their was no question for a short period he was the better of VC vs Tmac and most thought he was better than Kobe at the time.

They all did.
2000s were era of bad basketball decisions led by ISO heavy stat padders.
That's why systems like Spurs and Pistons could overcome and beat more talented teams .

I don't hate T mac, i just think fans overhype and overrate him. In most years he was Demar Derozan'ing in nba. Around league top in scoring and shot taken, when playoffs roll his efficiency always went down and he was never able to carry teams anywhere.

Whole Durant comp is laughable to me . Durant is simply more complete player. Far superior defender and rebounder,overall more impacful and better player to have on a team.

Just look at 2009-10. Durant is 22 years old at that point. harden is rookie , Westbrook in second year, just 16 ppg player. Jeff Green is their second option and Durant takes them to 50 wins. In playoffs he goes against prime Kobe and already looks like equal,hell even better in some games. Loses 4-2 ( game 6 by 1 point ) but whole world figured they are legit. Lakers win title.
Next year they are already in conference finals, losing to another eventual winner , Dallas.
Third year of playoffs and he is 30 ppg scorer in nba finals. Loses to a team that is probably best team East had since Jordan Bulls to a date.

( few months later OKC refuses to sign Harden about $2-3 M more and they trade him for Jeremy Lamb in one of most idiotic decisions in nba history ).

Then why bring up stat padding? id say a subject you know nothing about is TMac if youre comparing him Derozan.

And I'll say this much.... the Tmac led Magic were far more fun to watch than this Vuc led Magic team. At least Tmac made the playoffs with the Magic. Vuc hasn't done that.

C’mon man that’s not even comparable.


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Of course not....were talking about a HOF who was comparable to Kobe. I swear.... I can't even tell if this is real life.

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[Xatticus]

Have to question if you ever played any sport at a high level, you realized how much he's practicing? Do you realize how big of an adjustment it is going from college to the NBA? He is still playing minutes, people here act like if a rookie isn't getting 30 minutes a night we aren't playing them enough, the kid is clearly raw and his body clearly can't handle a lot of the bigs he's already come up against. Give him time. He isn't just sitting at home watching games stop being an idiot.

I sense I touched a nerve that you can't handle discussing maturely.

I'm just sick of all the people on this board who act like we aren't playing our rookies, hezonja wasn't ready and isn't a good basketball player, isaac is the glass man and keeps getting injured, bamba is a stick who can't defend any one right now and is getting the minutes he deserves. People think this is 2k. You can't just throw a stick figure in 30 minutes a night and call it player development. Real world doesn't work that way. When we've had players who could play their role as a rookie we've played them, when we've had projects who need to be bought on slowly that's the approach we've taken.

I couldn't disagree with this position more.

Nobody is drafted for what they are, but rather for what they might become. The quality of the minutes a player provides in their first couple years is far less important than it is that they demonstrate improvement towards the player you projected they can become.

When you are selecting in the top half of the lottery, you simply do not have the requisite excuses to limit the minutes of your most prized assets. It was absolutely asinine to sign players like Green and Simmons to come in and eat the minutes that otherwise would've gone to Hezonja; particularly when the end results were 29 and 25 win seasons.

At present, we just don't have much young talent, so there are plenty of minutes that are going to have to be filled out by our collection of journeymen. If I thought for a moment that anyone on this roster was hindering the playing time and development of Isaac, Gordon, or Bamba, I'd be up in arms right now. Everyone else on this roster is flotsam in the larger scheme.

It's absurd to argue that there is some requisite standard of competence that might be undermined by committing minutes to lottery picks when the standard we have put forth over the last five years has been so consistently poor. If the veterans on this roster could handle the minutes we have been giving them, we wouldn't be picking in the top half of the lottery every year.

[VFX]

I sense I touched a nerve that you can't handle discussing maturely.

I'm just sick of all the people on this board who act like we aren't playing our rookies, hezonja wasn't ready and isn't a good basketball player, isaac is the glass man and keeps getting injured, bamba is a stick who can't defend any one right now and is getting the minutes he deserves. People think this is 2k. You can't just throw a stick figure in 30 minutes a night and call it player development. Real world doesn't work that way. When we've had players who could play their role as a rookie we've played them, when we've had projects who need to be bought on slowly that's the approach we've taken.

It's absurd to argue that there is some requisite standard of competence that might be undermined by committing minutes to lottery picks when the standard we have put forth over the last five years has been so consistently poor. If the veterans on this roster could handle the minutes we have been giving them, we wouldn't be picking in the top half of the lottery every year.

