12/14 | G27: Oklahoma City Thunder at Denver Nuggets - 9PM CST

[Pillendreher]

I told y'all that the Pelicans game was a bad, bad loss. This team just can't lose the "easy points" battle the way they're bricking shots left and right.

Last two games:

34 points from the FT line on 56 attempts for the Thunder, 38 points from the FT line on 45 attempts for the Pelicans and Nuggets
37 points off turnovers for the Thunder, 31 points off turnovers for the Pelicans and Nuggets
30 2nd chance points for the Thunder, 36 2nd chance points for the Pelicans and Nuggets
22 fast break points for the Thunder, 19 fast break points for the Pelicans and Nuggets

That's a total of 123 for the Thunder vs 124 for the Pelicans and Nuggets. We just can't break even or even lose in these categories and expect to win the game when Russ has 10 points with 5 minutes to go in the 4th and everybody else is throwing up bricks. We are not consistent enough offensively for that.

Defensively, they were - just like against the Pelicans - simply not quick enough. Too many rotations were late, they didn't contest shots properly...as soon as somebody started to move the defense was scrambling. The guys on ESPN can gush about Jokic's passing all they want, but you just can't get beat off the ball by some scrubs nobody outside of Denver has ever heard of if you want to be the best defense in the league. And even if some turd drains bs jumpers in your face: Go out and contest them. A lot of these "Who's that?...COME ON" shots they made, the Thunder weren't even in vecinity of the player taking the shot. Also: TOO MUCH SWITCHING. This **** started with the Brooklyn game and it needs to stop. Tell Russ to man the **** up or sit some games out until he's willing to give basic effort defensively. We're taking away our chance at a win with this ****.

PS: The contest % stat is telling me that my eye test has been correct. Up until the Brooklyn game (ie the last game included was the Pistons one), they were excellent in contesting shots. Since then, they have been horrible, especially on 2PA:

Opp 2PA: 73.4 %, 2nd best before the Brooklyn game | 61.7 % since then, would rank 29th on the season
Opp 3PA: 81.8 %, 5th best before the Brooklyn game | 81.7 % since then, would rank 5th on the season
Overall: 76.3 %, 3rd best before the Brooklyn game | 68.3 % since then, would rank 25th on the season

This is just unacceptable. Stop making the same mistakes every damn night.

[RalphSampsonJr]

Get PG and Adams some damn help

[Mattv]

Out side of Adams,Westbrook George, Grant and Schroder guess how many shot attempts the rest of the team had?No cheating.

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It had to be less than 10. Abrines had 1, Patterson 2, Noel I think had 1. Diallo had 2 I think.

Was going to bring this up, the offense isn't generating looks for the second tier role players like Abrines and Patterson, etc. We get mad cause they can't hit shots but damn, you gotta get FGAs to get makes.

Yes.. Patterson had 3 shot attempts the rest only had 4.That 7 shot attempts between Abrines,Ferguson,Diallo and Noel that why the young guns cant get any confidence.

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[Old Man Game]

Out side of Adams,Westbrook George, Grant and Schroder guess how many shot attempts the rest of the team had?No cheating.

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It had to be less than 10. Abrines had 1, Patterson 2, Noel I think had 1. Diallo had 2 I think.

Was going to bring this up, the offense isn't generating looks for the second tier role players like Abrines and Patterson, etc. We get mad cause they can't hit shots but damn, you gotta get FGAs to get makes.

Yes.. Patterson had 3 shot attempts the rest only had 4.That 7 shot attempts between Abrines,Ferguson,Diallo and Noel that why the young guns cant get any confidence.

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Yep. Even vets like Patterson need to be more involved than that to ever get any semblance of a rhythm. It's no wonder no one can make anything.

[Old Man Game]

I told y'all that the Pelicans game was a bad, bad loss. This team just can't lose the "easy points" battle the way they're bricking shots left and right.

