12/14 | G27: Oklahoma City Thunder at Denver Nuggets - 9PM CST

[getrichordie]

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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And yet you’re not open minded to the fact Dononvan bears any responsibility for the bench play? Schroder looks smooth so it hides some of mistakes. Royce says that Westbrook’s mistskes are louder than everyone else’s. Some, but not all of it, is due to russ playing so much faster/forceful. It doesn’t mean that schroder is playing well.

I’m not saying he doesn’t bear that responsibility. Of course he bears that responsibility. But there’s only so much you can do with a roster. He isn’t Jesus. He can’t turn water into wine and right now there’s a lot of water on the roster.

And I agree with your assessment that Schroder being smooth hides his mistakes at times and the Westbrook stuff. I’m not saying Schroder is better than Westbrook and I’m certainly not saying Schroder doesn’t make mistakes. What I’m saying is that like Westbrook needs wing help, so does Schroder. They are essentially the same kind of player. Not a great outside shot but great at penetrating. They can put you on skates and get the defense off balance.


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[getrichordie]

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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Having stupid takes doesn't make you open minded. Listening to the evidence and basing your opinions on it does. Not that anyone with any sense needed proof that Westbrook is better at creating for his teammates, but we've literally watched this dumb*** take get exposed while you've doubled down.

Lol!! Coming from the guy who isn’t listening to evidence. Maybe you just put too much stock in advanced stats and all of that jazz and not enough stock in basketball common sense.


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[spearsy23]

you don't see the point of picking apart percentages? you're the one that claimed 'that happened' for patterson last season, a year where pat shot 38.6% from three which would be perfectly acceptable.

he's making less of them this year, yes. how do we get patrick patterson back to shooting 38% from three? the answer is not to stop getting patrick patterson jump shots, is it?

you play this off like it's meaningless, but adjusting patrick patterson's 3pt% to his career # would on its own improve our offense from 101pp100 to 103.1pp100 in the minutes he has played. the question remains why there is reason to believe that he can suddenly not shoot? you claim he was bad last year, but he was still able to shoot last year. i'll wait.



in games westbrook has played this year, the bench units with schroder (i.e. westbrook out) haven't performed much better than the bench units with felton did last season collectively. those units extracted plenty of value from players like abrines and patterson. why isn't schroder?

i'm not saying felton is better than schroder. i'm saying that schroder hasn't had any meaningful impact on the bench units so far. they aren't much better than felton bench units last year.



it might be, it might not be. it's too soon to tell. incidentally, george also shoots much worse from three in bench units with schroder. pretty much everyone shoots worse from three in those units except for schroder himself.

but it's way, way, way too early to make judgments on either abrines or patterson as shooters, which is what it seems schroder has done lately (last 1-2 weeks) freezing them out.



like a certain other former thunder player, schroder is known for putting up counting stats but not really having all that much of a positive impact. can you guess who that player was?

Last time you posted the numbers wasn't the bench like +2/100 over last year?

closer to +1/100 now.

and the difference offensively is really what i guess is pertinent to this discussion in particular, which is nearly 10/100. defense has been far better. noel has been the driver of these units when they have been successful this year, not schroder, imo.

I do think Schroder adds some value defensively, at least in specific matchups. In the playoffs Exum was running past Felton like Yi jianlin vs a chair.

Also, has Grant played in those all bench lineups any? No real reason to expect that would have any significant impact other than curiosity.

[spearsy23]

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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Having stupid takes doesn't make you open minded. Listening to the evidence and basing your opinions on it does. Not that anyone with any sense needed proof that Westbrook is better at creating for his teammates, but we've literally watched this dumb*** take get exposed while you've doubled down.

Lol!! Coming from the guy who isn’t listening to evidence. Maybe you just put too much stock in advanced stats and all of that jazz and not enough stock in basketball common sense.


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Saying "I trust his decision making more" isn't evidence. It's like saying "I think the Earth is flat."

[getrichordie]

Last time you posted the numbers wasn't the bench like +2/100 over last year?

closer to +1/100 now.

and the difference offensively is really what i guess is pertinent to this discussion in particular, which is nearly 10/100. defense has been far better. noel has been the driver of these units when they have been successful this year, not schroder, imo.

