#6 Greatest Defensive PF of all time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[Dr Positivity]

Vote for debusschere because I'm not particularly impressed with any of the remaining candidates (except for draymond who lacks longevity, and even on him I'm lower than most people, but I think I will vote for him in the next round) and what I've read (mainly) in these threads about him in those threads convinced me that he deserves a vote, plus I think those 6 and draymond is the right top 7, even if it bothers me that draymond will go higher than kawhi in the sf ranking

Draymond's longevity is better than Kawhi's. He has four DPOY caliber years while Kawhi has a drop off after his two best years on defense in my opinion.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

DeBusschere is in.
I watched Knicks Lakers games again. The Knicks were supposed to be a great defensive team but I was not all that impressed with their defense except for Frazier. DeBuschere was less active than I expected but since there was less help no player is going to be a lot more active than the man they are guarding.

Knicks vs Lakers were not bending the illegal defense rules the way Celtics vs 76ers did in the early 1980s.
There was an upside to less help, less losing your man type defensive breakdowns.

My meaningless vote, McHale.

I watched some 76ers Celtics again and Celtics Hawks again. Watched McHale defend Dominque again.
McHale is impressive.
If the stats don't like McHale then the stats are wrong.
Stats before plus minus don't really measure individual defense.
Barkley said McHale was the best defender he faced.

[trex_8063]

Dave DeBusschere - 9 (SkyHookFTW, cecilthesheep, Samurai, kendogg, trex_8063, 70sFan, KnickFan33, Dr Positivity, lebron3-14-3)
Draymond Green - 3 (pandrade83, penbeast0, iggymcfrack)
Kevin McHale - 1 (SinceGatlingWasARookie)

I think I might be like 30 minutes early here, but DeBusschere's running away with this one and discussion has sort of dried up. So I'm calling it, and we'll move on.

[PigsOnTheWing]

Oh, just a bit late to get my vote in but it would've been for DeBusschere so nevermind .
However, trex, you've made a really great post expressing the actual defensive skills of him and I've also watched a part of that Bullets-Knicks game (I think you're referring to 1973 ECSF Game 1 clip) and I must agree with you that Dave looked more impressive than Hayes but obviously it's too tiny of a sample to make any sort of conclusion.
In the end, it's likely that DeBusschere in his prime was a better and more impactful defender than Hayes, but the latter still has a big advantage in longevity and this alone can justify voting for him; moreover Hayes' consistency was astonishing: he missed 9 RS games in 16 seasons!
Also, DeBusschere before the trade was basically a SF, at least by going with bkref positions, so Hayes has a bit of a positional advantage, which is a bit unfair but it's impossible to avoid such advantages for certain players when we group players into set and stiff positions.
Anyway, now that the most obvious ones have been placed, the field is much more open so I'll try to put some time into thinking who's the best choice for the next spot.

[trex_8063]

DeBusschere is in.
I watched Knicks Lakers games again. The Knicks were supposed to be a great defensive team but I was not all that impressed with their defense except for Frazier. DeBuschere was less active than I expected but since there was less help no player is going to be a lot more active than the man they are guarding.

See, I got a different impression regarding DeBusschere. Even in the video link you provided from G5 of the '70 Finals.....

He's tasked with guarding Baylor early on, and you can see in the first 2-3 defensive possessions shown: any time Baylor tries to move, DeBuscchere gets in his way, chesting up, won't let him get easily to his spot; also fights thru some screens and is generally playing some effective ball-denial. Baylor can't really even get a touch in those possessions. I'd also note he's in good box-out position on a couple of those.

1:13 - Baylor finally does get the ball off that long offensive rebound around this mark in the video, but can't find a shot (as the commentator says, he "...can't get free from DeBusschere").

1:38 - Reed has left Wilt to flash a double-team at the ball-handler, and although he ends up committing a foul, it's DeBusschere who makes the rotation to help, even though Bradley's closer. You can see DeBusschere inching toward Wilt slightly before the play happens, as though he could sense it (a show of his defensive intelligence). Bradley didn't seem to sense the play developing at all and makes no effort to rotate. And before Dave had started inching, Bradley was a good five feet closer to the play; even after Dave had inched over in anticipation, it still looks like Bradley was marginally closer (yet he still makes no effort).