Last two games:

34 points from the FT line on 56 attempts for the Thunder, 38 points from the FT line on 45 attempts for the Pelicans and Nuggets
37 points off turnovers for the Thunder, 31 points off turnovers for the Pelicans and Nuggets
30 2nd chance points for the Thunder, 36 2nd chance points for the Pelicans and Nuggets
22 fast break points for the Thunder, 19 fast break points for the Pelicans and Nuggets

That's a total of 123 for the Thunder vs 124 for the Pelicans and Nuggets. We just can't break even or even lose in these categories and expect to win the game when Russ has 10 points with 5 minutes to go in the 4th and everybody else is throwing up bricks. We are not consistent enough offensively for that.

Defensively, they were - just like against the Pelicans - simply not quick enough. Too many rotations were late, they didn't contest shots properly...as soon as somebody started to move the defense was scrambling. The guys on ESPN can gush about Jokic's passing all they want, but you just can't get beat off the ball by some scrubs nobody outside of Denver has ever heard of if you want to be the best defense in the league. And even if some turd drains bs jumpers in your face: Go out and contest them. A lot of these "Who's that?...COME ON" shots they made, the Thunder weren't even in vecinity of the player taking the shot. Also: TOO MUCH SWITCHING. This **** started with the Brooklyn game and it needs to stop. Tell Russ to man the **** up or sit some games out until he's willing to give basic effort defensively. We're taking away our chance at a win with this ****.

PS: The contest % stat is telling me that my eye test has been correct. Up until the Brooklyn game (ie the last game included was the Pistons one), they were excellent in contesting shots. Since then, they have been horrible, especially on 2PA:

Opp 2PA: 73.4 %, 2nd best before the Brooklyn game | 61.7 % since then, would rank 29th on the season
Opp 3PA: 81.8 %, 5th best before the Brooklyn game | 81.7 % since then, would rank 5th on the season
Overall: 76.3 %, 3rd best before the Brooklyn game | 68.3 % since then, would rank 25th on the season

This is just unacceptable. Stop making the same mistakes every damn night.

I put most all our problems on Westbrook. His defense is atrocious and he can't even make free throws. A lot of that switching is him just being plain lazy and not committing to the scheme. Unless and until he gets right this team is going to continue to drop games it should win fairly easily.

[SecondTake]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

[Thundershock88]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

Exactly, and the alternative is to have Felton ball hog it.

[slick_watts]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

so your theory is that patrick patterson and alex abrines magically forgot how to make threes this season? if they are on the court, they should be getting 3pt attempts.

this sort of reactionary, short attention span decision making and validation of schroder's ball hogging is silly. no, the bench would not be 'as bad as the rockets'. schroder is a ball hog turnover machine with those bench units. he needs to move the ball around more but it's not in his nature. outside of flipping bad lobs he just prefers to iso.

[slick_watts]

I’ve watched the altercation between russ and Murray multiple times now. Russ just instantly lost his mind once Murray touched him. Its not just about wins and losses for me but how they happen. His style of play along with his behavior is so tough for me to deal with.

he's a petulant hot head.

[Pillendreher]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

What kind of circular thinking is this? You'd rather him become a complete black hole instead of creating shots for his teammates because they'd miss the shots that he's not even getting them? Schröder has not created good opportunities for the bench lately. I know they're not making them, but it's Schröder's job to get them the shots they should take nevertheless. Why not try to run a little something with either Abrines or Schröder? How about a pick and pop? Back-door lob for Diallo? You can't just stop doing what you're supposed to do and then try to justify it by claiming that you strayed from your task because the thing you didn't do didn't produce results.

We can't just have Schröder channel his inner Westbrook with the bench. He's not good enough for that. He's at 59 TS% on 38 USG% with the bench since Russ came back (which are insane numbers actually) and the bench has been at 94 ORtG (!!!) despite that. This is not working, even with him making 47 % of his 3s with the bench like he has since Russ came back. He can't carry the bench individually and he's not looking for his teammates enough.

