#4 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[SkyHookFTW]

Bobby Jones at #3 is very suspect, though not as suspect as Dray at 3. I might have lost interest in the project right there which would be a shame because C should be the most interesting (though less interesting with Duncan at PF). Still, a PF with 5.4rpg in the NBA just made #3 all time defense. Moving on...

My vote is staying Dennis Rodman. I did briefly consider Hayes who you could also argue is a more natural C despite him playing a lot of PF next to other big men like Unseld. Other than that, the next batch of guys like Mchale and HoGrant are a notch below IMO.

Comment deleted. Out of character for me.

[SkyHookFTW]

Hayes, McHale, and Rodman are all fine choices but I'm tipping my vote to Rodman. I value defensive rebounding and that is what makes me, all things considered, place him in the #4 position. The three players voted in above him have more well-rounded games, and now it is time to look for those players who have a standout skill or two despite having a hole or two in their court performance. Rodman was a tough, hard nosed player with very good court vision who reminds me a lot of Barkley in one way: he would do whatever it took to get boards, and that skill can lead to a lot of transition points. He could face up man to man and his help defense was very good, though as he got older he lost some of that lateral speed. It took a strong player to overwhelm him at the point of attack. He wasn't the quickest guy working man to man though, so you couldn't expect him to go outside and take on a speedster like A.I., for example...but then again, if a player like A.I. got that first step no one could keep up with him anyway. Sometimes his temper did get the better of him, if that's a knock. Loved his on court desire and demeanor.

Vote: Rodman

[mdonnelly1989]

How did deng get voted 9th and above Kawhi that’s insane.

I know why, longevity, give Kawhi about 3 more years and he will likely jump 5 of those guys.

[Gibson22]

Baiting, trolling.

Anyway you can join if you want

[Gibson22]

I'm voting for dennis rodman, because in my opinion he's the best candidate basically in every aspect other than rim protection. Versatility, man to man defense, switchability, rebounding, mind games, athelticism, what he accomplished with his defense etc.

[Gibson22]

How did deng get voted 9th and above Kawhi that’s insane.

I know why, longevity, give Kawhi about 3 more years and he will likely jump 5 of those guys.

For sure in my opinion

[trex_8063]

Last thread I was deciding between Jones and Hayes, with longevity being a major factor for Hayes. However, recent discussion has me questioning whether I've been TOO longevity-oriented in my thinking (I did still side with Jones, fwiw).

Additionally, iggymcfrack might have a valid point (from the last thread):

It’s kinda unfair when you’re ranking PFs because you almost have to play some minutes at the 5 to really have game-changing impact. KG had his 3 best defensive seasons in his 30s because he was playing center and that allowed him to have way more impact than he could as a true 4. Same for Duncan, he was always playing at least a large share of his minutes at center which is what allowed him to impact the game in a way that a pure 4 like Jones couldn’t. And Draymond had an unprecedented postseason impact while playing 31% of his postseason minutes at the 5 from 14/15 through 16/17. But if we’re looking at how they impacted the game, I just think they did a lot more in those years than Rodman or Jones was capable of.

The C position is the most defensively dominant position; the "bigs" in general often have greater capacity to have defensive impact because there are typically more instances in which they can effect [or end] the possession. As such, it does seem like the PF/C's who [somewhat arbitrarily] got lumped in with the PF's (Duncan, Hayes, etc) maybe have an "unfair" advantage over SF/PF's (Rodman, DeBusschere, etc) who also [somewhat arbitrarily] got lumped in with the PF's.

These two considerations have me giving greater consideration to Dennis Rodman for this spot (who I was leaning toward for right after Hayes). idk, I'll have to think about it, and will get my vote in before the deadline.

[Dupp]

How did deng get voted 9th and above Kawhi that’s insane.

I know why, longevity, give Kawhi about 3 more years and he will likely jump 5 of those guys.

Guess I just see deng as extremely overrated.

[mdonnelly1989]

How did deng get voted 9th and above Kawhi that’s insane.

I know why, longevity, give Kawhi about 3 more years and he will likely jump 5 of those guys.

Guess I just see deng as extremely overrated.

Deng was certain a shut down type of Small Forward, I watched him as a Bulls fan give Lebron a great run for his money every time.

However, I feel you're right he's still probably a full tier below Kawhi in his prime defensively.

I personally felt like Kawhi was going to end in the top 5 already, however it has to be because of longevity, but I think he could comfortably be top 4 by careers end if he keeps his defense at bay 5 more years

[Pipp33]

Vote Rodman

[Gibson22]

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[Johnny Firpo]

Rodman.

[KnickFan33]

Rodman

[trex_8063]

idk, I've thought about it, but I'm still going with Elvin Hayes for my pick here.

Remarkable turnaround in the Rockets defense as soon as he arrived (and abrupt decline as soon as he left), another abrupt improvement in the Bullet's DRtg as soon as he arrived, too. Was the only rim protector on some elite defenses in Washington (without notable perimeter stoppers), and outstanding consistency and longevity; obv ranks fantastic in the aggregate DVOR composites I'd presented last thread. And a prime WOWYR (a prime listed as 934 games) of +3.2: pretty darn respectable considering Hayes was likely never better than a slim positive on offense. Everything seems to be pointing to a much higher impact defensive anchor than he's typically been given credit for.

Rodman is a close HM for me.

[penbeast0]

idk, I've thought about it, but I'm still going with Elvin Hayes for my pick here.

Remarkable turnaround in the Rockets defense as soon as he arrived, the only rim protector on some elite defenses in Washington (without notable perimeter stoppers), and outstanding consistency and longevity; obv ranks fantastic in the aggregate DVOR composites I'd presented last thread. And a prime WOWYR (a prime listed as 934 games) of +3.2: pretty darn respectable considering Hayes was likely never better than a slim positive on offense.

Rodman is a close HM for me.

To disagree with details, though not necessarily with your conclusion, in Washington both Dandridge and Chenier were known as excellent perimeter defenders and Mike Riordan had a very good defensive rep too.

[trex_8063]

idk, I've thought about it, but I'm still going with Elvin Hayes for my pick here.

Remarkable turnaround in the Rockets defense as soon as he arrived, the only rim protector on some elite defenses in Washington (without notable perimeter stoppers), and outstanding consistency and longevity; obv ranks fantastic in the aggregate DVOR composites I'd presented last thread. And a prime WOWYR (a prime listed as 934 games) of +3.2: pretty darn respectable considering Hayes was likely never better than a slim positive on offense.

Rodman is a close HM for me.

To disagree with details, though not necessarily with your conclusion, in Washington both Dandridge and Chenier were known as excellent perimeter defenders and Mike Riordan had a very good defensive rep too.

I knew Riordan had a decent reputation, did not know that about Chenier (he looked passable in the few games I watched). I didn't forget Dandridge when I made the statement though. He didn't arrive in Washington until '78; the Bullets had all their best (all their "elite") defensive years from '73-'76, before his arrival.

[trex_8063]

Calling this one for Rodman. Don't have time to post the full vote-count and names of posters, but I'm pretty sure he's up by at lesat 2-3 on anyone else.