Hunt For An ARIZAnable - Trade is OUBRE! - Final Poll results

[AtheJ415]

No offense, but I hope Melton ends up a hell of a lot better than Avery Bradley, who is a tremendously awful offensive player and an overrated defender, and has been for most of his career. He shouldn't even be playing on that LAC team right now.

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself

Yeah, he was a solid 3&D guy for a good 5 years, his worst year in that stretch shooting just over 35% from 3, but twice at 39% or over, and was solid defensively too, with a good DRTG, and making All Defensive Teams twice...one first team and one second team..having great on ball and team defense. He just didn't have great counting stats that stuff like DBPM and DRPM are based on like blocks, steals, and they even count rebounding.

He just really dropped off when he joined the Clippers. I don't ever see Melton shooting that well from 3 overall and would be surprised if he ever makes all defensive teams. Unless he really improves offensively I don't see him as a capable long term starter, even on an avg team.

He was literally one of the worst offensive guards in the league, and his D numbers were not great (they were merely good), even not accounting for counting stats. His BPM was terrible and positive once over his best 5 year span. Sorry, but he played on a good team, and numbers that bad do not happen for somebody's entire career sans 1 year on a good team when they are legit. You can look well beyond DBPM or DRPM, and his other numbers were terrible, and his DRtg in his best year is barely better than Melton's rookie year. His ORtg was putrid, despite the good 3 point shooting. He compares, in his best year, to Ronnie Price from 2015-2016. I mean, there's no getting around it. His numbers are TERRIBLE.

When you have to go to player awards, which have ridiculous crap like Kobe getting all defensive team for his entire career when he stoppped defending his last 7 years in the league, and with Shawn Marion getting 2nd in DPOY but missing the entire 1st team all NBA in the same season, it loses all credibility. It's like counting an all-star appearance as 1 player being better than another.

[AtheJ415]

Melton hasn't played that well as a rookie. He has a 9.8 PER and a TS% of 47%. His defense is average, though it looks superb since the rest of our team is horrid at defense outside of Bridges, and sometimes Holmes. Jackson has improved a bit defensively, but his offense is even worse than Melton's somehow.

Well, you said Avery Bradley was solid above. Avery Bradley's has a career PER of 11.4 and a TS% of 51.3. He has a usage higher than Melton's right now, and despite that has an assist % of 9.9 compared to Melton's 20+%. Bradley has a career MINUS 0.6 DBPM. His career DRtg is a 107, barely better than Melton's 110, which you called average.

Let's look at Bradley's rookie year, shall we?

PER of 2.2, TS% of 36%, and is drastically worse than Melton at every single metric outside of free throw rate and turnover % (by very little).

I vehemently disagree that Melton's ceiling is somehow lower than Bradley's, which is not saying much frankly because Bradley's prime was barely even positive. But more than that, Melton passes all of the athletic tests you could want. The only thing he lacked in this draft was experience and a jumper. He has fixed his motion, and improved from his college stroke, but it is a process. I don't see any reason he can't raise his 3 point shooting from 34.1% to 36+%. That is not really a leap given it is a new release to begin with.

[Maze]

Listening to sports radio today and the Blazer pre game stuff came on. They were saying Doncic was the "obvious first pick" and that he's by far the best pick of the draft. I mean not even a squeak about Ayton. I'm not taking anything away from Doncic because I think hes an amazing talent and will only get better, I just feel like its a bit of injustice to Ayton with the numbers hes putting up that only can be topped in the last 30 years by the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq and maybe a couple others I've left out.

Because he fits the the prototype of today and tomorrow's offense initiator. There's way more value in being able to create for the team and for yourself from scratch, hit the 3 and play off the ball. Versatility is the key word and Luka has that in excess. And the whole comparing Aytons numbers to bigs of all is a bit pointless because those guys were far far better in their rookie season. Hakeem averaged like
21/12/3blks, Shaq put up 23/14/3.5blks and Robinson put up 24/12/4. Those guys were dominant in more ways that Ayton has yet to show. Yeah those guys were older when they came in and perhaps Ayton can put up those offensive numbers in year 2 or 3 but 17/11 just doesn't stand out especially with sub par defense. If he's a year or two away from true positional dominance then Luka is further along than narrative than Ayton.

