#1 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defensively at each position project

[trex_8063]

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Wilt Chamberlain
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Nate Thurmond
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
[/b]



Hi guys

Spoiler:

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

.

.

a

a

a

I'

a

.

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

[

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

/

/

[/quote]

[70sFan]

This is Russell without much doubts. I'd like to see what RealGMers will say about that, but it's unlikely that I'll change my vote.

Bill Russell

[Texas Chuck]

This is a great project I've enjoyed reading through. I don't want to interfere, but if ever there was a lock Bill Russell should be it. I think the real interesting debate starts at 2.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

With Russell you need to knock Russell's era to not take Russell 1st.
I did see players putting up shots that Russell blocked that left me wondering what the offensive player was thinking. Some players did not seemed be used to playing against shot blockers.

Russell slowed Wilt down. Russell did not stop Wilt. Wilt did not use his full physical power the way Shaq or Moses or even Patrick Ewing from some years might. Something, the way offensive fouls were called or an unwillingness to be a big bully was holding Wilt back. Maybe Wilt was used to being the better athlete and could not change his playing style to adjust to Russell's athleticism.

Was Russell a better defender than Wilt? I think Russell was a better defender than Wilt.

The guy who reminds me of Russell is Camby or what Camby might have been if he never got injured. Russel also reminds me of Robinson. Are we so sure that Russell is better than Robinson. I believe in Russell's intangibles but I am not sure that David Robinson plunked into the 1960s wouldn't be a better defender than Russell if Robinson could stay motivated.

If I wanted a center to stop power like Shaq, Moses or Wilt unleashed then I might prefer Dikembe. Dikembe didn't stop Shaq any more than Russell stoped Wilt. Dikembe just slowed Shaq down a bit.

Hakeem was really good. I am not sure that Russel was better than Hakeem.

Russell had the advantage of not being the primary option on offense.

Somebody had to make the case against Russell. Hopefully somebody can make the case against Russell more whole heartedly than me. I am ambivalent about Russell being the best defender. He might actually be the best defensive center.

[Dr Positivity]

Bill Russell. No need to overthink this one.

[DatAsh]

This is a great project I've enjoyed reading through. I don't want to interfere, but if ever there was a lock Bill Russell should be it. I think the real interesting debate starts at 2.

I agree. I think the interesting debate starts at 2.

[kendogg]

We're finally at the big one. I think the contenders for the top spots are (ordered by era):

Bill Russell: Probably the defensive IQ goat. The best shotblocker after Wilt and Wilt chased blocks at times. Best rebounder after Wilt. He got to rest on offense more than most of the centers on this list though as he was mostly a defensive specialist and was a system player on offense mostly. He would routinely mind game players into taking bad shots. He not only blocked a ton of shots, he was a master of tapping his blocks to teammates for easy buckets.

Unofficial block data for Russ and Wilt: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1413138 (Russ 8.1 over 135 games, Wilt 8.8 over 112 though 30% higher pace than modern times)

Wilt Chamberlain: Best rebounder and shotblocker of all time. If he was locked in, he was absolutely the most dominating defender. Did tend to chase blocks too much, and would not necessarily try to utilize his strength as much as he could or perhaps should have unless someone pissed him off. He almost retired early in his career at points due to how much abuse he took in the paint, similar to how people would literally hang on Shaq and the refs would give players a lot of leeway because he was so much stronger than his peers. Was a smart player, but not as smart defensively as a some others on this list.

Nate Thurmond: Among the top 10 rebounders and shotblockers in history and could hold his own against Russ and Wilt, though somewhat overshadowed by them. Was built like a tank and pretty quick. Reminds me of an old school David Robinson.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Not only a top ~5 peak rim protection, he has the career impact as well with his nearly 20 years of star level defense.

Hakeem Olajuwon: Top 5 rim protector and probably 3rd best after Russ and Wilt. Was a better man defender and ball thief than most centers as well..perhaps the best in the group. Though Russ still almost certainly has the IQ edge Dream has a very high bball IQ.