1:58 - Although it's Reed who initially knocks the ball loose on the entry pass, DeBusschere is attentive and timely on the loose ball, coming up with the steal where it looks like it otherwise would have ultimately been recovered by Wilt [or a jump-ball at best].

2:20 - Baylor makes the shot, but DeBusschere couldn't have defended that much better without actually coming up with the block (and/or tipping the initial pass to Baylor). It was a high degree of difficulty shot that like would miss almost two out of three times (this just wasn't one of them).

2:48 - Another good box-out.

3:00 - Applying some ball-pressure away from the basket, and then another example of chesting up and interfering with his man's movement off-ball.

3:30 - Decent hustle back in transition, and he's the only guy to make a play at or contest the driver (Frazier is there but does nothing).

4:33 - There isn't an example in this video of DeBusschere losing track of his man off-ball, but here we have an example of him directing Frazier (who HAS momentarily lost track of his man off-ball). fwiw, this was one of my criticisms of Frazier, and why I wasn't supporting him as early as some. In other games I'd scouted, losing track of his man off-ball is something that happened with semi-regularity.

5:55 - This is just after Reed went down and was injured, the Lakers have a 5-on-4. It's DeBusschere who ties up Chamberlain for a jump-ball when he came shooting down the lane with no one to guard him.

7:05 - DeBusschere is now tasked with guarding Wilt Chamberlain (with Reed out), even though he's giving up 7" and who knows how much mass. Bradley decides to throw a double at Wilt in the post, though probably because he didn't realize his man had flashed to the baseline (his head is toward Wilt when the entry-pass came in). DeBusschere obviously can't leave Wilt until the pass is actually thrown, so he rotates to the ball pretty much as quickly as is humanly possible and makes a nice contest on the shot (not his man). Again, the shot went in, but not for any lack of effort, movement, or error on DeBusschere's part.

7:21 - He meets Wilt just below the FT-line, bodying him up hard to push him off his preferred spot. Continues to be shovey and physical in the post. When the ball is reversed, we see him shield Wilt from easily moving to the opposite side of the lane. Then has established nice box-out position (gets the rebound) on what ultimately was a 24-second violation.

7:45 - Another box-out (he does box-out fairly consistently).

8:00 - Giving Wilt a different look this time: knowing he has the weak-side help, he opts to front Wilt in the post. No entry pass is possible, and the Laker's end up turning it over (offensive foul on West).


I'll stop there, but you get the idea. Even from a partial scouting of this video I'm seeing quite a bit of effort/activity, a lot of physicality, evidence of solid defensive intelligence, and basically a near-zero rate on errors in this admittedly small sample.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

DeBusschere is in.
I watched Knicks Lakers games again. The Knicks were supposed to be a great defensive team but I was not all that impressed with their defense except for Frazier. DeBuschere was less active than I expected but since there was less help no player is going to be a lot more active than the man they are guarding.

See, I got a different impression regarding DeBusschere. Even in the video link you provided from G5 of the '70 Finals.....

He's tasked with guarding Baylor early on, and you can see in the first 2-3 defensive possessions shown: any time Baylor tries to move, DeBuscchere gets in his way, chesting up, won't let him get easily to his spot; also fights thru some screens and is generally playing some effective ball-denial. Baylor can't really even get a touch in those possessions. I'd also note he's in good box-out position on a couple of those.

1:13 - Baylor finally does get the ball off that long offensive rebound around this mark in the video, but can't find a shot (as the commentator says, he "...can't get free from DeBusschere").

