Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[prophet_of_rage]

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These numbers seem suspicious when the game is played five on five.

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[Thugger HBC]

All I see from that data is Vonleh is a keeper.

[robillionaire]

How is going to be a steady number 3 without reps at the number 1. And it's a throwaway season. So why not see what you can do with a guy under contract the next two years.

See how it's done?

Now apply that same logic to a guy who is way younger and on a way cheaper deal.

See how it’s done?

I do. Then there shouldn't be a problem with Hardaway getting minutes and direct the Frank vitriol at some other player. Mudiay is really the player people wanting Frank to play more should be complaining about, but Mudiay is much better so it's a tough argument to say Frank should be playing over him.

That's the problem. Frank hasn't outplayed anybody in front of him.

You're right, he hasn't outplayed Mudiay. He is not currently a better player than Mudiay. But at what point, when you're the worst team in the entire NBA, does playing the best available player start to not become your #1 priority? The season is over. We are the 2nd worst team in the NBA and will be the undisputed worst by the end of January. When is it safe to switch into a player development mode over the "play the best player available" mode? This is completely setting aside the statistics in the above sample size that show he has been a part of the best 2 and 3 man combos.

[prophet_of_rage]

Now apply that same logic to a guy who is way younger and on a way cheaper deal.

See how it’s done?

I do. Then there shouldn't be a problem with Hardaway getting minutes and direct the Frank vitriol at some other player. Mudiay is really the player people wanting Frank to play more should be complaining about, but Mudiay is much better so it's a tough argument to say Frank should be playing over him.

That's the problem. Frank hasn't outplayed anybody in front of him.

You're right, he hasn't outplayed Mudiay. He is not currently a better player than Mudiay. But at what point, when you're the worst team in the entire NBA, does playing the best available player start to not become your #1 priority? The season is over. We are the 2nd worst team in the NBA and will be the undisputed worst by the end of January. When is it safe to switch into a player development mode over the "play the best player available" mode? This is completely setting aside the statistics in the above sample size that show he has been a part of the best 2 and 3 man combos.

I strongly doubt that combo data when you play five on five.

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[robillionaire]

I do. Then there shouldn't be a problem with Hardaway getting minutes and direct the Frank vitriol at some other player. Mudiay is really the player people wanting Frank to play more should be complaining about, but Mudiay is much better so it's a tough argument to say Frank should be playing over him.

That's the problem. Frank hasn't outplayed anybody in front of him.

You're right, he hasn't outplayed Mudiay. He is not currently a better player than Mudiay. But at what point, when you're the worst team in the entire NBA, does playing the best available player start to not become your #1 priority? The season is over. We are the 2nd worst team in the NBA and will be the undisputed worst by the end of January. When is it safe to switch into a player development mode over the "play the best player available" mode? This is completely setting aside the statistics in the above sample size that show he has been a part of the best 2 and 3 man combos.

I strongly doubt that combo data when you play five on five.

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Well that's why I said you can even set those stats aside. When is it ok to accept that the season is over and try develop a younger player? They're already starting Kornet over Kanter. I'm not high on Kanter but despite his glaring flaws Kornet is objectively not better than Kanter. And it's not like Mudiay's PG play is translating to wins. If we were winning games, ok, maybe you roll with Mudiay. But we're currently on the worst losing stretch of the season, the team is only looking worse as the games go by, and this is including losses in this stretch to some of the other bottom 5 teams in the NBA. Why shouldn't they even attempt to develop Frank when the season is over?

[prophet_of_rage]

You're right, he hasn't outplayed Mudiay. He is not currently a better player than Mudiay. But at what point, when you're the worst team in the entire NBA, does playing the best available player start to not become your #1 priority? The season is over. We are the 2nd worst team in the NBA and will be the undisputed worst by the end of January. When is it safe to switch into a player development mode over the "play the best player available" mode? This is completely setting aside the statistics in the above sample size that show he has been a part of the best 2 and 3 man combos.

I strongly doubt that combo data when you play five on five.

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Well that's why I said you can even set those stats aside. When is it ok to accept that the season is over and try develop a younger player? They're already starting Kornet over Kanter. I'm not high on Kanter but despite his glaring flaws Kornet is objectively not better than Kanter. And it's not like Mudiay's PG play is translating to wins. If we were winning games, ok, maybe you roll with Mudiay. But we're currently on the worst losing stretch of the season, the team is only looking worse as the games go by, and this is including losses in this stretch to some of the other bottom 5 teams in the NBA. Why shouldn't they even attempt to develop Frank when the season is over?