The narrative is clearly on Luka's side but if you look at how they contribute to the team, Luka is just far more important

I think Ayton could match Olajuwon's offensive numbers if we actually ran plays for him & fed the post.

[Kerrsed]

Spoiler:

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

Josh Jackson for DSJ.

Add the Mil pick if needed.

[lilfishi22]

I do think Ayton is underutilized offensively and it doesn't just mean force feeding him looks in the post. When I say underutilized, it's partly due to the talent of this team in enabling his offense more but it's also Igor purposefully being deliberate with his offensive develop.

I seriously think if we had a better PnR ball-handler (Booker is very average imo), Ayton could easily get another 2ppg at the same efficiency. That would take him to near 20ppg. Then if our guys made quicker decisions and better passes into the post, that's another 1-2ppg. Then if combine more aggressiveness from him, that's another 2 trips to the line which is at least 1ppg. So I don't think 20-22ppg to finish the rookie year is out of the question.

He has a lot of areas where he can still develop like his boxing out (he's inproving for sure), being more aggressive offensively and of course just recognising offensive plays so he can get to spots earlier defensively. I've seen good improvements from him that I thought would take a full summer + training camp to get better in so I'm happy with his progress so far.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Read on Twitter

Josh Jackson for DSJ.

Add the Mil pick if needed.

I'm so down on Jackson that sure I'd do that.

Overall I'm a little mixed on DSJ. I like the idea of him running pick and roll with ayton, that could be great. But he kind of worries me in general, seems like a high usage dude who's not really a pure floor general and doesn't give good effort on D. On the suns I'm not sure on the general fit either, he's gonna be a high usage guy and booker, Warren and ayton all need pretty high usage to be effective and are all more efficient than DJS. So you might end up cutting a little of their usage and getting worse results because of it.

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[bwgood77]

Listening to sports radio today and the Blazer pre game stuff came on. They were saying Doncic was the "obvious first pick" and that he's by far the best pick of the draft. I mean not even a squeak about Ayton. I'm not taking anything away from Doncic because I think hes an amazing talent and will only get better, I just feel like its a bit of injustice to Ayton with the numbers hes putting up that only can be topped in the last 30 years by the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq and maybe a couple others I've left out.

Because he fits the the prototype of today and tomorrow's offense initiator. There's way more value in being able to create for the team and for yourself from scratch, hit the 3 and play off the ball. Versatility is the key word and Luka has that in excess. And the whole comparing Aytons numbers to bigs of all is a bit pointless because those guys were far far better in their rookie season. Hakeem averaged like
21/12/3blks, Shaq put up 23/14/3.5blks and Robinson put up 24/12/4. Those guys were dominant in more ways that Ayton has yet to show. Yeah those guys were older when they came in and perhaps Ayton can put up those offensive numbers in year 2 or 3 but 17/11 just doesn't stand out especially with sub par defense. If he's a year or two away from true positional dominance then Luka is further along than narrative than Ayton.

The narrative is clearly on Luka's side but if you look at how they contribute to the team, Luka is just far more important

How many of the "Great Rookie Centers" came into the league with an established offensive weapon like Booker though on their teams? How many of them had two 20 ppg scorers (Booker and Warren) already established on those teams?

I'm not saying that Ayton is better then any of them, but he's also not instantly Option #1 every time he steps on the court.