[pepe1991]

Lmao... Oh boy.

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Tmac was mosnter

elaborate.
What's your definition of monster? Stat padding 32 points on 42% FG ,having no success whatsoever with any roster he was part of for whole lenght of his career or just notion that he had exiting dunks?

Isn't is so damn sad that closest thing to success that hall of famer had is that moment , in 2013 when he entered a game as gray-haired old man in 20 points blowout for team that he played 0 min in regular season?

Again ,what's defined difference between him, somebody who Magic fans love ( despite having zero succes with him, but whatever ), and Carmelo Anthony, one of most hated stars of last two decades?

I see non. All i see is almost stockholm sindrom bias toward player that for whole lenght of his career had nothing but bunch of empty stats to show for.

A guy that carries a team consisting of some of the worst (skill wise) teammates in NBA history isnt stat padding.

The best players he played with in Orlando were Juwan Howard, Drew Gooden, and Gordon Gireck. Are you **** kidding me? Thats called carrying a bunch of bums on your back until that **** breaks which it literally did. Not stat padding. It doesnt surprise me if you didnt actually watch prime tract mcgrady play.

EDIT: My bad he played with 37 year old Horace Grant, and 400 pound shawn Kemp. Oh and how about that Derrick Dial and Robert Archibald. Thats some talent.






Stat padding....are you effing....kidding me?
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Ming, Batier, Alston (old Mutombo off bench) still his ceiling was first round.

Raptors and Rockets both passed first round as soon as he was off roster.
Facts simply don't add up in his favor.

[OrlChamps2030]

elaborate.
What's your definition of monster? Stat padding 32 points on 42% FG ,having no success whatsoever with any roster he was part of for whole lenght of his career or just notion that he had exiting dunks?

Isn't is so damn sad that closest thing to success that hall of famer had is that moment , in 2013 when he entered a game as gray-haired old man in 20 points blowout for team that he played 0 min in regular season?

Again ,what's defined difference between him, somebody who Magic fans love ( despite having zero succes with him, but whatever ), and Carmelo Anthony, one of most hated stars of last two decades?

I see non. All i see is almost stockholm sindrom bias toward player that for whole lenght of his career had nothing but bunch of empty stats to show for.

A guy that carries a team consisting of some of the worst (skill wise) teammates in NBA history isnt stat padding.

The best players he played with in Orlando were Juwan Howard, Drew Gooden, and Gordon Gireck. Are you **** kidding me? Thats called carrying a bunch of bums on your back until that **** breaks which it literally did. Not stat padding. It doesnt surprise me if you didnt actually watch prime tract mcgrady play.

EDIT: My bad he played with 37 year old Horace Grant, and 400 pound shawn Kemp. Oh and how about that Derrick Dial and Robert Archibald. Thats some talent.






Stat padding....are you effing....kidding me?
Sent from my VS501 using RealGM mobile app

Ming, Batier, Alston (old Mutombo off bench) still his ceiling was first round.

Raptors and Rockets both passed first round as soon as he was off roster.
Facts simply don't add up in his favor.

Nostalgia clouds judgement

A lot of my co workers think Allen Iverson was better than D Wade

[Skin]

I sense I touched a nerve that you can't handle discussing maturely.

I'm just sick of all the people on this board who act like we aren't playing our rookies, hezonja wasn't ready and isn't a good basketball player, isaac is the glass man and keeps getting injured, bamba is a stick who can't defend any one right now and is getting the minutes he deserves. People think this is 2k. You can't just throw a stick figure in 30 minutes a night and call it player development. Real world doesn't work that way. When we've had players who could play their role as a rookie we've played them, when we've had projects who need to be bought on slowly that's the approach we've taken.

I couldn't disagree with this position more.

Nobody is drafted for what they are, but rather for what they might become. The quality of the minutes a player provides in their first couple years is far less important than it is that they demonstrate improvement towards the player you projected they can become.

When you are selecting in the top half of the lottery, you simply do not have the requisite excuses to limit the minutes of your most prized assets. It was absolutely asinine to sign players like Green and Simmons to come in and eat the minutes that otherwise would've gone to Hezonja; particularly when the end results were 29 and 25 win seasons.

