2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[getrichordie]

Would giving Noel more minutes with the starters be a bad thing?

It all depends on match ups. I think there are some cases where it would make sense but it’s not going to make sense to do that all the time.

If we are playing against a team that has an elite post-up scorer (Embiid, Vucevic, Jokic, Nurkic), Noel could struggle.

But overall, I think running more offense through Adams in the second unit is something that could have merit. If Adams can do that, it would force the opposing coach’s hand in a way that could be a net positive for the team.

But the major underlying issue on our team still stands: wing depth. You know your wing depth is bad when you are asking Schroder/Westbrook lineups to compensate for the lack of a competent 2-way wing.

Another thing that I would like to point out (warning: here’s a grenade being thrown into a crowded room!) is that Westbrook has not been giving the ball up as much as he should be. When Schroder is out there, why isn’t Westbrook letting Schroder see if he can get into rhythm? I mean... when Westbrook is going 6/20, you have to look at other sources of scoring unless you just want to keep on losing. I would like to see Westbrook make that change.


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[ThunderBolt]

Would giving Noel more minutes with the starters be a bad thing?

It all depends on match ups. I think there are some cases where it would make sense but it’s not going to make sense to do that all the time.

If we are playing against a team that has an elite post-up scorer (Embiid, Vucevic, Jokic, Nurkic), Noel could struggle.

But overall, I think running more offense through Adams in the second unit is something that could have merit. If Adams can do that, it would force the opposing coach’s hand in a way that could be a net positive for the team.

But the major underlying issue on our team still stands: wing depth. You know your wing depth is bad when you are asking Schroder/Westbrook lineups to compensate for the lack of a competent 2-way wing.

Another thing that I would like to point out (warning: here’s a grenade being thrown into a crowded room!) is that Westbrook has not been giving the ball up as much as he should be. When Schroder is out there, why isn’t Westbrook letting Schroder see if he can get into rhythm? I mean... when Westbrook is going 6/20, you have to look at other sources of scoring unless you just want to keep on losing. I would like to see Westbrook make that change.


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The point is to lessen adams minutes not swap the units he and Noel play with. Noel is playing 14mpg and Adams 33.6 mpg. It seems reasonable to get Noel another 5mts or so with the starters and let adams not be gassed at the end of the game and end of season like we've frequently seen.

[getrichordie]

Would giving Noel more minutes with the starters be a bad thing?

It all depends on match ups. I think there are some cases where it would make sense but it’s not going to make sense to do that all the time.

If we are playing against a team that has an elite post-up scorer (Embiid, Vucevic, Jokic, Nurkic), Noel could struggle.

But overall, I think running more offense through Adams in the second unit is something that could have merit. If Adams can do that, it would force the opposing coach’s hand in a way that could be a net positive for the team.

But the major underlying issue on our team still stands: wing depth. You know your wing depth is bad when you are asking Schroder/Westbrook lineups to compensate for the lack of a competent 2-way wing.

Another thing that I would like to point out (warning: here’s a grenade being thrown into a crowded room!) is that Westbrook has not been giving the ball up as much as he should be. When Schroder is out there, why isn’t Westbrook letting Schroder see if he can get into rhythm? I mean... when Westbrook is going 6/20, you have to look at other sources of scoring unless you just want to keep on losing. I would like to see Westbrook make that change.


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The point is to lessen adams minutes not swap the units he and Noel play with. Noel is playing 14mpg and Adams 33.6 mpg. It seems reasonable to get Noel another 5mts or so with the starters and let adams not be gassed at the end of the game and end of season like we've frequently seen.

Well, if that’s the point, then I’m fine with that but we are probably going to be worse because of it. Adams’ heavy minutes is a big part of why we’ve been able to win close games.


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[Pillendreher]

Adams’ heavy minutes is a big part of why we’ve been able to win close games.

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

[slick_watts]

Adams’ heavy minutes is a big part of why we’ve been able to win close games.

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

jokic, nurkic, vucevic, gobert, lopez, horford-- all play 30 min a game or less. adams, drummond, m. gasol, towns, embiid are the outliers.

adams has played < 30 minutes in only four games this year.

[getrichordie]

Adams’ heavy minutes is a big part of why we’ve been able to win close games.

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

It’s probably both a factor in why we lose close games and win close ones. As Bondom likes to say, and I agree, Adams’ offensive rebounding has been a godsend with Russ out there. The problem is we NEED his offensive rebounding, screens, and rim-running with Russ out there. That’s been the formula to compensate for Russ’ highly inefficient offense and it’s been working.

Adams isn’t the problem here. Russ’ inefficient offense and our lack of a competent 2 are the most glaring issues for this team. I know some of you don’t want to hear that but it’s the truth.

This Adams thing is just a symptom of the larger issue.

Kudos to Adams for compensating for Russ, but it’s not a sustainable formula.

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[Pillendreher]

Adams’ heavy minutes is a big part of why we’ve been able to win close games.

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

jokic, nurkic, vucevic, gobert, lopez, horford-- all play 30 min a game or less. adams, drummond, m. gasol, towns, embiid are the outliers.

adams has played < 30 minutes in only four games this year.

I never really paid attention to this until a couple of weeks ago. I was listenting to a podcast - can't remember which one - where they talked about the fact that very few Centers actually play that many minutes (I think they were talking about Embiid and his minutes).

[getrichordie]

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

jokic, nurkic, vucevic, gobert, lopez, horford-- all play 30 min a game or less. adams, drummond, m. gasol, towns, embiid are the outliers.

adams has played < 30 minutes in only four games this year.

I never really paid attention to this until a couple of weeks ago. I was listenting to a podcast - can't remember which one - where they talked about the fact that very few Centers actually play that many minutes (I think they were talking about Embiid and his minutes).

Yeah, dude. Adams has been having to bust his ass because we miss so many shots. If he doesn’t do that, we don’t win games. Same thing with George. George has been sucking up all of those would-be bad shots and turning them into good ones.


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[slick_watts]

If anything I'd say his heavy minutes have been a part of why we've been losing those games lately. Adams plays a very physical style of play. It stands to reason that playing 34+ minutes in games on a regular basis is going to wear him down, especially at the end of games.

jokic, nurkic, vucevic, gobert, lopez, horford-- all play 30 min a game or less. adams, drummond, m. gasol, towns, embiid are the outliers.

adams has played < 30 minutes in only four games this year.

I never really paid attention to this until a couple of weeks ago. I was listenting to a podcast - can't remember which one - where they talked about the fact that very few Centers actually play that many minutes (I think they were talking about Embiid and his minutes).

considering modern pnr coverage and defensive style it's probably for the best. my favorite example of this is joakim noah. bulls were famous for icing the pnr and noah's activity on the pnr is similar to what adams does now. his two all star years he was over 35 mpg (after never playing much more than 30 beforehand), and he was washed by 28-29 years old. lots of c's could play big minutes when the gameplan was park in the paint and block shots. now with so many c out on the perimeter defensively, it's murder.

adams is a big dude and playing all those minutes on his frame, the way he plays, is gonna have short and long term effects imo.

[getrichordie]

Schroder + George + Westbrook lineup #s over past 10 games (per 100):

FGMs/FGAs

George = 12.7 / 24.7 (51.4%)
Westbrook = 7.8 / 20.1 (38.6%)
Schroder = 6.4 / 13.4 (47.4%)
Grant = 8.3 / 11.7 (70.4%) !!!!
Adams = 7.1 / 13.8 (51.4%)

AST/TOV

just looking at our main ball-handlers here

George = 4.6 / 3.5
Westbrook = 10.2 / 3.9
Schroder = 4.6 / 1.1

Westbrook needs to give Schroder the ball more in these lineups. Someone convince me I’m wrong because I think this is just another textbook case of Westbrook trying to do more than he really should be. If I were Schroder, I would find it frustrating to watch that kind of performance while you just stand idly by calling for the ball and waiting for the pass.

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[Pillendreher]

Westbrook needs to give Schroder the ball more in these lineups. Someone convince me I’m wrong because I think this is just another textbook case of Westbrook trying to do more than he really should be.

No, he should not. Westbrook standing around, watching the play, is useless.

If I were Schroder, I would find it frustrating to watch that kind of performance while you just stand idly by calling for the ball and waiting for the pass.

If I were Schröder, I would count myself lucky to be on a contender and not stuck with a lottery team somewhere playing for 15 wins. The Thunder are dragging Schröder along despite his underwhelming play as a shot creator. Don't get this twisted.

[getrichordie]

Westbrook needs to give Schroder the ball more in these lineups. Someone convince me I’m wrong because I think this is just another textbook case of Westbrook trying to do more than he really should be.

No, he should not. Westbrook standing around, watching the play, is useless.

If I were Schroder, I would find it frustrating to watch that kind of performance while you just stand idly by calling for the ball and waiting for the pass.

If I were Schröder, I would count myself lucky to be on a contender and not stuck with a lottery team somewhere playing for 15 wins. The Thunder are dragging Schröder along despite his underwhelming play as a shot creator. Don't get this twisted.

True, Schroder should feel lucky. But he can also be frustrated at the same time.

Schroder standing around watching the play is useless as well. I understand it’s hard to see it from an objective view, but Russ’ catch and shoot game has shown flashes and I’d rather Schroder handle the ball a little bit more with Russ out there. He’s committing way less turnovers and he’s hitting way more of his shots and he’s still finding assists.

I’m simply saying there needs to be more balance there. What Westbrook has been doing in these lineups isn’t working. It’s not optimal. If you were to put the ball in Schroder’s hands a little bit more and take the ball out of Westbrook’s hands a little bit more in these line ups, I would argue that you are closer to optimizing this lineup.

Schroder is the better FT shooter too so if he gets fouled, that’s more efficiency right there.




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[Mattv]

Would giving Noel more minutes with the starters be a bad thing?

I wouldn't mind it.

I think they should and let Adam's run the pick a role with Schroder and Also give Adam's the ball in the post more with Ferguson and Diallo cutting to the basket.

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[getrichordie]

Would giving Noel more minutes with the starters be a bad thing?

I wouldn't mind it.

I think they should and let Adam's run the pick a role with Schroder and Also give Adam's the ball in the post more with Ferguson and Diallo cutting to the basket.

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Yeah, but you are going to lose a lot of rebounding in 1st unit. And Ferguson and Diallo cutting doesn’t exactly inspire confidence here. Defenses are sagging off of both of them anyway.


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[Mattv]

I wouldn't mind it.

I think they should and let Adam's run the pick a role with Schroder and Also give Adam's the ball in the post more with Ferguson and Diallo cutting to the basket.

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Yeah, but you are going to lose a lot of rebounding in 1st unit. And Ferguson and Diallo cutting doesn’t exactly inspire confidence here. Defenses are sagging off of both of them anyway.


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Adam's has been good when the double teams come at finding someone cutting theres not to many 2nd unit bigs that could guard him 1 on 1 there hardly any cutting in the first unit unless Ferg is in.Im not saying Start Noel over Adam's just give Adam's a little time with the 2nd unit and see how it goes.

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[Pillendreher]

Schroder standing around watching the play is useless as well.

But it's less detrimental than taking Russ off the ball. I know he's not close to being himself right now, but in a vacuum Westbrook is still much, much better as an on-ball-player than Schröder. You lose way more if you take the ball out of Westbrook's hands, especially since Schröder is not setting the world on fire with his playmaking either.