He should be the #1 option. He seems to be very willing to make the right pass if heavily guarded. Booker will much of the time but not in crunch time. I still think Ayton would, and Ayton is far more efficient. Ayton isn't nearly as dominating as those Cs were though, but then again, Robinson played 4 years in college I think, Hakeem at least a couple and I think Shaq a couple. Ayton is as old as Shaq was but Shaq wanted to destroy the league. All those guys wanted to be shut down centers though and protect the rim and not let anyone get easy baskets.

[bwgood77]

Melton hasn't played that well as a rookie. He has a 9.8 PER and a TS% of 47%. His defense is average, though it looks superb since the rest of our team is horrid at defense outside of Bridges, and sometimes Holmes. Jackson has improved a bit defensively, but his offense is even worse than Melton's somehow.

Well, you said Avery Bradley was solid above. Avery Bradley's has a career PER of 11.4 and a TS% of 51.3. He has a usage higher than Melton's right now, and despite that has an assist % of 9.9 compared to Melton's 20+%. Bradley has a career MINUS 0.6 DBPM. His career DRtg is a 107, barely better than Melton's 110, which you called average.

Let's look at Bradley's rookie year, shall we?

PER of 2.2, TS% of 36%, and is drastically worse than Melton at every single metric outside of free throw rate and turnover % (by very little).

I vehemently disagree that Melton's ceiling is somehow lower than Bradley's, which is not saying much frankly because Bradley's prime was barely even positive. But more than that, Melton passes all of the athletic tests you could want. The only thing he lacked in this draft was experience and a jumper. He has fixed his motion, and improved from his college stroke, but it is a process. I don't see any reason he can't raise his 3 point shooting from 34.1% to 36+%. That is not really a leap given it is a new release to begin with.

I don't really care about crappy DBPM stats you like to use. Those are counting stats, as are PER and are impacted by rebounds, blocks and steals, not real defense. These are outdated simple stats, not much more than looking at the box score.

If you want to use b-ref, why don't you take a look at the guy you always say sucks because he can't shoot and you play 4 on 5 on offense with him, Marcus Smart? Here is his comparison to Melton....a 53.5% TS% to Melton's 47%....DRTG 103 to Melton's 110...ORTG 114 to Melton's 90...so Net Rtg of +11 to Melton's -20...since you love DBPM, a 2.1 to Melton's .3.

http://bkref.com/tiny/2Coob

I'm not even a huge Smart fan (was a huge fan in college though) but if I would be ok with a guy that couldn't shoot and wanted superb defense, I'd take Smart every day.

I don't even like Bradley but he was a solid defender and pretty good shooter for a 5 year stretch (until he got injured and got to the Clippers)...a 3D guy...but didn't rebound, block shots or get steals. Your DBPM leaders are almost exclusively centers due to rebounding and blocks being so heavily weighted...Westbrook is there too...I think leading this year because he gets a ton of rebounds (10.8) and steals (2.6) but no one thinks he's the best defender in the NBA, or much of a great defender at all...he gambles a lot and loves his rebounds...but also on the list, Jokic, Vucevic, etc...the fact is you are never going to have much of a DBPM if you don't get a lot of rebounds or a lot of blocks or steals quite a bit of at least 2 of the 3.

DBPM is not really showing how good of a defender you are...unless you strictly judge that on rebounds, blocks and steals...but rebounds impact it so heavily that not a lot of non bigs make the list unless they rebound a lot...or get a lot of blocks AND steals or are quite a bit above average in all 3 (Kyle Anderson).

[bwgood77]

Melton hasn't played that well as a rookie. He has a 9.8 PER and a TS% of 47%. His defense is average, though it looks superb since the rest of our team is horrid at defense outside of Bridges, and sometimes Holmes. Jackson has improved a bit defensively, but his offense is even worse than Melton's somehow.

Well, you said Avery Bradley was solid above. Avery Bradley's has a career PER of 11.4 and a TS% of 51.3. He has a usage higher than Melton's right now, and despite that has an assist % of 9.9 compared to Melton's 20+%. Bradley has a career MINUS 0.6 DBPM. His career DRtg is a 107, barely better than Melton's 110, which you called average.