I do think Schroder adds some value defensively, at least in specific matchups. In the playoffs Exum was running past Felton like Yi jianlin vs a chair.

Also, has Grant played in those all bench lineups any? No real reason to expect that would have any significant impact other than curiosity.

So two things cannot be true at the same time? Schroder has been carrying the offensive load and Noel has been carrying the defensive load. There ya go.


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[spearsy23]

closer to +1/100 now.

and the difference offensively is really what i guess is pertinent to this discussion in particular, which is nearly 10/100. defense has been far better. noel has been the driver of these units when they have been successful this year, not schroder, imo.

I do think Schroder adds some value defensively, at least in specific matchups. In the playoffs Exum was running past Felton like Yi jianlin vs a chair.

Also, has Grant played in those all bench lineups any? No real reason to expect that would have any significant impact other than curiosity.

So two things cannot be true at the same time? Schroder has been carrying the offensive load and Noel has been carrying the defensive load. There ya go.


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That looks really bad for schroder then. And REALLY good for Noel.

[getrichordie]

I do think Schroder adds some value defensively, at least in specific matchups. In the playoffs Exum was running past Felton like Yi jianlin vs a chair.

Also, has Grant played in those all bench lineups any? No real reason to expect that would have any significant impact other than curiosity.

So two things cannot be true at the same time? Schroder has been carrying the offensive load and Noel has been carrying the defensive load. There ya go.


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That looks really bad for schroder then. And REALLY good for Noel.

Not when you consider that Schroder doesn’t get any help from the second unit. Why do you think Patterson was removed from the starting lineup? Because Westbrook was getting him the ball and he was missing. Now that’s Schroder’s problem to deal with.

How many points per game do the second unit guys average combined (outside of Schroder and Noel)?

Who’s the best offensive player on the second unit outside of Schroder?

How do you think Westbrook would look if he played consistent minutes with Patterson, Abrines, Noel, and Diallo against better defenses?

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[spearsy23]

So two things cannot be true at the same time? Schroder has been carrying the offensive load and Noel has been carrying the defensive load. There ya go.


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That looks really bad for schroder then. And REALLY good for Noel.

Not when you consider that Schroder doesn’t get any help from the second unit. Why do you think Patterson was removed from the starting lineup? Because Westbrook was getting him the ball and he was missing. Now that’s Schroder’s problem to deal with.

How many points per game do the second unit guys average combined (outside of Schroder and Noel)?

Who’s the best offensive player on the second unit outside of Schroder?

How do you think Westbrook would look if he played consistent minutes with Patterson, Abrines, Noel, and Diallo against better defenses?

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It's impossible to say because the minutes aren't there, but Westbrook/abrines/Patterson without George/Adams are currently at 121.2 o rating.

[ThunderBolt]

i would like to know when we will gwt a chance to see Tyler Davis play with the Thunder? we need someone like him to get rebounds and to make his presence felt on the floor he can score too!

[ThunderBolt]

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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And yet you’re not open minded to the fact Dononvan bears any responsibility for the bench play? Schroder looks smooth so it hides some of mistakes. Royce says that Westbrook’s mistskes are louder than everyone else’s. Some, but not all of it, is due to russ playing so much faster/forceful. It doesn’t mean that schroder is playing well.

I’m not saying he doesn’t bear that responsibility. Of course he bears that responsibility. But there’s only so much you can do with a roster. He isn’t Jesus. He can’t turn water into wine and right now there’s a lot of water on the roster.

And I agree with your assessment that Schroder being smooth hides his mistakes at times and the Westbrook stuff. I’m not saying Schroder is better than Westbrook and I’m certainly not saying Schroder doesn’t make mistakes. What I’m saying is that like Westbrook needs wing help, so does Schroder. They are essentially the same kind of player. Not a great outside shot but great at penetrating. They can put you on skates and get the defense off balance.


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That’s probably as close as we’ll ever get to agreeing on a post. Have a good evening.

[slick_watts]

westbrook's good at finishing even in his washed state this season while schroder is atrocious. if schroder wasn't killing it from three (for him) he'd be right where westbrook is efficiency wise.

[getrichordie]

That looks really bad for schroder then. And REALLY good for Noel.

Not when you consider that Schroder doesn’t get any help from the second unit. Why do you think Patterson was removed from the starting lineup? Because Westbrook was getting him the ball and he was missing. Now that’s Schroder’s problem to deal with.

How many points per game do the second unit guys average combined (outside of Schroder and Noel)?

Who’s the best offensive player on the second unit outside of Schroder?

How do you think Westbrook would look if he played consistent minutes with Patterson, Abrines, Noel, and Diallo against better defenses?

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It's impossible to say because the minutes aren't there, but Westbrook/abrines/Patterson without George/Adams are currently at 121.2 o rating.

Westbrook/Patterson/Abrines (w/o Schroder or George) = 85 ORtg/88DRtg on the season in limited minutes (28).

EDIT: Scratch that. That’s with Schroder and George factored in there as well. NBA stats is giving me trouble.


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[getrichordie]

So this is what NBA Impact tool has to say:

RW/AA/2P on + DS/PG off:

14 minutes
91.9 ORtg

... and if you flip it:

so.. PG/DS on + RW/AA/2P off:

172 minutes
112.7 ORtg

—

DS/AA/2P on + RW/PG off:

101.7 ORtg/101.7 DRtg

(neutral, not bad or good but better than Felton 2U)

Schroder has a TS% of 51.4% in this lineup. Not surprising.

Abrines is 38.5 FG% on 11 FGA per 100. (no surprise, he’s keyed in on as the best perimeter threat in this lineup)
Patterson? 44.1% on 14.1 (44.4% from 3 on 7.6)
Diallo? 46.2% on 17.7 (not surprised; he can create space for himself where AA and 2P cannot.)
Noel? 51.6% on 16.1
Schroder? 44.4% on 30.3 (47% from 3 on 7.1)

** How I interpret this data is by looking at how many shots a player is getting and why they are getting so many or so few. So at first glance, you might say “2Pat is shooting so well in these lineups; why doesn’t Schroder get him the ball more?” He tries too. Watch next game and see why he can’t get him the ball. Schroder’s right wing is usually Abrines who they can help off of to bother Schroder’s drive so it closes off the passing lane from Schroder to 2Pat. Well, why doesn’t he go left? Diallo is standing in the left corner usually and DS loves going left (he’s a lefty) so if he can get behind his defender (sometimes uses Noel screen here), the weakside defense (2P + AAs defenders) can collapse on the passing lanes. Abrines often lacks the awareness to rotate here and give Schroder a passing lane which is why he isn’t played that much. Why doesn’t he kick it out to Diallo more? Because Diallo is not a shooter. Why doesn’t Schroder throw cross court passes to AA and 2P from left side to right side of court? That often results in turnovers because Schroder is a smaller guard. Smart defenses know how to scheme against our bench because our bench isn’t good. Even Westbrook would not look good with this bench.

—

Add [HD on] to that equation:

67 minutes
104.8 ORtg (no surprise because Diallo can actually do something)
111.00 DRtg (put Diallo in and offenses switch bigs on to Schroder, attack the poor footwork of Abrines or blow by 2-Pat’s slow ass.)

—

Now let’s add a *competent* perimeter player back into the mix to provide more spacing (George w/o Russ) so...

DS/AA/PG/2P

39 minutes (surprised to see George get so few minutes with this group)
101.0 ORtg
84.7 DRtg

In the above lineup, Schroder has a 64.6 TS% on 28 attempts/100p. It’s amazing what a competent wing can do for Schroder. George’s shooting #s take a dive here because of the same exact issues Schroder is dealing with (lack of spacing), except George is right handed and doesn’t read floor as well as Schroder.


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[slick_watts]

good lord.

[getrichordie]

good lord.

You want evidence and analysis? There it is.


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[slick_watts]

good lord.

You want evidence and analysis? There it is.

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is that what that is? it looks like alphabet soup to me. or the output of a google ai that's trained to write realgm posts.

[getrichordie]

good lord.

You want evidence and analysis? There it is.

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is that what that is? it looks like alphabet soup to me. or the output of a google ai that's trained to write realgm posts.

I apologize for the formatting. It’s a writer’s thing. Just gotta get it out there.


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