Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[Jeff Van Gully]

Yeah I generally agree although occasionally there are guys that are can't miss types.

agreed. every so often there's some undeniable talent/competitor we can pretty safely assume will be special as a pro too. and my point is more about the rarity of those guys. they're exactly why you want to pick high.

Not sure there is anyone like that in this draft. I honestly don't see Zion that way despite the hype. It's a good draft though don't get me wrong.

i see some disappointment potential in zion. but if anyone is that in this draft, it's him. he may be a bit overhyped. but i see it.

my sole concern with him is his size. i could see him getting injured due to carrying too much weight and thinking he will be superhumanly explosive/athletic forever. also, i could see him being an eddy curry risk. again, he has so much talent that he may never see the need to take as good care of his body as others do.

outside of that... CAR AIN'T GOT NO ROOF!!!!



switch it over to the left side. crossover. gimme some mo'!

[Thugger HBC]

Ariza ended up being a top 10 player from his draft. I hope for more, but at #9 a solid starter is about what you can expect from history. If Frank can be a solid starter 3D type on Arizas level, i would take that at this point.

But you wouldn't keep him around very long, which is the point. Those types don't stay on teams long, and it would be very unlikely if Frank did turn into an Ariza type that it would happen here. Even for Ariza it took roughly 5 years to be a solid contributor. he actually was a good piece for the champion Lakers and even then he stayed 2 years there.

I think what you've said is accurate for the most part.

I just don't think we're gonna see tangible development as we're getting blown out in all these games.

As long as the losses pile up and we start every game down 15 or so, we ain't gonna see anything.

Let's be honest though, has anyone really developed as of yet outside of Noah Vonleh? Have we really seen tangible development from guys like Mudiay or Trier or was their production merely a result of teams not giving a **** early on in the season?

Come tomorrow, we'll see that everyone's gonna regress and all of our players will resort to what they're comfortable at. Knox, scoring. Trier, scoring. Mudiay, well idk. Frank, maybe defense. And it'll be done inconsistently.

Imo, development isn't a season event, it takes multiple seasons to see it transpire. With a guy like Vonleh you're seeing his talents on display, a focused player playing to his skills, not development per se. in a way same with Mudiay.

The only players at the moment I would say are being developed on/off the court is Mitch and Knox and possibly Trier.

You can see a difference in Knox since he had the dialogue with BK. Mitch just needs to be healthy but bringing in Sheed to talk and workput with him imo was instrumental.

I know Fiz said Clyde has been around the guards, but he said that very looosely and the footage is non existent. Even Starks involvement has been documented.

[Phish Tank]

But you wouldn't keep him around very long, which is the point. Those types don't stay on teams long, and it would be very unlikely if Frank did turn into an Ariza type that it would happen here. Even for Ariza it took roughly 5 years to be a solid contributor. he actually was a good piece for the champion Lakers and even then he stayed 2 years there.

I think what you've said is accurate for the most part.

I just don't think we're gonna see tangible development as we're getting blown out in all these games.

As long as the losses pile up and we start every game down 15 or so, we ain't gonna see anything.

Let's be honest though, has anyone really developed as of yet outside of Noah Vonleh? Have we really seen tangible development from guys like Mudiay or Trier or was their production merely a result of teams not giving a **** early on in the season?

Come tomorrow, we'll see that everyone's gonna regress and all of our players will resort to what they're comfortable at. Knox, scoring. Trier, scoring. Mudiay, well idk. Frank, maybe defense. And it'll be done inconsistently.

Imo, development isn't a season event, it takes multiple seasons to see it transpire. With a guy like Vonleh you're seeing his talents on display, a focused player playing to his skills, not development per se. in a way same with Mudiay.

The only players at the moment I would say are being developed on/off the court is Mitch and Knox and possibly Trier.

You can see a difference in Knox since he had the dialogue with BK. Mitch just needs to be healthy but bringing in Sheed to talk and workput with him imo was instrumental.

I know Fiz said Clyde has been around the guards, but he said that very looosely and the footage is non existent. Even Starks involvement has been documented.

You're probably right, although my guess is Dot & Frank are also being developed on/off the court too. If they didn't - just because Perry/Mills didn't draft him - then they're stupid execs.

I know about the Knox/BK connection. My main problem with that is I want Knox to become more well rounded. Right now he's just being a scorer and that's it.

Starks is almost a reverse problem . Seems like he's here every year and everyone seem to only take the chucking part of his game and not the defensive hustle aspect (see: JR Smith, Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier)

[Jeff Van Gully]

I believe there’s a possibility he leaves the nba shortly after his rookie deal. I think it will be a mutual thing regardless if he’s with the knicks or not. I have a hard time seeing him sticking in this league. But more importantly I have a feeling he might not want to. Going back home, to be with family, to make similar money, in a league he’s better suited for seems like a no brainer.


