Deandre Ayton news and highlights

[Archx]

Have a feeling Ayton will be scary good next year if Suns can get Zion. It would open a lot of space for Ayton to operate in. And the passion he would bring to this team is also something that is desperately needed. I'm just afraid when top rookies see this dysfunctional FO and say that they would rather stay away.

I'm not sure about the spacing (Zion still hasn't got the 3PT shot yet) but I have a good feeling that Zion could make a better entry pass to Ayton in the post than any player on this team right now. A 6'6 280lb big man with a better entry pass than any of our "PGs"

Yeah that is true, but i was thinking more like if he played similar to a PG. He is incredibly strong and quick, also has nice dribbles. If he can penetrate to the rim, teams will just have to double him. I mean you can't stop him 1v1. Which means Ayton can just operate around like Bosh did or maybe AD and have those free mid range shots for example. I'm afraid that a guy like Barret, won't fit well with the Suns, he is too selfish. Maybe Cam would be good, but then there are TJ + Bridges...
Also the reason why i like Zion is because he reminds me of Barkley, he is still one of my favorite players ever, so would be sick to see him on the Suns roster

[lilfishi22]

Been wondering about this...knew his blocks were up but wondering if his DFG% within 6 feet has improved.

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You need to look at the DFG differential to spot any improvements since every opponent has a different season average.

Where do you find all these numbers? Like the ones you posted earlier. Do you have a link?

What's interesting is of the bigs (over 6'10) who have played more than 20 NBA games this season, Holmes rank #1 (-18 Diff%)

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*20&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%206-10

Obviously it's over a smaller sample size of just 3.3 attempts per game at the rim but I think it's clear how good he is at just changing shots at the rim.

Ayton is still giving up too much at the rim (65.4%) but it was much better than where he was earlier in the season when he was giving up like +70% IIRC. Since the start of Dec, he's at around 63.3%. Still a poor rim protector but there's improvement

[lilfishi22]

Have a feeling Ayton will be scary good next year if Suns can get Zion. It would open a lot of space for Ayton to operate in. And the passion he would bring to this team is also something that is desperately needed. I'm just afraid when top rookies see this dysfunctional FO and say that they would rather stay away.

I'm not sure about the spacing (Zion still hasn't got the 3PT shot yet) but I have a good feeling that Zion could make a better entry pass to Ayton in the post than any player on this team right now. A 6'6 280lb big man with a better entry pass than any of our "PGs"

Yeah that is true, but i was thinking more like if he played similar to a PG. He is incredibly strong and quick, also has nice dribbles. If he can penetrate to the rim, teams will just have to double him. I mean you can't stop him 1v1. Which means Ayton can just operate around like Bosh did or maybe AD and have those free mid range shots for example. I'm afraid that a guy like Barret, won't fit well with the Suns, he is too selfish. Maybe Cam would be good, but then there are TJ + Bridges...
Also the reason why i like Zion is because he reminds me of Barkley, he is still one of my favorite players ever, so would be sick to see him on the Suns roster

I love watching Zion but I don't think his handles is NBA level yet. It's good for a 6'6 big man but I'm not sure if he has NBA level ISO skills yet. I think his best attribute aside from his legendary athleticism is his BBIQ. The guy just makes smart plays. I think he'll figure it out eventually but where he will fit with Ayton is if he can improve on his handles enough to run a PnR with him. Good Lordy Lord

I honestly can't imagine a Zion/Ayton PnR

This is going into more of the 2019 draft talk so I won't talk too much about Cam or Barret here

[GoodBehavior]

You need to look at the DFG differential to spot any improvements since every opponent has a different season average.

Where do you find all these numbers? Like the ones you posted earlier. Do you have a link?

What's interesting is of the bigs (over 6'10) who have played more than 20 NBA games this season, Holmes rank #1 (-18 Diff%)

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*20&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%206-10

Obviously it's over a smaller sample size of just 3.3 attempts per game at the rim but I think it's clear how good he is at just changing shots at the rim.