[Pillendreher]

schroder is a ball hog turnover machine with those bench units.

Since Russ came back from the ankle injury a month ago, Schröder has 20 assists with the bench to 15 turnovers in 97 minutes/210 possessions, so that's 9.5 assists per 100 possessions and 7.1 turnovers per 100 possessions. The assists are actually at his career average level, but the turnovers are rough. And out of those 20 assists, just 3 have gone to a made 3 pointer. Abrines has assisted on as many 3 pointers as Schröder with the bench in almost 20 minutes less played than Schröder.

[SecondTake]

schroder is a ball hog turnover machine with those bench units.

Since Russ came back from the ankle injury a month ago, Schröder has 20 assists with the bench to 15 turnovers in 97 minutes/210 possessions, so that's 9.5 assists per 100 possessions and 7.1 turnovers per 100 possessions. The assists are actually at his career average level, but the turnovers are rough. And out of those 20 assists, just 3 have gone to a made 3 pointer. Abrines has assisted on as many 3 pointers as Schröder with the bench in almost 20 minutes less played than Schröder.

Yeah that just points to ow trash the bench is. You're not going to get any assists passing to those guys, I dont care if you're magic johnson.

[SecondTake]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

What kind of circular thinking is this? You'd rather him become a complete black hole instead of creating shots for his teammates because they'd miss the shots that he's not even getting them? Schröder has not created good opportunities for the bench lately. I know they're not making them, but it's Schröder's job to get them the shots they should take nevertheless. Why not try to run a little something with either Abrines or Schröder? How about a pick and pop? Back-door lob for Diallo? You can't just stop doing what you're supposed to do and then try to justify it by claiming that you strayed from your task because the thing you didn't do didn't produce results.

We can't just have Schröder channel his inner Westbrook with the bench. He's not good enough for that. He's at 59 TS% on 38 USG% with the bench since Russ came back (which are insane numbers actually) and the bench has been at 94 ORtG (!!!) despite that. This is not working, even with him making 47 % of his 3s with the bench like he has since Russ came back. He can't carry the bench individually and he's not looking for his teammates enough.

Actually you can. If somethings not working you should stop doing it. Passing it to Abrines and Patterson is like passing the ball in to a black hole. Shroder is no black hole, the guy is averaging 17 points with a decent number of assists considering who he's working with. His numbers are even better when he has some starters to pass to, which indicates that the issue isn't him, but the guys around him. He's averaging 17-4-5 off the bench, cant really ask for much more from him.

[getrichordie]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

What kind of circular thinking is this? You'd rather him become a complete black hole instead of creating shots for his teammates because they'd miss the shots that he's not even getting them? Schröder has not created good opportunities for the bench lately. I know they're not making them, but it's Schröder's job to get them the shots they should take nevertheless. Why not try to run a little something with either Abrines or Schröder? How about a pick and pop? Back-door lob for Diallo? You can't just stop doing what you're supposed to do and then try to justify it by claiming that you strayed from your task because the thing you didn't do didn't produce results.

We can't just have Schröder channel his inner Westbrook with the bench. He's not good enough for that. He's at 59 TS% on 38 USG% with the bench since Russ came back (which are insane numbers actually) and the bench has been at 94 ORtG (!!!) despite that. This is not working, even with him making 47 % of his 3s with the bench like he has since Russ came back. He can't carry the bench individually and he's not looking for his teammates enough.

So... Schroder should stop doing such a good job carrying the bench so we can get guys like Diallo and Patterson shots?


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[SecondTake]

it's unbelievable to me how anyone can watch schroder in these bench units and conclude that this is a strength of the team. he's a ball hog and a really average passer, at best.