At present, we just don't have much young talent, so there are plenty of minutes that are going to have to be filled out by our collection of journeymen. If I thought for a moment that anyone on this roster was hindering the playing time and development of Isaac, Gordon, or Bamba, I'd be up in arms right now. Everyone else on this roster is flotsam in the larger scheme.

It's absurd to argue that there is some requisite standard of competence that might be undermined by committing minutes to lottery picks when the standard we have put forth over the last five years has been so consistently poor. If the veterans on this roster could handle the minutes we have been giving them, we wouldn't be picking in the top half of the lottery every year.

[OrlChamps2030]

I sense I touched a nerve that you can't handle discussing maturely.

I'm just sick of all the people on this board who act like we aren't playing our rookies, hezonja wasn't ready and isn't a good basketball player, isaac is the glass man and keeps getting injured, bamba is a stick who can't defend any one right now and is getting the minutes he deserves. People think this is 2k. You can't just throw a stick figure in 30 minutes a night and call it player development. Real world doesn't work that way. When we've had players who could play their role as a rookie we've played them, when we've had projects who need to be bought on slowly that's the approach we've taken.

I couldn't disagree with this position more.

Nobody is drafted for what they are, but rather for what they might become. The quality of the minutes a player provides in their first couple years is far less important than it is that they demonstrate improvement towards the player you projected they can become.

When you are selecting in the top half of the lottery, you simply do not have the requisite excuses to limit the minutes of your most prized assets. It was absolutely asinine to sign players like Green and Simmons to come in and eat the minutes that otherwise would've gone to Hezonja; particularly when the end results were 29 and 25 win seasons.

At present, we just don't have much young talent, so there are plenty of minutes that are going to have to be filled out by our collection of journeymen. If I thought for a moment that anyone on this roster was hindering the playing time and development of Isaac, Gordon, or Bamba, I'd be up in arms right now. Everyone else on this roster is flotsam in the larger scheme.

It's absurd to argue that there is some requisite standard of competence that might be undermined by committing minutes to lottery picks when the standard we have put forth over the last five years has been so consistently poor. If the veterans on this roster could handle the minutes we have been giving them, we wouldn't be picking in the top half of the lottery every year.

Mods need to sticky this post

[pepe1991]

Xatticus has always been, in my humble opinion best poster here. Should write articles or something.

[PrimeThyme]

[Furinkazan]

[NEM]

Prime Mac > Prime KD. If you think otherwise, you weren’t around, or were too young to remember prime T-Mac. Give Orlando T-Mac half the talent that Durant has had throughout his ENTIRE NBA career, and watch him win rings. T-Mac in today’s pace and space NBA averages 35-40 EASILY.

[pepe1991]

Prime Mac > Prime KD. If you think otherwise, you weren’t around, or were too young to remember prime T-Mac. Give Orlando T-Mac half the talent that Durant has had throughout his ENTIRE NBA career, and watch him win rings. T-Mac in today’s pace and space NBA averages 35-40 EASILY.

What was "prime Mac" ?

Guy declinded at age of 25. From that point he had Westbrook like efficiency on team that had Westbrook like results.

With Mac it's complete lack of objectivity here, guy who puts up 30 points on 24 shots shooting 40-30-70 on average defense.

I assume most of it is just nostalgia from past days that are tied with memories of subjective "success" ( that really wasn't success by any mean) of favorite team.

I get it, i was 11-12 years old when Iverson was Jesus of NBA, we, as kids thought he is better than Jordan. We watched AND1 mixtape and thought Hot Sauce would be allstar in nba. Different times.
But if we are being objective, T mac, Iverson ;Francis, Marbury, Latrell Sprewell, Stack, Jermaine O'neal , Davis, Kanyon Martin were all same level of "stars" that Derozan , Melo , Cousins are today. Zero success, fat box score ,fat contracts guys.
In every generation you can make clear cut between succesful winners and players that have almost identical, if not better box score stats than A stars ,yet never won ***t. Look at Jordan era, from 1989-1990, Dale Ellis and Tom Chambers averaged 26 ppg during late 80s ,yet nobody views them as equal to Jordan or Barkley.
I used Barkley on purpose, he never won ring, but was impact player that made difference on every roster.

[NEM]

Prime Mac > Prime KD. If you think otherwise, you weren’t around, or were too young to remember prime T-Mac. Give Orlando T-Mac half the talent that Durant has had throughout his ENTIRE NBA career, and watch him win rings. T-Mac in today’s pace and space NBA averages 35-40 EASILY.