Ayton is still giving up too much at the rim (65.4%) but it was much better than where he was earlier in the season when he was giving up like +70% IIRC. Since the start of Dec, he's at around 63.3%. Still a poor rim protector but there's improvement

I think these stats need some context.

Holmes is currently a better rim protector than Ayton. That's not up for debate, IMHO. But Holmes usually faces the second unit centers and the second unit offenses. In stretches where he had to faced opposing team #1 centers, Holmes struggled more often than not. Against second unit offenses/centers (limited sample), Ayton has looked much better than against opposing starting lineup. Holmes is better for sure but the gap isn't as wide as the number suggest.

A huge issue regarding Ayton's rim protection is related to strength. Against stronger centers he's not strong enough to defend the post/rim and his DFG against them looks to be extraordinarily high. First matchup against Bogan, DAJ was 5/5 last night and also did well in their first game, Steve Adams missed like a one shot against Ayton on good volume in their two games, Jokic obviously, Nurkic when he was posting up, same with Vuvecic, etc. It will take Ayton some time before his strength matches or exceeds these bigger centers, I think his DFG % will dropped sharply when that occur.

Lastly, the issue with small sample size is you can reach markedly different conclusion pretty quickly. His December stats (63.3%, which includes only 6 games) suggest he's still a poor rim protector. His last ten games (excluding DAL, i.e.TheTimelinePodcast stats of 56%) suggest elite rim protection. Based solely on the eye test, i think it's somewhere in between: average to above average rim protection.

I know its blasphemy on this forum to suggest Ayton is going to be an elite defender, but I think he's going to be a top ten defensive center in this league. His PNR defense looks fantastic recently; his rim protection has been average/above average; and he's one of the few centers than can switch on guard (Embiid and Gobert struggled with this during the playoff) which is an underrated aspect for the 5 position in this league. Color me optimistic.

[bwgood77]

Where do you find all these numbers? Like the ones you posted earlier. Do you have a link?

What's interesting is of the bigs (over 6'10) who have played more than 20 NBA games this season, Holmes rank #1 (-18 Diff%)

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*20&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%206-10

Obviously it's over a smaller sample size of just 3.3 attempts per game at the rim but I think it's clear how good he is at just changing shots at the rim.

Ayton is still giving up too much at the rim (65.4%) but it was much better than where he was earlier in the season when he was giving up like +70% IIRC. Since the start of Dec, he's at around 63.3%. Still a poor rim protector but there's improvement

I think these stats need some context.

Holmes is currently a better rim protector than Ayton. That's not up for debate, IMHO. But Holmes usually faces the second unit centers and the second unit offenses. In stretches where he had to faced opposing team #1 centers, Holmes struggled more often than not. Against second unit offenses/centers (limited sample), Ayton has looked much better than against opposing starting lineup. Holmes is better for sure but the gap isn't as wide as the number suggest.

A huge issue regarding Ayton's rim protection is related to strength. Against stronger centers he's not strong enough to defend the post/rim and his DFG against them looks to be extraordinarily high. First matchup against Bogan, DAJ was 5/5 last night and also did well in their first game, Steve Adams missed like a one shot against Ayton on good volume in their two games, Jokic obviously, Nurkic when he was posting up, same with Vuvecic, etc. It will take Ayton some time before his strength matches or exceeds these bigger centers, I think his DFG % will dropped sharply when that occur.

Lastly, the issue with small sample size is you can reach markedly different conclusion pretty quickly. His December stats (63.3%, which includes only 6 games) suggest he's still a poor rim protector. His last ten games (excluding DAL, i.e.TheTimelinePodcast stats of 56%) suggest elite rim protection. Based solely on the eye test, i think it's somewhere in between: average to above average rim protection.

I know its blasphemy on this forum to suggest Ayton is going to be an elite defender, but I think he's going to be a top ten defensive center in this league. His PNR defense looks fantastic recently; his rim protection has been average/above average; and he's one of the few centers than can switch on guard (Embiid and Gobert struggled with this during the playoff) which is an underrated aspect for the 5 position in this league. Color me optimistic.

Not strong enough? Do you feel Jaren Jackson is stronger?