Dikembe Mutombo: Defensive specialist so he got to rest a lot on offense, but earns his spot with a top ~10 rim protection case and probably closer to 5, along with durability matched only by Kareem in this group. Not quite top 3 man defender, but he was a nightmare matchup for any opposing center as he was relentless.

David Robinson: Maybe the best all around athlete of the group outside of Wilt and David is quicker. Very smart and unbelievably good all around defender. Was amazing even in his rookie year. Unfortunately not a very long career. Top 5 peak rim protector though in my book and top 3 man defender/ball thief in this group as well.

Ben Wallace: Top 10 rebounder and shotblocker and top 3 man defender and ball thief in the group.

As for my vote...well I think it is closer than some are stating. But ultimately I think the top spot is between Russ and Dream for me, with 2 or 3 others on their heels. I'm going Bill Russell.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Bill Russell.
Unanimous is OK.

[JordansBulls]

Wouldn’t say it is Russell easily as he had a player who averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on him for his career. To compare no one averaged that on Joakim Noah. Hell Shaq at his peak was only getting 30 ppg and 15 rpg on Rik Smits in his last year

[pandrade83]

Bill Russell - the clear defensive GOAT in my mind.

-Boston's teams were outliers defensively
-Russell powered them defensively
-That outlier status is what powered them to wins
-Based on game tape available, block ranges in the 6-7 range were not out of the question imo.

[Samurai]

This is Bill Russell easily. No one else comes close to his defensive impact.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wouldn’t say it is Russell easily as he had a player who averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on him for his career. To compare no one averaged that on Joakim Noah. Hell Shaq at his peak was only getting 30 ppg and 15 rpg on Rik Smits in his last year

What do you mean only? 15 rebounds is nearly the equivalent to 28 rebounds in the 60s. There were more rebounds available so RPG was higher during Russell's day. Wilt Chamberlain would drop 30 +15 on plenty.

[cecilthesheep]

I believe Hakeem deserves more consideration for this spot than he's getting, but I'm still going Russell like everyone else.

[penbeast0]

Russell

[Jaivl]

My quick, thoughtless shortlist:

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Wilt Chamberlain
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
Mark Eaton
Shawn Bradley

Voting Bill Russell here, of course.

[SkyHookFTW]

Bill Russell. Wilt may have lit him up a few times but every great defender gets roasted on occasion. Besides, no one could shut down Wilt back them.

[WestGOAT]

Tim Duncan, if he doesn't, Hakeem Olajuwon.

[trex_8063]

As much as people are saying we shouldn’t even think about this one, I do think a case CAN be made for someone other than Bill Russell. I won’t deny that NO ONE has had as much defensive impact as he did (or perhaps even particularly close); but as SinceGatlingWasARookie implied, one could fashion an argument around question-marks pertaining to era. Aside from questions on strength of era, let’s also take note of the relatively “smaller court”, which would allow a rim-protector who can cover a little ground a lot of latitude to effect the game defensively. In an era where a 20ft was considered a long/outside shot, and beyond that not typically thought of as a threat, there’s literally only about ⅔ the surface area of court that the defense has to effectively cover in Russell’s time compared to present day. With a more tightly-packed halfcourt, I think a player like Rudy Gobert would have a larger defensive impact in that scenario than he does today, for example. Would it match Russell’s? Idk, perhaps not, but just putting that out there.

Looking at a guy like David Robinson, I could potentially see him matching Russell’s impact in that time period, IF he had the mind to play like that. This is an important component of the case for Bill Russell, though: he was somewhat a unicorn in his time. He broke [or at least modified] many of the “rules” that were taken for granted about how a big-man should be and should play defense. He did so because he [and Auerbach, too] was a studious, thinking player, who sought out ways to be more effective defensively (even if they rubbed against conventional wisdom of the time).