What was "prime Mac" ?

Guy declinded at age of 25. From that point he had Westbrook like efficiency on team that had Westbrook like results.

Unfortunately due to injuries, prime T-Mac was ages 21-24. At that time he averaged 28/8/5 on 45/37/77. Similar numbers to what Durant did during the same age seasons (Durant better FT shooter, T-Mac better distributor). The main difference is in the team structure. Durant had Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, and Jeff Green, all of who would EASILY be the second best player on those T-Mac Magic teams. Grant Hill’s contract hamstrung us (as well as poor drafting by Doc/Gabe). Look at the rosters that T-Mac singlehandedly carried into the playoffs. He took D league talent to the playoffs for 3 years. It’s no wonder his broke down when he did.

[pepe1991]

Prime Mac > Prime KD. If you think otherwise, you weren’t around, or were too young to remember prime T-Mac. Give Orlando T-Mac half the talent that Durant has had throughout his ENTIRE NBA career, and watch him win rings. T-Mac in today’s pace and space NBA averages 35-40 EASILY.

What was "prime Mac" ?

Guy declinded at age of 25. From that point he had Westbrook like efficiency on team that had Westbrook like results.

Unfortunately due to injuries, prime T-Mac was ages 21-24. At that time he averaged 28/8/5 on 45/37/77. Similar numbers to what Durant did during the same age seasons (Durant better FT shooter, T-Mac better distributor). The main difference is in the team structure. Durant had Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, and Jeff Green, all of who would EASILY be the second best player on those T-Mac Magic teams. Grant Hill’s contract hamstrung us (as well as poor drafting by Doc/Gabe). Look at the rosters that T-Mac singlehandedly carried into the playoffs. He took D league talent to the playoffs for 3 years. It’s no wonder his broke down when he did.

But level of competition was also different. Nobody had star teams. Him playing with Ming was closest thing to Kobe- Shaq.

You look at succesful teams from that era from East: 2002 - Celtics had Pierce and Walker, with Walker being human brick machine.
Nets playing finals with Kidd and Martin.

Iverson in 2003 muscled his way out of first round with Coleman, being 36 years old, as second best player.
Hell Iverson in 2001 powerd his way to nba finals with such a disaster of a roster.


On west things were similar. He had superstar next to him. As i said, he had the best C in nba , he was allegedly the best SF in nba, so why he couldn't beat Dallas with Dirk as only allstar?
2007 him, Ming , Alston and Batier vs D. Will, Carlos Boozer, Okur and Kiriljenko. That's type of matchup you always go with " who has better star" and yet ,another L in first round.

I agree injuries ruined him, but there are players from that era that are somewhat overlooked now as somehow worst players ( Iverson, Baron Davis in particular) who actually were able to carry teams more than Mac ever did. Especially Iverson who new fans now look like he is some old scrub.

[NEM]

What was "prime Mac" ?

Guy declinded at age of 25. From that point he had Westbrook like efficiency on team that had Westbrook like results.

Unfortunately due to injuries, prime T-Mac was ages 21-24. At that time he averaged 28/8/5 on 45/37/77. Similar numbers to what Durant did during the same age seasons (Durant better FT shooter, T-Mac better distributor). The main difference is in the team structure. Durant had Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, and Jeff Green, all of who would EASILY be the second best player on those T-Mac Magic teams. Grant Hill’s contract hamstrung us (as well as poor drafting by Doc/Gabe). Look at the rosters that T-Mac singlehandedly carried into the playoffs. He took D league talent to the playoffs for 3 years. It’s no wonder his broke down when he did.

But level of competition was also different. Nobody had star teams. Him playing with Ming was closest thing to Kobe- Shaq.

You look at succesful teams from that era from East: 2002 - Celtics had Pierce and Walker, with Walker being human brick machine.
Nets playing finals with Kidd and Martin.

Iverson in 2003 muscled his way out of first round with Coleman, being 36 years old, as second best player.
Hell Iverson in 2001 powerd his way to nba finals with such a disaster of a roster.


On west things were similar. He had superstar next to him. As i said, he had the best C in nba , he was allegedly the best SF in nba, so why he couldn't beat Dallas with Dirk as only allstar?
2007 him, Ming , Alston and Batier vs D. Will, Carlos Boozer, Okur and Kiriljenko. That's type of matchup you always go with " who has better star" and yet ,another L in first round.