We have never been out of player development mode. But you have at least 10 players to develop: Mudiay, Robinson, Kornet, Hezonja, Ntilikina, Burke, Vonleh, Dotson, Trier, Knox and of those 10 five are backcourt players. Frank is not better than any of Mudiay, Burke, Dotson, Trier. Burke is pretty much removed from the occasion. Timmy is the 2 and Frank stinks off ball. So he has to pass Mudiay and Trier to get into big minutes territory.

The players ahead of him are being developed. That's Frank's issue.

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[dakomish23]

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These numbers seem suspicious when the game is played five on five.

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We’ve switched around so many times that the most minutes any 5 man unit has together is 154. We only have 4 lineups that have even played 48 minutes together.

Here’s the top 4 full lineups

154 mins Kanter THJ Vonleh Mudiay Knox -15.4 net rtg
153 mins Kanter THJ Vonleh Mudiay Mario - 6.1 net rtg
94 mins Mitch THJ Vonleh Dotson Frank +8.1 net rtg
65 mins Kanter THJ LFT Burke Frank -6.2 net rtg

It makes sense. THJ as the sole bad defender limits the exposure on that end. His score first mentality works with a pass first PG and 3 guys who don’t need the ball (and probably can’t have the ball) in their hands.

I’d love to replace THJ with Knox and see how it goes.

[prophet_of_rage]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


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[BBALLER4FR]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


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Then we re-tweak the data until the outcome shows a scenario that overrides what our eyes see and shove it down throats so it doesn't appear like we might have been incorrect. We must NEVER admit that. Next up, we will see how Frank plays with Dotson and Vonleh in games where Dotson and Vonleh have efficient shooting nights and positive +/- while Frank puts up 4pts/1rb/2ast/3to with a -18 plus/minus. My guess is the data shows a net positive and since Frank's name is included in the data, some of that credit goes to him by association. Also, this type of wonky analysis shall only be employed for Ntilikina evaluation.

[FemaleDogPlease]

Hopefully Perry does the his thing sooner than later.

[FKF]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


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You’re going to judge Frank on a night he comes off the bench with the team down double digits already ? Really ?
This team is tanking, these players are showcasing their individual talents, don’t play together, there’s no point evaluating anyone on the roster when you’re tanking. It’s a joke that Adam Silver should find a way to correct. Can’t sell a product that’s non competitive.

Tony Parker was right to worry New York wouldn’t have the patience to develop Frank Ntilikina. They don’t have the patience to develop any young player since they developed Ewing, which took some years.
Porzingis was surprinsgly quick to showcase highlights and they already want to give him $150m or so despite he hasn’t played in a year and never played a play-off game...

[FKF]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


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Then we re-tweak the data until the outcome shows a scenario that overrides what our eyes see and shove it down throats so it doesn't appear like we might have been incorrect. We must NEVER admit that. Next up, we will see how Frank plays with Dotson and Vonleh in games where Dotson and Vonleh have efficient shooting nights and positive +/- while Frank puts up 4pts/1rb/2ast/3to with a -18 plus/minus. My guess is the data shows a net positive and since Frank's name is included in the data, some of that credit goes to him by association. Also, this type of wonky analysis shall only be employed for Ntilikina evaluation.

It’s amazing in 2018 players are valued by stat production, and then accused to stat padding when they are pushed to do so.

Basketball is a team sport, Frank plays within a team. He values a screen and a good entry pass as much as a three pointer. Fans obviously don’t.
A good ball mind will tell you an assist isn’t much valuable for a player, it just happens to be the last pass of a team set play, but pass number one, number two and number three are just as important as the fourth last recorded an assist.

[Deeeez Knicks]

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if we are trying to compete the defensive lineups work best

[prophet_of_rage]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

You’re going to judge Frank on a night he comes off the bench with the team down double digits already ? Really ?
This team is tanking, these players are showcasing their individual talents, don’t play together, there’s no point evaluating anyone on the roster when you’re tanking. It’s a joke that Adam Silver should find a way to correct. Can’t sell a product that’s non competitive.