Let's look at Bradley's rookie year, shall we?

PER of 2.2, TS% of 36%, and is drastically worse than Melton at every single metric outside of free throw rate and turnover % (by very little).

I vehemently disagree that Melton's ceiling is somehow lower than Bradley's, which is not saying much frankly because Bradley's prime was barely even positive. But more than that, Melton passes all of the athletic tests you could want. The only thing he lacked in this draft was experience and a jumper. He has fixed his motion, and improved from his college stroke, but it is a process. I don't see any reason he can't raise his 3 point shooting from 34.1% to 36+%. That is not really a leap given it is a new release to begin with.

I didn't say Melton's ceiling is less than Bradley's. I said I doubt he shoots as well from 3 as Bradley did over that 5 year stretch or makes 1st or 2nd all defensive teams. I see you've stated that you don't think these teams are accurate because Kobe was on it or whatever, but using him as an example, if he got on and shouldn't have, which wouldn't be surprising, it's likely due to popularity, not something that you can say for Avery Bradley.

Anyway, I've never wanted Avery Bradley and I think Melton can be a solid defender and decent bench player to play in spurs for defensive purposes. If he learns to shoot that would be an enormous plus but he's really unplayable right now..only really plays because he is on the Suns and our current PG situation is far from ideal to say the least...and he obviously has always turned the ball over a ton.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

Josh Jackson for DSJ.

Add the Mil pick if needed.

I'm so down on Jackson that sure I'd do that.

Overall I'm a little mixed on DSJ. I like the idea of him running pick and roll with ayton, that could be great. But he kind of worries me in general, seems like a high usage dude who's not really a pure floor general and doesn't give good effort on D. On the suns I'm not sure on the general fit either, he's gonna be a high usage guy and booker, Warren and ayton all need pretty high usage to be effective and are all more efficient than DJS. So you might end up cutting a little of their usage and getting worse results because of it.

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Here are some videos clips done by Dirk from the Mavs board...if people want to see some of his play...just short clips of plays if you click on them...

He is #1

Man. If he keeps it up...

Let me get this out of the way. You can watch this over and over and over.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Game is definitely looking like it's slowing down. He is seeing the floor well and making good passes when he pushes the pace.

Another great assist from under the basket to the corner

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Not really sure what he did here.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Steal+dunk

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Effort

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

[AtheJ415]

I could get behind a DSJ trade, but I think we'd need to already know our plan for the offseason. The only PG in the draft where we will be selecting who might be worth the pick is Morant. Jones really needs to be putting feelers out there for offseason acquisitions. Is DLo available? If so, for how much? Is there a PF we can get for our cap space (Mirotic? Harris as a longshot?)? I really think we have to keep Holmes, but we can get a wink wink deal with him and go over after filling holes elsewhere.

We really need to know which direction we plan on going and who would be interested in joining Phx at the 1 and 4 in FA.

[Young gun 6]

I think people are forgetting the Brad Stevens effect.

Avery Bradley has looked trash for the Clippers. Even a lot of clips fans themselves have said his defense has been utter garbage, like below average and that’s combined with a known quantity of zero offense.

Brad Stevens strong defensive game plan inflates players individual defense, see Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley and probably Smart/Rozier as well if they left Boston.

Bradley should be in his peak yet his absolute trash right now and I can’t see him becoming close to what he was in Boston here in Phoenix.

For the comparison that Melton should aim for, yeah Bradley in Boston is one but it would be nice to see him have a comparison of a strong guard defender who isn’t inflated by that one nba system.

I think a good aim for Melton is a Cory Joesph style player or Ricky Rubio.