[WeekapaugGroove]

What's interesting is of the bigs (over 6'10) who have played more than 20 NBA games this season, Holmes rank #1 (-18 Diff%)

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*20&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%206-10

Obviously it's over a smaller sample size of just 3.3 attempts per game at the rim but I think it's clear how good he is at just changing shots at the rim.

Ayton is still giving up too much at the rim (65.4%) but it was much better than where he was earlier in the season when he was giving up like +70% IIRC. Since the start of Dec, he's at around 63.3%. Still a poor rim protector but there's improvement

I think these stats need some context.

Holmes is currently a better rim protector than Ayton. That's not up for debate, IMHO. But Holmes usually faces the second unit centers and the second unit offenses. In stretches where he had to faced opposing team #1 centers, Holmes struggled more often than not. Against second unit offenses/centers (limited sample), Ayton has looked much better than against opposing starting lineup. Holmes is better for sure but the gap isn't as wide as the number suggest.

A huge issue regarding Ayton's rim protection is related to strength. Against stronger centers he's not strong enough to defend the post/rim and his DFG against them looks to be extraordinarily high. First matchup against Bogan, DAJ was 5/5 last night and also did well in their first game, Steve Adams missed like a one shot against Ayton on good volume in their two games, Jokic obviously, Nurkic when he was posting up, same with Vuvecic, etc. It will take Ayton some time before his strength matches or exceeds these bigger centers, I think his DFG % will dropped sharply when that occur.

Lastly, the issue with small sample size is you can reach markedly different conclusion pretty quickly. His December stats (63.3%, which includes only 6 games) suggest he's still a poor rim protector. His last ten games (excluding DAL, i.e.TheTimelinePodcast stats of 56%) suggest elite rim protection. Based solely on the eye test, i think it's somewhere in between: average to above average rim protection.

I know its blasphemy on this forum to suggest Ayton is going to be an elite defender, but I think he's going to be a top ten defensive center in this league. His PNR defense looks fantastic recently; his rim protection has been average/above average; and he's one of the few centers than can switch on guard (Embiid and Gobert struggled with this during the playoff) which is an underrated aspect for the 5 position in this league. Color me optimistic.

Not strong enough? Do you feel Jaren Jackson is stronger?

I'm not sure it's fair to compare most players to JJJ's freakish defensive instincts; that's what makes him special. He's also helped by having Gasol play against big C's and moving over to PF and getting to play backup bigs.

I get what he's saying on the strength thing and it certainly wouldn't hurt to get a little stronger to bang with the big guys but I actually think it's more positioning than anything else. Those big vets are getting to their spots and establishing so when they get the ball there's not a lot him or anyone can do. Some of this can be improved by learning where these guys like the ball and denying them their spot and the entry pass.

I also think in general it doesn't help that Ayton never gets to play with PF who's a weak side shot blocker. Teams never have to fear someone coming over and blocking their shot so can really go at him. This is a need they need to look at in the off season.

[bwgood77]

I think these stats need some context.

Holmes is currently a better rim protector than Ayton. That's not up for debate, IMHO. But Holmes usually faces the second unit centers and the second unit offenses. In stretches where he had to faced opposing team #1 centers, Holmes struggled more often than not. Against second unit offenses/centers (limited sample), Ayton has looked much better than against opposing starting lineup. Holmes is better for sure but the gap isn't as wide as the number suggest.

A huge issue regarding Ayton's rim protection is related to strength. Against stronger centers he's not strong enough to defend the post/rim and his DFG against them looks to be extraordinarily high. First matchup against Bogan, DAJ was 5/5 last night and also did well in their first game, Steve Adams missed like a one shot against Ayton on good volume in their two games, Jokic obviously, Nurkic when he was posting up, same with Vuvecic, etc. It will take Ayton some time before his strength matches or exceeds these bigger centers, I think his DFG % will dropped sharply when that occur.