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that part ain't happening in France Pro A.

if he doesn't have the heart/stomach/juevos for this after his rookie deal, i could see him going back to europe somewhere. france pro A, probably not. he could play just fine in the Spanish ACB. more money. not too far from the fam in france. occasional euroleague mixups.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I think what you've said is accurate for the most part.

I just don't think we're gonna see tangible development as we're getting blown out in all these games.

As long as the losses pile up and we start every game down 15 or so, we ain't gonna see anything.

Let's be honest though, has anyone really developed as of yet outside of Noah Vonleh? Have we really seen tangible development from guys like Mudiay or Trier or was their production merely a result of teams not giving a **** early on in the season?

Come tomorrow, we'll see that everyone's gonna regress and all of our players will resort to what they're comfortable at. Knox, scoring. Trier, scoring. Mudiay, well idk. Frank, maybe defense. And it'll be done inconsistently.

Imo, development isn't a season event, it takes multiple seasons to see it transpire. With a guy like Vonleh you're seeing his talents on display, a focused player playing to his skills, not development per se. in a way same with Mudiay.

The only players at the moment I would say are being developed on/off the court is Mitch and Knox and possibly Trier.

You can see a difference in Knox since he had the dialogue with BK. Mitch just needs to be healthy but bringing in Sheed to talk and workput with him imo was instrumental.

I know Fiz said Clyde has been around the guards, but he said that very looosely and the footage is non existent. Even Starks involvement has been documented.

You're probably right, although my guess is Dot & Frank are also being developed on/off the court too. If they didn't - just because Perry/Mills didn't draft him - then they're stupid execs.

I know about the Knox/BK connection. My main problem with that is I want Knox to become more well rounded. Right now he's just being a scorer and that's it.

Starks is almost a reverse problem . Seems like he's here every year and everyone seem to only take the chucking part of his game and not the defensive hustle aspect (see: JR Smith, Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier)

i'm good with knox working on the low-hanging fruit of pruning his offense now. i think he is indeed working on everything. i'm liking the increasing effort on the boards and defense. he's a rook. it's all an adjustment.

[mpharris36]

i don't get the ariza comps at all because ariza had no handle or playamaking. If your going to go player comparison Batums seems more appropriate right now. He wont be a lead playmaker on a team...but he can be a secondary playmaker with the ability to defend 3 positions.

I used Batum in my post earlier as well, but scaled it down because folks admitted they'd be happy with Frank as an Ariza type.

Honestly though how much would pay for either type, because Frank is only 2-3 years away from receiving a new deal.

it honestly all depends on what the roster construction looks like. If we are able to land a stud in the draft and a potential max FA...and we are maxed out financially then absolutely a glue guy like Frank would make a lot of sense (whatever his market value is at the time).

If we are still struggling and haven't found our superstar then tying up 10-12 million or whatever it is would probably be lofty to do. It depends on other situations because Frank can't be a main guy...but if he can figure it out a little offensively he's the type of glue guy on a good team that will be very important to have. Can't have 5 gunners.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Frank still has time, but he has to develop much better than he has. Frank being just a 3 & D player is essentially a bust of a draft pick. 3&D can be found in the 2nd round. That's Dameyean Dotson, a second round pick. Those guys don't even stay on team that long unless they are elite at what they do. A team shouldn't invest in that.

Ariza seems to be the comparison lately. He's a role player, drafted in the 2nd round, outside of Houston he's bounced all over the league. No teams invests in a player like Ariza.

Batum would be a more acceptable growth goal. Even if Frank doesn't become a reliable scorer he needs to at least become a reliable playmaker, be able to knock down the 3 consistently and play premier defense.

Ariza ended up being a top 10 player from his draft. I hope for more, but at #9 a solid starter is about what you can expect from history. If Frank can be a solid starter 3D type on Arizas level, i would take that at this point.

But you wouldn't keep him around very long, which is the point. Those types don't stay on teams long, and it would be very unlikely if Frank did turn into an Ariza type that it would happen here. Even for Ariza it took roughly 5 years to be a solid contributor. he actually was a good piece for the champion Lakers and even then he stayed 2 years there.

A lot of it depends on situation and price. The Spurs kept Danny Green around for awhile and it was worth it for them. A lot of 3D players are replaceable, but elite 3D players are pretty valuable.

Overall, i do agree with your point that its not something you'd want to invest in heavily. And there is a lot of wasted time in developing just to see if Frank can get to that point.

But even if we drop the 3D title, i think it's more the reality of drafting #8. Its not easy to find a foundation piece there that you'd want to keep around for 10+ years. Most players taken at that spot end up just being solid players or worse, and can be replaceable. Then from there, it depends on the next contract.

[mpharris36]

I believe there’s a possibility he leaves the nba shortly after his rookie deal. I think it will be a mutual thing regardless if he’s with the knicks or not. I have a hard time seeing him sticking in this league. But more importantly I have a feeling he might not want to. Going back home, to be with family, to make similar money, in a league he’s better suited for seems like a no brainer.