[Mjee]

Spoiler:

Omg I lovvvvvvveeeeeee this

[Mjee]

Somebody please tweet this to KD

[stoo]

I could get behind a DSJ trade, but I think we'd need to already know our plan for the offseason. The only PG in the draft where we will be selecting who might be worth the pick is Morant. Jones really needs to be putting feelers out there for offseason acquisitions. Is DLo available? If so, for how much? Is there a PF we can get for our cap space (Mirotic? Harris as a longshot?)? I really think we have to keep Holmes, but we can get a wink wink deal with him and go over after filling holes elsewhere.

We really need to know which direction we plan on going and who would be interested in joining Phx at the 1 and 4 in FA.

If you asume by "WE" - US on the forum, I am not sure if that's really a need. More of a wish. If you think PHO front office, I believe they know

[bwgood77]

I think people are forgetting the Brad Stevens effect.

Avery Bradley has looked trash for the Clippers. Even a lot of clips fans themselves have said his defense has been utter garbage, like below average and that’s combined with a known quantity of zero offense.

Brad Stevens strong defensive game plan inflates players individual defense, see Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley and probably Smart/Rozier as well if they left Boston.

Bradley should be in his peak yet his absolute trash right now and I can’t see him becoming close to what he was in Boston here in Phoenix.

For the comparison that Melton should aim for, yeah Bradley in Boston is one but it would be nice to see him have a comparison of a strong guard defender who isn’t inflated by that one nba system.

I think a good aim for Melton is a Cory Joesph style player or Ricky Rubio.

Yeah, Bradley has sucked since getting to the Clippers but he got injured last season right after getting there and was out for the season, and has never looked the same since.

[Bogyo]

I liked DSJ in the draft and last year as well. Haven't really paid attention to him this year. If he is active on D and doesn't have a turnover problem, and can make an entry pass I would easily trade JJ or Oubre (plus the Mil pick or our 2nd rounder if really needed) for him. That of course would also mean that we might not be in the last 4 by the end of the season, and we'd have less pinpong balls for Zion... And I don't really think we should (will?) take another wing (the other 3 consensus top picks) next year.
But I'm all for starting winning with this group, finding the right type of (role) players next to Book/Ayton. I believe TJ/Mikal/Holmes are 3 very solid ones, one of JJ/Oubre will be good. If DSJ is a player who could be on TJs or Mikals level as a player/impact maker at the PG position we should go for it asap, and worry about the draft and everything else later, as we add another piece to the puzzle.

[Bogyo]

Spoiler:

Omg I lovvvvvvveeeeeee this

He was pissed when people called him a snake, now we re picturing him as a rat?


(just joking, but i found it pretty funny when i though of it )

[bwgood77]

I liked DSJ in the draft and last year as well. Haven't really paid attention to him this year. If he is active on D and doesn't have a turnover problem, and can make an entry pass I would easily trade JJ or Oubre (plus the Mil pick or our 2nd rounder if really needed) for him. That of course would also mean that we might not be in the last 4 by the end of the season, and we'd have less pinpong balls for Zion... And I don't really think we should (will?) take another wing (the other 3 consensus top picks) next year.
But I'm all for starting winning with this group, finding the right type of (role) players next to Book/Ayton. I believe TJ/Mikal/Holmes are 3 very solid ones, one of JJ/Oubre will be good. If DSJ is a player who could be on TJs or Mikals level as a player/impact maker at the PG position we should go for it asap, and worry about the draft and everything else later, as we add another piece to the puzzle.

I'm not sure I see them trading him, but yes, I'd easily trade JJ or Oubre and the Bucks pick for him. He is a pretty good defender. You can see in those clips some nice plays and sticking with his guy and his hustle and hops. The numbers show is problem is more on offense than defense, which you might have expected. His assists have dropped, obviously in large part due to Doncic, but his shooting has improved since last year where it was really bad. Still not great, or even very good, but seeing the improvement from last year, the trend should continue.

But, like I said, I'd be a little surprised if they trade him unless they don't think his health will hold up. Carlisle likes to have like 4 to 5 point guards and to often play two at once.