Lastly, the issue with small sample size is you can reach markedly different conclusion pretty quickly. His December stats (63.3%, which includes only 6 games) suggest he's still a poor rim protector. His last ten games (excluding DAL, i.e.TheTimelinePodcast stats of 56%) suggest elite rim protection. Based solely on the eye test, i think it's somewhere in between: average to above average rim protection.

I know its blasphemy on this forum to suggest Ayton is going to be an elite defender, but I think he's going to be a top ten defensive center in this league. His PNR defense looks fantastic recently; his rim protection has been average/above average; and he's one of the few centers than can switch on guard (Embiid and Gobert struggled with this during the playoff) which is an underrated aspect for the 5 position in this league. Color me optimistic.

Not strong enough? Do you feel Jaren Jackson is stronger?

I'm not sure it's fair to compare most players to JJJ's freakish defensive instincts; that's what makes him special. He's also helped by having Gasol play against big C's and moving over to PF and getting to play backup bigs.

I get what he's saying on the strength thing and it certainly wouldn't hurt to get a little stronger to bang with the big guys but I actually think it's more positioning than anything else. Those big vets are getting to their spots and establishing so when they get the ball there's not a lot him or anyone can do. Some of this can be improved by learning where these guys like the ball and denying them their spot and the entry pass.

I still think he's probably stronger than most and could be faster/quicker than most with more effort. Now he doesn't have quite that think strength you build up over years if you don't stay lean but being younger and more athletic should really be an advantage in rim protection like it is earlier in some guy's careers, like Serge Ibaka for example.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Not strong enough? Do you feel Jaren Jackson is stronger?

I'm not sure it's fair to compare most players to JJJ's freakish defensive instincts; that's what makes him special. He's also helped by having Gasol play against big C's and moving over to PF and getting to play backup bigs.

I get what he's saying on the strength thing and it certainly wouldn't hurt to get a little stronger to bang with the big guys but I actually think it's more positioning than anything else. Those big vets are getting to their spots and establishing so when they get the ball there's not a lot him or anyone can do. Some of this can be improved by learning where these guys like the ball and denying them their spot and the entry pass.

I still think he's probably stronger than most and could be faster/quicker than most with more effort. Now he doesn't have quite that think strength you build up over years if you don't stay lean but being younger and more athletic should really be an advantage in rim protection like it is earlier in some guy's careers, like Serge Ibaka for example.

Yeah I generally agree that he's fine physically. I was just saying a little more strength can help his one on one D. Now a separate issue and what holds him back from being a really good rim protector is he's simply not good at all as a help defender. He can probably improve but I doubt he's ever great in this aspect because I just don't think it's something that comes naturally to him.

[GoodBehavior]

Not strong enough? Do you feel Jaren Jackson is stronger?

I'm not sure it's fair to compare most players to JJJ's freakish defensive instincts; that's what makes him special. He's also helped by having Gasol play against big C's and moving over to PF and getting to play backup bigs.

I get what he's saying on the strength thing and it certainly wouldn't hurt to get a little stronger to bang with the big guys but I actually think it's more positioning than anything else. Those big vets are getting to their spots and establishing so when they get the ball there's not a lot him or anyone can do. Some of this can be improved by learning where these guys like the ball and denying them their spot and the entry pass.

I still think he's probably stronger than most and could be faster/quicker than most with more effort. Now he doesn't have quite that think strength you build up over years if you don't stay lean but being younger and more athletic should really be an advantage in rim protection like it is earlier in some guy's careers, like Serge Ibaka for example.

JJJ is not a great example. He's a 4 at this stage, and is helped immensely by Gasol presence. His DTRG drops sharply when Gasol's not in the lineup. Jared, Wendell, and Mo have looked poorly against some of the bigger centers. I think ayton would destroy them in the post fwiw. Their respective team does a good job of protecting them against bigger centers. They have Gasol, Lopez, and Vuvecic respectively to counter. The Suns has an undersized C as a backup.

I think you're missing my point about strength. His DFG is somewhat high because he's giving up extremely easy buckets to stronger centers. Being lean and athletic will not solve it, he's flat out getting out muscled by stronger centers and needs size and strength. Steven Adams' block per game is at ayton-like level (~1 block/game) but his positioning (thanks WeekapaugGroove for the insight) and strength makes him a force around the paint. When ayton is stronger, I can see him being Steven Adams-like in that department.