Tony Parker was right to worry New York wouldn’t have the patience to develop Frank Ntilikina. They don’t have the patience to develop any young player since they developed Ewing, which took some years.
Porzingis was surprinsgly quick to showcase highlights and they already want to give him $150m or so despite he hasn’t played in a year and never played a play-off game...

I've judged Frank since last year. He is a worse player this year. I just want to know what happens if Frank continues to give us this kind of production at 25 minutes a game. Are we happy? Is it satisfactory? Is it a bad thing? What?

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[prophet_of_rage]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

Then we re-tweak the data until the outcome shows a scenario that overrides what our eyes see and shove it down throats so it doesn't appear like we might have been incorrect. We must NEVER admit that. Next up, we will see how Frank plays with Dotson and Vonleh in games where Dotson and Vonleh have efficient shooting nights and positive +/- while Frank puts up 4pts/1rb/2ast/3to with a -18 plus/minus. My guess is the data shows a net positive and since Frank's name is included in the data, some of that credit goes to him by association. Also, this type of wonky analysis shall only be employed for Ntilikina evaluation.

It’s amazing in 2018 players are valued by stat production, and then accused to stat padding when they are pushed to do so.

Basketball is a team sport, Frank plays within a team. He values a screen and a good entry pass as much as a three pointer. Fans obviously don’t.
A good ball mind will tell you an assist isn’t much valuable for a player, it just happens to be the last pass of a team set play, but pass number one, number two and number three are just as important as the fourth last recorded an assist.

So then throwing out stats, does Frank set screens, rebound, make shots, draw two defenders, make creative passes, cut hard to the basket, post up, play the passing lanes, defend off ball? I know he passrs the ball off. I know he competes on ball. I just don't see him do anything else statistically or team wise. He's Luke Walton to me ... a swing pass that anybidy can make.

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[knuckles862]

So 1 for 7 tonight and 2 rebounds. If Frank gets to 25 minutes and still produces like this then what?


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Then we re-tweak the data until the outcome shows a scenario that overrides what our eyes see and shove it down throats so it doesn't appear like we might have been incorrect. We must NEVER admit that. Next up, we will see how Frank plays with Dotson and Vonleh in games where Dotson and Vonleh have efficient shooting nights and positive +/- while Frank puts up 4pts/1rb/2ast/3to with a -18 plus/minus. My guess is the data shows a net positive and since Frank's name is included in the data, some of that credit goes to him by association. Also, this type of wonky analysis shall only be employed for Ntilikina evaluation.

It’s amazing in 2018 players are valued by stat production, and then accused to stat padding when they are pushed to do so.

Basketball is a team sport, Frank plays within a team. He values a screen and a good entry pass as much as a three pointer. Fans obviously don’t.
A good ball mind will tell you an assist isn’t much valuable for a player, it just happens to be the last pass of a team set play, but pass number one, number two and number three are just as important as the fourth last recorded an assist.

You make it seem like he is drawing doubles like an all star which creates alot of ball movements. Let's be real there are players in the NBA that play within the team and still produce in the box score. Not saying box score is the only thing but these intangibles you frank worshipers keep mentioning aren't moving the needle and won't accept that he is playing worse than last season. I don't hate the kid but basketball is also a business if your asset is losing over a large sample size then you need to cut your losses not hold on while it loses more value. If we continue this project I want to see him get better not worse tell me how he is better

[HarthorneWingo]

Dante Exum looked pretty damn good last night.

[BBALLER4FR]

Dante Exum looked pretty damn good last night.

Wait, Frank has been playing professionally since 2015, with professional championships under his belt and now this teams expectations should be the equivalent of the progress of guy finally showing signs 4 years in, with 2 years of little action due to a torn ACL and shoulder surgery? Just want to be sure we're viewing this great French talent correctly.

[Ray Williams]

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this is why I have confidence in the kid...surround him with a couple of scoreres (KP/max FA/top pick).

The guy can't put up 10 and 7 games with great defense?...he's a weapon if he's playing like the above. This is what gets me excited.

Miss KP, he and Frank had good chemistry. Imagine the defense with KP, Mitch and Frank on the floor together.

Mitch/Vonleh
KP/Knox
Durant/Knox
Frank/Trier
Cam/Dotson

[prophet_of_rage]

Dante Exum looked pretty damn good last night.

That is a condemnation of the Knicks. Exum is not a good player.

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