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

so your theory is that patrick patterson and alex abrines magically forgot how to make threes this season? if they are on the court, they should be getting 3pt attempts.

this sort of reactionary, short attention span decision making and validation of schroder's ball hogging is silly. no, the bench would not be 'as bad as the rockets'. schroder is a ball hog turnover machine with those bench units. he needs to move the ball around more but it's not in his nature. outside of flipping bad lobs he just prefers to iso.

Patterson already forgot last year and he's even worse this year. Cant blame Shroder for how bad those guys are. Why don't we just blame the guys that are bad, instead of deflecting on Shroder? This isn't an averahe bench he's working with. These guys might be the worst in the league. Patterson is an absolute team killer when he's out there, Abrines is a shooter that cant shoot, even when getting wide open shots. Diallo is raw, and although a semi decent cutter he's redundant with Shroders skillset.

I mean this team has zero spacing, and you're asking for a driving PG to do something about it. If he had some guys that could make threes at a high school level he'd be runaway 6th man of the year.

[getrichordie]

What do you want him to do? Pass it to Patterson, Abrines or Diallo for a sure-fire brick or turnover? Without Shroder we would be as bad as the rockets thanks to that bench. I'd rather him hog the ball than allow Patterson and Abrines to even have a sniff at it.

so your theory is that patrick patterson and alex abrines magically forgot how to make threes this season? if they are on the court, they should be getting 3pt attempts.

this sort of reactionary, short attention span decision making and validation of schroder's ball hogging is silly. no, the bench would not be 'as bad as the rockets'. schroder is a ball hog turnover machine with those bench units. he needs to move the ball around more but it's not in his nature. outside of flipping bad lobs he just prefers to iso.

Patterson already forgot last year and he's even worse this year. Cant blame Shroder for how bad those guys are. Why don't we just blame the guys that are bad, instead of deflecting on Shroder? This isn't an averahe bench he's working with. These guys might be the worst in the league. Patterson is an absolute team killer when he's out there, Abrines is a shooter that cant shoot, even when getting wide open shots. Diallo is raw, and although a semi decent cutter he's redundant with Shroders skillset.

I mean this team has zero spacing, and you're asking for a driving PG to do something about it. If he had some guys that could make threes at a high school level he'd be runaway 6th man of the year.

This 100%. C’mon guys. We are on a basketball forum. We have to have smarter takes here.


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[slick_watts]

Patterson already forgot last year

yeah, no. patterson shot a 38.6% from three last season, the 2nd highest percentage of his career. there's no reason to expect he won't get back to the 36-38% range if he continues to get shot attempts. he's 29 years old. the best way to ensure he does not get there is to not get him shots.

patterson has attempted 75 threes this year. in the four prior seasons he shot 37%+ on 1000+ attempts. he should be shooting more. it's not likely he'll shoot < 30% from three in the long run.

Why don't we just blame the guys that are bad, instead of deflecting on Shroder?

dennis schroder was billed as a backup point guard who could carry the bench. he is not carrying the bench. the bench sucks. he's being paid $15.5mm and is owed two more years at that amount. plus the thunder gave up a pick to get him. if he can't carry a bench to even an average looking offense... what's the point?

patterson and abrines have started the season slow shooting the ball. that doesn't mean they will continue to do so. both have hundreds, and in patterson's case 1000+, attempts in the last few seasons shooting at a decent clip. schroder is going to solve nothing by ball hogging and ignoring those guys. but that's what he is doing, essentially.

I mean this team has zero spacing, and you're asking for a driving PG to do something about it. If he had some guys that could make threes at a high school level he'd be runaway 6th man of the year.

raymond felton had no problem doing it. why is it so hard for dennis schroder? it's because he's not a great play maker. that was his m.o. in atlanta. he likes to iso and he likes to create his own shot and throw fancy lobs around.

a great way to ensure the team will continue to struggle offensively in that bench unit is to not get shot attempts for the guys who have proven to be reliable in the recent past. and that's what schroder is doing. he sucks. plain and simple.