1:38 - Reed has left Wilt to flash a double-team at the ball-handler, and although he ends up committing a foul, it's DeBusschere who makes the rotation to help, even though Bradley's closer. You can see DeBusschere inching toward Wilt slightly before the play happens, as though he could sense it (a show of his defensive intelligence). Bradley didn't seem to sense the play developing at all and makes no effort to rotate. And before Dave had started inching, Bradley was a good five feet closer to the play; even after Dave had inched over in anticipation, it still looks like Bradley was marginally closer (yet he still makes no effort).

1:58 - Although it's Reed who initially knocks the ball loose on the entry pass, DeBusschere is attentive and timely on the loose ball, coming up with the steal where it looks like it otherwise would have ultimately been recovered by Wilt [or a jump-ball at best].

2:20 - Baylor makes the shot, but DeBusschere couldn't have defended that much better without actually coming up with the block (and/or tipping the initial pass to Baylor). It was a high degree of difficulty shot that like would miss almost two out of three times (this just wasn't one of them).

2:48 - Another good box-out.

3:00 - Applying some ball-pressure away from the basket, and then another example of chesting up and interfering with his man's movement off-ball.

3:30 - Decent hustle back in transition, and he's the only guy to make a play at or contest the driver (Frazier is there but does nothing).

4:33 - There isn't an example in this video of DeBusschere losing track of his man off-ball, but here we have an example of him directing Frazier (who HAS momentarily lost track of his man off-ball). fwiw, this was one of my criticisms of Frazier, and why I wasn't supporting him as early as some. In other games I'd scouted, losing track of his man off-ball is something that happened with semi-regularity.

5:55 - This is just after Reed went down and was injured, the Lakers have a 5-on-4. It's DeBusschere who ties up Chamberlain for a jump-ball when he came shooting down the lane with no one to guard him.

7:05 - DeBusschere is now tasked with guarding Wilt Chamberlain (with Reed out), even though he's giving up 7" and who knows how much mass. Bradley decides to throw a double at Wilt in the post, though probably because he didn't realize his man had flashed to the baseline (his head is toward Wilt when the entry-pass came in). DeBusschere obviously can't leave Wilt until the pass is actually thrown, so he rotates to the ball pretty much as quickly as is humanly possible and makes a nice contest on the shot (not his man). Again, the shot went in, but not for any lack of effort, movement, or error on DeBusschere's part.

7:21 - He meets Wilt just below the FT-line, bodying him up hard to push him off his preferred spot. Continues to be shovey and physical in the post. When the ball is reversed, we see him shield Wilt from easily moving to the opposite side of the lane. Then has established nice box-out position (gets the rebound) on what ultimately was a 24-second violation.

7:45 - Another box-out (he does box-out fairly consistently).

8:00 - Giving Wilt a different look this time: knowing he has the weak-side help, he opts to front Wilt in the post. No entry pass is possible, and the Laker's end up turning it over (offensive foul on West).


I'll stop there, but you get the idea. Even from a partial scouting of this video I'm seeing quite a bit of effort/activity, a lot of physicality, evidence of solid defensive intelligence, and basically a near-zero rate on errors in this admittedly small sample.

Noticing DeBuschere directing Frazier was quite observant.
DeBuschere isn't inactive but I don't see that level of activity as being out out of the ordinary. I would say Draymond appears more active, but the times have changed. If Draymond gets out of position somebody will cover for Draymond.

Also it isn't Debushere's fault that Baylor did not run DeBuschere through more traffic. Once DeBuschere is on Wilt staying with his man became even more important. In that era where they can't expect teammates to pick up their man when they gamble with help defense, they really should not be be giving much help anyway. You did catch DeBuschere picking up Bradley's man after Bradley doubled Wilt.

In the games I watched recently DeBuschere came over to give help a few times when it was too late. That still counts as hustle.

The last DeBuschere game I watched was vs the 1973 Celtics. That game was a little faster off the ball. One Bit of DeBuschere activity that surprised me was twice in that game DeBuschere stepped out of bounds while harassing Silas's inbounds passes and DeBuschere was not called. That was active.

I also watched some 1981 76ers vs Celtics at the same night that I watched a DeBushere game.. That was really fast and players had to be very active but players were losing their men a lot.