As another counterpoint: Mo Bamba is a generational shot blocker but has a poor DFG. I can't imagine strength not having something to do that. I wouldn't simply discount strength as having limited to no impact on rim protection.

[bwgood77]

I'm not sure it's fair to compare most players to JJJ's freakish defensive instincts; that's what makes him special. He's also helped by having Gasol play against big C's and moving over to PF and getting to play backup bigs.

I get what he's saying on the strength thing and it certainly wouldn't hurt to get a little stronger to bang with the big guys but I actually think it's more positioning than anything else. Those big vets are getting to their spots and establishing so when they get the ball there's not a lot him or anyone can do. Some of this can be improved by learning where these guys like the ball and denying them their spot and the entry pass.

I still think he's probably stronger than most and could be faster/quicker than most with more effort. Now he doesn't have quite that think strength you build up over years if you don't stay lean but being younger and more athletic should really be an advantage in rim protection like it is earlier in some guy's careers, like Serge Ibaka for example.

JJJ is not a great example. He's a 4 at this stage, and is helped immensely by Gasol presence. His DTRG drops sharply when Gasol's not in the lineup. Jared, Wendell, and Mo have looked poorly against some of the bigger centers. I think ayton would destroy them in the post fwiw. Their respective team does a good job of protecting them against bigger centers. They have Gasol, Lopez, and Vuvecic respectively to counter. The Suns has an undersized C as a backup.

I think you're missing my point about strength. His DFG is somewhat high because he's giving up extremely easy buckets to stronger centers. Being lean and athletic will not solve it, he's flat out getting out muscled by stronger centers and needs size and strength. Steven Adams' block per game is at ayton-like level (~1 block/game) but his positioning (thanks WeekapaugGroove for the insight) and strength makes him a force around the paint. When ayton is stronger, I can see him being Steven Adams-like in that department.

As another counterpoint: Mo Bamba is a generational shot blocker but has a poor DFG. I can't imagine strength not having something to do that. I wouldn't simply discount strength as having limited to no impact on rim protection.

One thing that may not even be accounted for in his DFG% is when he watches guys get layups from 1-2 ft away. I'd like him not to only improve his 1 on 1 defense inside where JSTock has demonstrated he's one of the worst, while some other rookies like JJJ and Carter are some of the best, but also to help out when guards or forwards are getting to the rim.

[GoodBehavior]

I still think he's probably stronger than most and could be faster/quicker than most with more effort. Now he doesn't have quite that think strength you build up over years if you don't stay lean but being younger and more athletic should really be an advantage in rim protection like it is earlier in some guy's careers, like Serge Ibaka for example.

JJJ is not a great example. He's a 4 at this stage, and is helped immensely by Gasol presence. His DTRG drops sharply when Gasol's not in the lineup. Jared, Wendell, and Mo have looked poorly against some of the bigger centers. I think ayton would destroy them in the post fwiw. Their respective team does a good job of protecting them against bigger centers. They have Gasol, Lopez, and Vuvecic respectively to counter. The Suns has an undersized C as a backup.

I think you're missing my point about strength. His DFG is somewhat high because he's giving up extremely easy buckets to stronger centers. Being lean and athletic will not solve it, he's flat out getting out muscled by stronger centers and needs size and strength. Steven Adams' block per game is at ayton-like level (~1 block/game) but his positioning (thanks WeekapaugGroove for the insight) and strength makes him a force around the paint. When ayton is stronger, I can see him being Steven Adams-like in that department.

As another counterpoint: Mo Bamba is a generational shot blocker but has a poor DFG. I can't imagine strength not having something to do that. I wouldn't simply discount strength as having limited to no impact on rim protection.

One thing that may not even be accounted for in his DFG% is when he watches guys get layups from 1-2 ft away. I'd like him not to only improve his 1 on 1 defense inside where JSTock has demonstrated he's one of the worst, while some other rookies like JJJ and Carter are some of the best, but also to help out when guards or forwards are getting to the rim.

Unless I am reading JStock's stats wrong (wouldn't surprise me, I don't fully understand the format), I wouldn't draw the same conclusions.

Based on those stats, Wendell and Jaren aren't just better rim protectors than Joel, Gobert, and AD. Wendell and Jaren are MUCH better rim protectors than the elite DPOYs. I have a hard time subscribing to that. Also, Kanter is a comparable or better rim protector than AD and Gasol? And apparently Kevin Love is an elite rim protector?

FWIW, Ayton's diff DFG% in the last ten games is a respectable -3.8%, better than AD. Ayton is not better than AD defensively, so yeah... i am not going to draw conclusions just yet. As aside note, I don't think rim protection is the be all and end all of discussion for defense. Karl-Anthony Towns' rim protection based on these stats have been elite since his rookie year, and yet he's dreadful as a C.

In all honesty, all Suns fan should hope for is that Ayton shows promise in the defense department. No one should expect him to be a DPOY out of the gate. I don't think stats are perfect but his block/game this month (which happens to be higher than Jaren and Wendell), lower dFG% (per your original post) over the last ten games, and the eye test tells me there's a lot to be optimistic about.

[bwgood77]

JJJ is not a great example. He's a 4 at this stage, and is helped immensely by Gasol presence. His DTRG drops sharply when Gasol's not in the lineup. Jared, Wendell, and Mo have looked poorly against some of the bigger centers. I think ayton would destroy them in the post fwiw. Their respective team does a good job of protecting them against bigger centers. They have Gasol, Lopez, and Vuvecic respectively to counter. The Suns has an undersized C as a backup.

I think you're missing my point about strength. His DFG is somewhat high because he's giving up extremely easy buckets to stronger centers. Being lean and athletic will not solve it, he's flat out getting out muscled by stronger centers and needs size and strength. Steven Adams' block per game is at ayton-like level (~1 block/game) but his positioning (thanks WeekapaugGroove for the insight) and strength makes him a force around the paint. When ayton is stronger, I can see him being Steven Adams-like in that department.

As another counterpoint: Mo Bamba is a generational shot blocker but has a poor DFG. I can't imagine strength not having something to do that. I wouldn't simply discount strength as having limited to no impact on rim protection.

One thing that may not even be accounted for in his DFG% is when he watches guys get layups from 1-2 ft away. I'd like him not to only improve his 1 on 1 defense inside where JSTock has demonstrated he's one of the worst, while some other rookies like JJJ and Carter are some of the best, but also to help out when guards or forwards are getting to the rim.

Unless I am reading JStock's stats wrong (wouldn't surprise me, I don't fully understand the format), I wouldn't draw the same conclusions.

Based on those stats, Wendell and Jaren aren't just better rim protectors than Joel, Gobert, and AD. Wendell and Jaren are MUCH better rim protectors than the elite DPOYs. I have a hard time subscribing to that. Also, Kanter is a comparable or better rim protector than AD and Gasol? And apparently Kevin Love is an elite rim protector?

FWIW, Ayton's diff DFG% in the last ten games is a respectable -3.8%, better than AD. Ayton is not better than AD defensively, so yeah... i am not going to draw conclusions just yet. As aside note, I don't think rim protection is the be all and end all of discussion for defense. Karl-Anthony Towns' rim protection based on these stats have been elite since his rookie year, and yet he's dreadful as a C.

In all honesty, all Suns fan should hope for is that Ayton shows promise in the defense department. No one should expect him to be a DPOY out of the gate. I don't think stats are perfect but his block/game this month (which happens to be higher than Jaren and Wendell), lower dFG% (per your original post) over the last ten games, and the eye test tells me there's a lot to be optimistic about.