[Pillendreher]

If somethings not working you should stop doing it.

He hasn't been doing it, that's the whole point. You're trying to absolve him of that by pretending that it wouldn't have worked anyway after the fact.

Passing it to Abrines and Patterson is like passing the ball in to a black hole.

He's not passing it to anybody save to Noel with his bad lob attempts.

His numbers are even better when he has some starters to pass to, which indicates that the issue isn't him, but the guys around him.

Well, duh. Of course his assist numbers are (slightly) better because he has better shot makers around him. Nobody is denying that his bench teammates haven't been making shots. But that doesn't give him a get out of jail free card. It's his job to lead that unit offensively. And if the results aren't there, he's failed, period. He's not out there getting his teammates wide open dunks every time down the floor. He's not doing his absolute best with his teammates failing him despite that.

He's averaging 17-4-5 off the bench, cant really ask for much more from him.

Of course you can. He's making 15 million a year. If he really is the "best backup point guard in the league", than the bench needs to be way better than this offensively. it's ridiculous to absolve a point guard of any blame whatsoever when the unit he leads is almost 9 (!!!) points per 100 possessions below the league average ORtG. That's not just bad, that's beyond horrific. cleaningtheglass literally has the bench unit in the 11th percentile on offense.

This 100%. C’mon guys. We are on a basketball forum. We have to have smarter takes here.

You of all people should not talk about "smarter takes".

[getrichordie]

If somethings not working you should stop doing it.

He hasn't been doing it, that's the whole point. You're trying to absolve him of that by pretending that it wouldn't have worked anyway after the fact.

Passing it to Abrines and Patterson is like passing the ball in to a black hole.

He's not passing it to anybody save to Noel with his bad lob attempts.

His numbers are even better when he has some starters to pass to, which indicates that the issue isn't him, but the guys around him.

Well, duh. Of course his assist numbers are (slightly) better because he has better shot makers around him. Nobody is denying that his bench teammates haven't been making shots. But that doesn't give him a get out of jail free card. It's his job to lead that unit offensively. And if the results aren't there, he's failed, period. He's not out there getting his teammates wide open dunks every time down the floor. He's not doing his absolute best with his teammates failing him despite that.

He's averaging 17-4-5 off the bench, cant really ask for much more from him.

Of course you can. He's making 15 million a year. If he really is the "best backup point guard in the league", than the bench needs to be way better than this offensively. it's ridiculous to absolve a point guard of any blame whatsoever when the unit he leads is almost 9 (!!!) points per 100 possessions below the league average ORtG. That's not just bad, that's beyond horrific. cleaningtheglass literally has the bench unit in the 11th percentile on offense.

This 100%. C’mon guys. We are on a basketball forum. We have to have smarter takes here.

You of all people should not talk about "smarter takes".

Sure, I’ve had some bad takes in the past but haven’t we all? The difference is that I learn from them.

I’m honestly surprised you aren’t blaming our bench performance on Donovan.

When the bench as a whole isn’t performing well it’s so easy to point to Schroder as the problem and look up all of these stats (that don’t directly implicate Schroder as being bad for the second unit) to support your claims.

How about we look at the TS% on everyone outside of Schroder on second unit or how many times they are getting to the line?

How about we look at how Schroder (and the bench) is performing relative to opponents’ bench strength?

Our bench sucks against coaches who have a bench and know what they are doing. They are able to key in on Schroder and close off his passing lanes when he penetrates because they aren’t worried about a Diallo (or Westbrook that much) or a Patterson and they certainly aren’t worried about Abrines or Patterson driving. You can literally leave a man on Abrines and have Diallo (or Westbrook) and Patterson’s guy help off just enough to close those passing lanes and bother Schroder’s drive.

The key to stopping our bench is transition defense. As long as guys get back on defense against our bench, we suck at scoring on set defenses because of the aforementioned issues.




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[Dn4sty]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump