Bounce_9 wrote:I cast my vote for Elvin Hayes.
I feel there's a sizeable gap between him and anyone else, both in individual stats and in impact on team defense.
My only big concern with him is that his contemporaries rated him consistently below other candidates like DeBusschere and Silas, at least it's what it seems like, looking at all-defensive teams. Hayes has only 2 2nd team selections in his resume while DeBusschere has 6 1st teams and most of them came when both of them were in their prime. Usually I don't give too much weight to this because a lot of non-basketball-related factors are included in all league selections (though maybe it wasn't the case back then) but, since some stats are lacking from Dave's prime years and thus it's difficult to get an idea of his real value, it's something to keep an eye on.
I must say I have some troubles in giving all the credit to DeBusschere for the Knicks' improvements following his trade because at the same time NY got rid of Bellamy who isn't exactly known for his D to put it nicely.
Unless someone can really make a case that voters were getting this right and that DeBusschere was rightfully seen as a better defender than Hayes, I'm going to stick with the latter.
Quoting you from the last thread, with the intent to reply primarily to the bolded section. There's some irony in what follows, given I voted for Hayes in the last thread instead of DeBusschere; fwiw, I almost changed my vote to DeBusschere toward the end, which would have had it as a tie. But I was waffling, and out of respect to those who'd said they'd prefer to change their vote to keep Dave from taking that spot, I did nothing.
wrt to implications that the improvement to the '69 Knicks may have had as much to do with losing Bellamy as DeBusschere coming aboard.....
Likely that had something to do with it (perhaps not so much a huge slant against Bellamy as it was just that Reed was better utilized as a C; see the whole scenario with AD and the Pelicans once Cousins went down for reference). Just my observations from the limited amount I've seen of him: I don't think Bellamy was quite as poor defensively as he's sometimes painted.
But at any rate, it's a startling improvement: prior to obtaining DeBusschere in '69 the Knicks were 18-17, +0.9 MOV, and allowing 107.8 ppg. After the trade, they went 36-11, +9.4 MOV, and allowed 103.0 ppg.
They'd been a -0.3 rDRTG overall in '68, improved to -2.2 in '69 with a little over half-season of DeBusschere. Improved to a ridiculous -6.6 in '70, and averaged a -3.9 rDRTG in the next five full seasons he was on the team (never worse than -1.6, and -3.0 in his final season).
The first year after his retirement ('75), they plummet to +0.6 rDRTG. Willis Reed and Jerry Lucas had also just retired, but Reed had already been a non-factor in ‘74, and by most accounts losing Lucas was more likely to improve your defense. They still had the same basic perimeter core (Frazier/Bradley/Monroe) as in ‘74, as well as Phil Jackson playing major minutes in both seasons.
Detroit’s rDRTG fell off quite a lot with the trade of DeBusschere for Bellamy, too.
DeBusschere’s prime WOWYR on Elgee’s Back Picks site is +5.9…….yes, there are some role players with similar WOWYR scores (e.g. Amir Johnson, Jim Paxson), but the majority keeping him company in that region are players like Chris Paul, Dolph Schayes, Hakeem Olajuwon, Vlade Divac, and Chauncey Billups.
And when you look at positive indicators for DeBusschere’s impact, let’s ask ourselves which end we think his impact is coming from [mostly]. I think with Dave DeBusschere it’s obviously not the offensive end: he was not a playmaker, and he scored middling volume on mediocre to poor efficiency. He could shoot from the outside, so one could argue he stretched the floor, thus helping on offense. But there was no 3pt line, so there were limits to how far the floor could be stretched, and he was someone who was periodically guarded by opposing SF’s anyway. So whatever impact he had, it was largely defensively.
So we next have to ask ourselves, do we believe he was having substantial impact? Obviously we don’t have more reliable indicators such as RAPM, but let’s look at what we do have:
*is substantial impact indicated by with/without studies? As illustrated above, yes, absolutely (VERY substantial, as a matter of fact).
**Do we see a consistent trend when he arrives/leaves a team? Yes (as illustrated above), at times substantially, and ESPECIALLY on the defensive end.
***Did he have a reputation at the time as a big impact defender? Well, All-D honors were only awarded for his final six seasons; he made All-D 1st Team six times, so….
If EVERYTHING we can look at indicates he was a big impact defensive player, it honestly feels like a stretch to say
nah, I don’t think he was.By way of scouting, I was just yesterday watching some of Game 4 of the ‘75 Finals, as well as a Bullets/Knicks game from ‘73, specifically to scrutinize the defense of both Hayes and DeBusschere. Although I voted for Hayes last thread, on a consistent play-to-play basis, I was actually more visually impressed with DeBusschere (and not particularly close).
DeBusschere was tasked with guarding Wes friggin’ Unseld, and I guess I’d forgotten just how physical DeBusschere could be. He was laying into Unseld, and I was pretty surprised to see Unseld actually getting bonked and moved by this guy (Unseld has this reputation that running into him is like running into a wall). DeBusschere was
consistently physical, pushing Unseld off his spots, popping over for some timely rotations on help D, using verticality effectively to defend some shots, and consistently boxing out (nabbing some boards away from Unseld, too). His quickness on both ends and speed in getting up and down the court clearly indicate he’d be capable of guarding SF’s or even some SG’s, too (so that’s a fair bit of versatility).
Hayes, otoh, I was somewhat disappointed to see occasional plays where he was a split-second late on a rotation, not boxing out (somewhat frequently, actually), and not consistently getting a hand up on some mid-range shots.
Don’t get me wrong, the evidence is fairly clear that Hayes had some substantial defensive impact, too (and he certainly has a solid longevity edge). I’m guessing that his attributes as a rim-protector (avg 2.7 blk/100 poss from ‘74-’80) make up for some periodic deficiencies; stopping a shot near the rim is just such a high-value play. But again, possession to possession, DeBusschere looked MUCH more impressive to me, if I’m being honest.
Anyway, as such…..
Vote: Dave DeBusschere"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