Not sure where you get some of those names...here is the list he provided:

1. Hassan Whiteside -12.9%
2. Serge Ibaka -11.5%
3. Wendel Carter Jr. -10.6%
4. JaVale McGee -10.4%
5. Myles Turner -10.0%
6. Alex Len -10.0%
7. Jusuf Nurkic -9.8%
8. Derrick Favors -9.5%
9. Jaren Jackson Jr -9.3%
10. Joel Embiid -8.4%
...
13. Karl-Anthony Towns -6.8%
...
...
...
34. Deandre Ayton +2.1%

[GoodBehavior]

One thing that may not even be accounted for in his DFG% is when he watches guys get layups from 1-2 ft away. I'd like him not to only improve his 1 on 1 defense inside where JSTock has demonstrated he's one of the worst, while some other rookies like JJJ and Carter are some of the best, but also to help out when guards or forwards are getting to the rim.

Unless I am reading JStock's stats wrong (wouldn't surprise me, I don't fully understand the format), I wouldn't draw the same conclusions.

Based on those stats, Wendell and Jaren aren't just better rim protectors than Joel, Gobert, and AD. Wendell and Jaren are MUCH better rim protectors than the elite DPOYs. I have a hard time subscribing to that. Also, Kanter is a comparable or better rim protector than AD and Gasol? And apparently Kevin Love is an elite rim protector?

FWIW, Ayton's diff DFG% in the last ten games is a respectable -3.8%, better than AD. Ayton is not better than AD defensively, so yeah... i am not going to draw conclusions just yet. As aside note, I don't think rim protection is the be all and end all of discussion for defense. Karl-Anthony Towns' rim protection based on these stats have been elite since his rookie year, and yet he's dreadful as a C.

In all honesty, all Suns fan should hope for is that Ayton shows promise in the defense department. No one should expect him to be a DPOY out of the gate. I don't think stats are perfect but his block/game this month (which happens to be higher than Jaren and Wendell), lower dFG% (per your original post) over the last ten games, and the eye test tells me there's a lot to be optimistic about.

Not sure where you get some of those names...here is the list he provided:

1. Hassan Whiteside -12.9%
2. Serge Ibaka -11.5%
3. Wendel Carter Jr. -10.6%
4. JaVale McGee -10.4%
5. Myles Turner -10.0%
6. Alex Len -10.0%
7. Jusuf Nurkic -9.8%
8. Derrick Favors -9.5%
9. Jaren Jackson Jr -9.3%
10. Joel Embiid -8.4%
...
13. Karl-Anthony Towns -6.8%
...
...
...
34. Deandre Ayton +2.1%

I can't comment on that list. But a list without Gobert, Anthony Davis, and Gasol in the top ten seems a little unusual for me.

This is the link he provided in another post:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/

You can filter for centers/power forwards. Unless I am reading it wrong, Kevin Love is at -10.9%. Marc Gasol is at -2.9%. Anthony Davis is at -2.5%. Kanter is at -3.5%. So yeah, Kanter and Love are "better" rim protectors than Gasol and Davis.

[bwgood77]

Unless I am reading JStock's stats wrong (wouldn't surprise me, I don't fully understand the format), I wouldn't draw the same conclusions.

Based on those stats, Wendell and Jaren aren't just better rim protectors than Joel, Gobert, and AD. Wendell and Jaren are MUCH better rim protectors than the elite DPOYs. I have a hard time subscribing to that. Also, Kanter is a comparable or better rim protector than AD and Gasol? And apparently Kevin Love is an elite rim protector?

FWIW, Ayton's diff DFG% in the last ten games is a respectable -3.8%, better than AD. Ayton is not better than AD defensively, so yeah... i am not going to draw conclusions just yet. As aside note, I don't think rim protection is the be all and end all of discussion for defense. Karl-Anthony Towns' rim protection based on these stats have been elite since his rookie year, and yet he's dreadful as a C.

In all honesty, all Suns fan should hope for is that Ayton shows promise in the defense department. No one should expect him to be a DPOY out of the gate. I don't think stats are perfect but his block/game this month (which happens to be higher than Jaren and Wendell), lower dFG% (per your original post) over the last ten games, and the eye test tells me there's a lot to be optimistic about.