In doing so, he essentially created the blue-print for the modern defensive big. If there had been no Bill Russell, and David Robinson had been born 30 years earlier, would David Robinson have had the basketball intellect to rewrite things as Russell did? Obviously we’ll never know, but we certainly cannot just assume that he would. DRob certainly had all of the necessary physical tools, though (one could even argue that Robinson was a marginally BETTER all-around athlete).

But there were other guys in that time with all the physical tools, too. There was, at the very least, one other phenomenal athlete in Russell’s time; a person whose athleticism is questioned by virtually no one: Wilt Chamberlain. Granted, defense often wasn’t Wilt’s focus; but even when it was, he never matched the defensive performance of most Russell-anchored teams. The single-best defensive team Wilt ever anchored was a -6.0 rDRTG (in ‘64). That was with a rookie Nate Thurmond (another fine athlete and fine defensive big) playing 26 mpg, and Al Attles (a defensive specialist) playing 27 mpg at PG. That was the best team defense Nate Thurmond was ever a part of, too (with or without Wilt); in fact, the best defense strictly Thurmond-anchored was just -3.3 rDRTG (and that was with a backcourt of Norm Van Lier and Jerry Sloan, plus Bob Love at PF). Even that -6.0 mark in ‘64 is still less than what Russell’s teams were AVERAGING over a 13-year period: the AVERAGE Celtics defense in Russell’s career was -6.9 rDRTG.

When a 35-year-old Russell decided to hang up his sneakers, the Celtics defense fell off by a somewhat shocking +6.3 (this was a team that still had prime John Havlicek and Tom Sanders). The best team defense the Celtics managed in the 70’s was a -5.8 rDRTG in ‘73: that just four years from Russell’s career, and arguably in a weaker ABA/expansion-diluted league…...and that’s with Dave Cowens up front with Paul Silas and John Havlicek, Don Chaney and Jo Jo White in the backcourt. White is arguably the weakest defender in that starting core, and even he’s pretty decent to my eye (he looks marginally better than Hondo at times). But the very best that core managed together was still a little less than the last Russell [last legs?] anchored defense.

And when we have all these “bridger” guys like Kareem who straddle multiple eras, with whom we can play the six degrees of separation game to the modern era…...idk, it’s hard to not look at Russell as a true outlier in defensive impact, even with era considerations.

As such, vote Bill Russell (though I do think it’s closer than some people imply).

[Statlanta]

We don't need to dwell on minutiae

Bill Russell

[PigsOnTheWing]

Looking at a guy like David Robinson, I could potentially see him matching Russell’s impact in that time period, IF he had the mind to play like that. This is an important component of the case for Bill Russell, though: he was somewhat a unicorn in his time. He broke [or at least modified] many of the “rules” that were taken for granted about how a big-man should be and should play defense. He did so because he [and Auerbach, too] was a studious, thinking player, who sought out ways to be more effective defensively (even if they rubbed against conventional wisdom of the time).

In the end it all comes down to this. He and Auerbach revolutionized the way defense is played and thought and this allowed Russell to have such an outlier impact on his team D. No player in history has had the same impact on just one end of the floor (be it offense or defense) he had imo.
I really wish they had counted blocks back then, not only because I wonder how many shots Russell could block in his best days (and the consequent triple and even quadruple doubles he could amass), but even more so because I'd love to see the difference in the number of blocks at league average before and after his first years. In the same way Curry made the 3 pointer "popular" across the league, Russell did with the idea of vertical defense. We can't be sure that 50 years from now people will still be throwing shots from 30 ft like Curry does, but for sure we know that the basic defensive concepts Russell and Auerbach introduced are still valid today. This fact, more than the numbers, can explain why I see Bill Russell as the undisputed best defender ever.
And even if we're playing the game of era-transplants, Russell would still be up there because his defensive skills and IQ are off the charts even by today's standards, though he wouldn't probably have quite the same impact.