I understand it’s hard to see it from an objective view, but Russ’ catch and shoot game has shown flashes

In what way? The only Thunder players with a worse eFG% on catch and shoot FGA than Westbrook are Diallo and Felton.

and I’d rather Schroder handle the ball a little bit more with Russ out there. He’s committing way less turnovers and he’s hitting way more of his shots and he’s still finding assists.

This is what I mean with dragging Schröder along: His USG% with said lineup since the Detroit game is 13 %. That's Pattrick Patterson' level of offensive involvement. And even though the Thunder have been talking about having a "ball handler" on the floor, Schröder is well below his career average assist wise in that lineup (almost 10 per 100 as a career average, 4 in that lineup). So if he's not shooting and not passing because his role is greatly recuded, why is he out there? It can't be for defensive reasons.

I’m simply saying there needs to be more balance there. What Westbrook has been doing in these lineups isn’t working.

A 118.9 ORtG for that lineup begs to differ. Even though he has not been able to score, Westbrook has managed to still be a decent enough playmaker, being responsible for half the points created per assist of that lineup during the timespan you refereced. Paul George has matched the amount of points Schröder has created in that lineup even though Schröder is supposed to be a 2nd point guard.

[slick_watts]

So if he's not shooting and not passing because his role is greatly recuded, why is he out there?

[getrichordie]

Schroder standing around watching the play is useless as well.

But it's less detrimental than taking Russ off the ball. I know he's not close to being himself right now, but in a vacuum Westbrook is still much, much better as an on-ball-player than Schröder. You lose way more if you take the ball out of Westbrook's hands, especially since Schröder is not setting the world on fire with his playmaking either.

I understand it’s hard to see it from an objective view, but Russ’ catch and shoot game has shown flashes

In what way? The only Thunder players with a worse eFG% on catch and shoot FGA than Westbrook are Diallo and Felton.

and I’d rather Schroder handle the ball a little bit more with Russ out there. He’s committing way less turnovers and he’s hitting way more of his shots and he’s still finding assists.

This is what I mean with dragging Schröder along: His USG% with said lineup since the Detroit game is 13 %. That's Pattrick Patterson' level of offensive involvement. And even though the Thunder have been talking about having a "ball handler" on the floor, Schröder is well below his career average assist wise in that lineup (almost 10 per 100 as a career average, 4 in that lineup). So if he's not shooting and not passing because his role is greatly recuded, why is he out there? It can't be for defensive reasons.

I’m simply saying there needs to be more balance there. What Westbrook has been doing in these lineups isn’t working.

A 118.9 ORtG for that lineup begs to differ. Even though he has not been able to score, Westbrook has managed to still be a decent enough playmaker, being responsible for half the points created per assist of that lineup during the timespan you refereced. Paul George has matched the amount of points Schröder has created in that lineup even though Schröder is supposed to be a 2nd point guard.

If Westbrook can show the he can still be Beastbrook, I will concede my point and agree with you. But he has not shown that as of yet and I’m skeptical that he can show us that again.

I’ve been saying Westbrook is going to slow down since the end of his MVP season because of the amount of minutes he’s played on an NBA floor. But that’s another discussion.

It seems to me that Schroder’s only real function in those lineups is to mitigate Westbrook’s role. Another way of putting it is that Schroder is there to give Westbrook a break on ball-handling/play-making duties.

Outside of Westbrook setting up Adams for easy buckets, what else is he really doing on offense? Yeah, we can give him credit for making the easy pass to PG coming off a screen to knock down a bucket, but any point guard in the league can make that pass.

So, again, I ask... besides Westbrook setting up Adams for buckets by executing P&Rs with Adams at a good level, what else is he doing?


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[getrichordie]

So if he's not shooting and not passing because his role is greatly recuded, why is he out there?

Why do you think Schroder is out there in these lineups, slick?


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[slick_watts]

So if he's not shooting and not passing because his role is greatly recuded, why is he out there?

Why do you think Schroder is out there in these lineups, slick?


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uh. because he was promised a role. that was the point of the .gif.