Not sure where you get some of those names...here is the list he provided:

1. Hassan Whiteside -12.9%
2. Serge Ibaka -11.5%
3. Wendel Carter Jr. -10.6%
4. JaVale McGee -10.4%
5. Myles Turner -10.0%
6. Alex Len -10.0%
7. Jusuf Nurkic -9.8%
8. Derrick Favors -9.5%
9. Jaren Jackson Jr -9.3%
10. Joel Embiid -8.4%
...
13. Karl-Anthony Towns -6.8%
...
...
...
34. Deandre Ayton +2.1%

I can't comment on that list. But a list without Gobert, Anthony Davis, and Gasol in the top ten seems a little unusual for me.

This is the link he provided in another post:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/

You can filter for centers/power forwards. Unless I am reading it wrong, Kevin Love is at -10.9%. Marc Gasol is at -2.9%. Anthony Davis is at -2.5%. Kanter is at -3.5%. So yeah, Kanter and Love are "better" rim protectors than Gasol and Davis.

Some of those are extremely small sample sizes though. Love is in 4 games. Even though Kanter has a slightly bigger difference, his DFG% from inside 6 ft is still a worse percentage allowed than Davis or Gasol. https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C

But even though Kanter measures fairly well there, his overall defense is still bad, looking at other metrics...this is just one piece of the puzzle...in DRPM he is 59th among 61 centers. Ayton is 53rd. Bamba is actually 61st. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9

[GoodBehavior]

I think the point of this exercise is to show the perils of concluding anything about rim protection from "relative" dFG% (JStor).

I wholeheartedly agree with you on DPRM. Ayton has been one of the worse centers this year, you will not find anyone who disagree with that. However, that DPRM metric obviously factored in his really bad stretches of games. He has gotten better, considerably better of late. You really don't need stats to see that. But if you insist: Better dFG%, heck also better relative dFG% (10 games) as well, more blocks, better PNR defense, better energy, etc.

He looks different. So yeah, I don't subscribe to the doom and gloom.

[bwgood77]

I'm certainly not doom and gloom, and am the one who posted about his improvement over the last 10. He has gotten better. And yes, I know these stats include bad stretches, for all players actually.

[Saberestar]

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[lilfishi22]

I was super impressed with Ayton's defense in this game. Just the fact that he wasn't letting himself get caught in no-man's-land (not protecting the paint or the shot) has been huge for his rim protection. In earlier games, he would get switched out onto the ball handler in PnR situations, briefly stick with him defensively and just let the guy get to the rim as if there was a help defender behind him to cover. Now he's actually following the ball handler all the way to the basket. I saw him making quick decisions to fall back to protect the rim or jump out to challenge the shooter and that's what I want to see from my C.

I honestly think being able to ride the pine a little more while watching Holmes get more playing time has been crucially beneficial to his defensive development. Just being able to watch a guy who is excellent with help D, times shot attempt challenges so he's able to cover as much ground and playing with maximum effort every time he's on the court I think helps Ayton learn. Earlier in the season when Holmes wasn't playing or wasn't getting much PT, it was just Ayton out there trying to learn on the job but now that Holmes is getting consistent PT and for good stretches, it's really allowed Ayton to watch and understand better where he needs to be.

[Frank Lee]

Ayton needs 20-30 lbs more bulk ... he can carry it.
Right now, he shrinks when he has to go against big dudes like Adams and Boban etc. he’s used to being the biggest. I hope he’s hitting the weight and dining room. He’ll get better as he gets stronger and learns how to establish position.... I don’t think the guy will ever get intense but at least he won’t be so squeezable

[hollywood6964]

Ayton needs 20-30 lbs more bulk ... he can carry it.
Right now, he shrinks when he has to go against big dudes like Adams and Boban etc. he’s used to being the biggest. I hope he’s hitting the weight and dining room. He’ll get better as he gets stronger and learns how to establish position.... I don’t think the guy will ever get intense but at least he won’t be so squeezable

I'm sure the team is pressing for the highest test dosage they possibly can for him through the medical staff. He will gain some weight. I think 30 might be a bit much though. On the other side of the coin, I think a pg would make him look like world beater, along with another year of experience.