I agree injuries ruined him, but there are players from that era that are somewhat overlooked now as somehow worst players ( Iverson, Baron Davis in particular) who actually were able to carry teams more than Mac ever did. Especially Iverson who new fans now look like he is some old scrub.

Even IF that’s the case (fewer stars), those supporting casts were STILL miles better than what he had. Iverson was surrounded by players who fit his style of play perfectly (all good to great defenders that didn’t require the ball on offense) such as mckie mckey snow ratliff mutombo snow hill bell. Celtics had pierce, but they also had walker, Anderson, battie, McCarty. Again, another better supporting cast. Pistons were a complete team. Pacers had JO and Reggie, surrounded by a strong supporting cast. Also, early 2000’s was arguably the slowest the game has ever been so stats will be deflated when compared to other eras, especially today, so t-macs 28/7/5 >> KD’s 28/8/3.

Finally, yes t-Mac never got out of the first round, however, that does nothing in a game of 1 on 1 to 11. That’s what’s in question here. I’m taking t-Mac 10/10. His handle was better, when he wanted to, he was a top defender, however due to lack of help he never played that end even close to 100%. They both had/have unlimited range, both finish with the best of them. While Durant is a little taller, both are long, and t-Mac is a lot more athletic. T-Mac 11-7.

[drsd]

A lot of my co workers think Allen Iverson was better than D Wade

Well, because he was:
LINK: Player Comparison: Allen Iverson vs. Dwyane Wade

Iverson had more total points scored in nearly 100 less games played. He was a better assist man, and at the PG slot, was an elite defensive rebounder. As well, Iverson was a better defender than Wade, in my opinion.

In the playoffs, Iverson was hand-down a better player than Wade.

The only reason to consider Wade better than Iverson is the nearly 100 more playoff games played (and the titles). But that is more of a reflection of Iverson's horrible supporting cast in most of his seasons' played.


..

[pepe1991]

Part of reason why Mac and Answer had no help is fact that they were eating 1/3 of salary cap of their teams.

But pss, nobody wants to hear reality.

Also both of them did nothing with better rosters once they got them.

Iverson with Melo, Camby, Nene, Kleiza, JR lost in first round.
T mac with Battier, Ming , Rafer Alston lost in first round.

IN 2007 nba salary was $53M , he was making $19M.

Similar 1/3 of cap on Mac math was in play when he played for Magic. Magic couldn't do anything with him and Hill clogging 50% of salary. Salary cap disparity is best shown in fact that third highest payed player made three times less than them.

about 1 on 1 game

Watch on YouTube

Durant might be most unguardable 1 on 1 player ever ( in general this is great video to see how amazing all those players are )

[Nemesis21]

I sense I touched a nerve that you can't handle discussing maturely.

I'm just sick of all the people on this board who act like we aren't playing our rookies, hezonja wasn't ready and isn't a good basketball player, isaac is the glass man and keeps getting injured, bamba is a stick who can't defend any one right now and is getting the minutes he deserves. People think this is 2k. You can't just throw a stick figure in 30 minutes a night and call it player development. Real world doesn't work that way. When we've had players who could play their role as a rookie we've played them, when we've had projects who need to be bought on slowly that's the approach we've taken.

I couldn't disagree with this position more.

Nobody is drafted for what they are, but rather for what they might become. The quality of the minutes a player provides in their first couple years is far less important than it is that they demonstrate improvement towards the player you projected they can become.

When you are selecting in the top half of the lottery, you simply do not have the requisite excuses to limit the minutes of your most prized assets. It was absolutely asinine to sign players like Green and Simmons to come in and eat the minutes that otherwise would've gone to Hezonja; particularly when the end results were 29 and 25 win seasons.

At present, we just don't have much young talent, so there are plenty of minutes that are going to have to be filled out by our collection of journeymen. If I thought for a moment that anyone on this roster was hindering the playing time and development of Isaac, Gordon, or Bamba, I'd be up in arms right now. Everyone else on this roster is flotsam in the larger scheme.

It's absurd to argue that there is some requisite standard of competence that might be undermined by committing minutes to lottery picks when the standard we have put forth over the last five years has been so consistently poor. If the veterans on this roster could handle the minutes we have been giving them, we wouldn't be picking in the top half of the lottery every year.

[Nemesis21]

Prime T-Mac murders Prime KD. Don't @ me

[Ducklett]

Prime T-Mac murders Prime KD. Don't @ me

Who do I need to @ to get the Magic a relevant roster?