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when the roberson and bradley of the world make 10 million + why in the world would a 20 year old with big time defensive ability go home? He's 20 and he already is a good defender...yes his offense needs plenty of work but guys like Tony Allen and Roberson have made a lot of money playing defense.

This idea that he will be out of the league is ridiculous IMO. He was a lottery ticket with great measurable and defensive ability which they hoped his offense would slowly develop. I think its been frustrating because the offense has developed much at all in a year and a half...but he's still 20...so he got a couple more years before I write the book on him.

[Thugger HBC]

I think what you've said is accurate for the most part.

I just don't think we're gonna see tangible development as we're getting blown out in all these games.

As long as the losses pile up and we start every game down 15 or so, we ain't gonna see anything.

Let's be honest though, has anyone really developed as of yet outside of Noah Vonleh? Have we really seen tangible development from guys like Mudiay or Trier or was their production merely a result of teams not giving a **** early on in the season?

Come tomorrow, we'll see that everyone's gonna regress and all of our players will resort to what they're comfortable at. Knox, scoring. Trier, scoring. Mudiay, well idk. Frank, maybe defense. And it'll be done inconsistently.

Imo, development isn't a season event, it takes multiple seasons to see it transpire. With a guy like Vonleh you're seeing his talents on display, a focused player playing to his skills, not development per se. in a way same with Mudiay.

The only players at the moment I would say are being developed on/off the court is Mitch and Knox and possibly Trier.

You can see a difference in Knox since he had the dialogue with BK. Mitch just needs to be healthy but bringing in Sheed to talk and workput with him imo was instrumental.

I know Fiz said Clyde has been around the guards, but he said that very looosely and the footage is non existent. Even Starks involvement has been documented.

You're probably right, although my guess is Dot & Frank are also being developed on/off the court too. If they didn't - just because Perry/Mills didn't draft him - then they're stupid execs.

I know about the Knox/BK connection. My main problem with that is I want Knox to become more well rounded. Right now he's just being a scorer and that's it.

Starks is almost a reverse problem . Seems like he's here every year and everyone seem to only take the chucking part of his game and not the defensive hustle aspect (see: JR Smith, Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier)

I think what the front office and coach want is for these guys to be comfortable on the court which likely explains why Knox has logged an unusual amount of minutes as of late and has primarily been tasked with scoring and rebounding, things he should be comfortable with. he has a frame that defense should develop even though we haven't seen it yet.

Imo, I don't think the trio is invested in Frank and Dotson primarily because they didn't draft them, but also potential. I think that is the wrong approach, but I understand it. Both of their ceilings aren't pieces a team would invest in. They both project quite similarly.....defense minded, limited offense. Thats not bad, but that's not core worthy.

[Phish Tank]

Imo, development isn't a season event, it takes multiple seasons to see it transpire. With a guy like Vonleh you're seeing his talents on display, a focused player playing to his skills, not development per se. in a way same with Mudiay.

The only players at the moment I would say are being developed on/off the court is Mitch and Knox and possibly Trier.

You can see a difference in Knox since he had the dialogue with BK. Mitch just needs to be healthy but bringing in Sheed to talk and workput with him imo was instrumental.

I know Fiz said Clyde has been around the guards, but he said that very looosely and the footage is non existent. Even Starks involvement has been documented.

You're probably right, although my guess is Dot & Frank are also being developed on/off the court too. If they didn't - just because Perry/Mills didn't draft him - then they're stupid execs.

I know about the Knox/BK connection. My main problem with that is I want Knox to become more well rounded. Right now he's just being a scorer and that's it.

Starks is almost a reverse problem . Seems like he's here every year and everyone seem to only take the chucking part of his game and not the defensive hustle aspect (see: JR Smith, Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier)

I think what the front office and coach want is for these guys to be comfortable on the court which likely explains why Knox has logged an unusual amount of minutes as of late and has primarily been tasked with scoring and rebounding, things he should be comfortable with. he has a frame that defense should develop even though we haven't seen it yet.

Imo, I don't think the trio is invested in Frank and Dotson primarily because they didn't draft them, but also potential. I think that is the wrong approach, but I understand it. Both of their ceilings aren't pieces a team would invest in. They both project quite similarly.....defense minded, limited offense. Thats not bad, but that's not core worthy.

I get Knox's minutes, but giving him 40+ minutes on the road in blowouts will be a recipe for disaster.

Which is cool, but as you and I both know, finding the defensive-minded/limited offense players are a bit difficult to draft and they'd cost a lot of $ to find in FA. Those players net at least $11-13M in free agency now.

Scott Perry worked in finance before this. He should know this best.

[Knicksfan1992]

You're probably right, although my guess is Dot & Frank are also being developed on/off the court too. If they didn't - just because Perry/Mills didn't draft him - then they're stupid execs.

I know about the Knox/BK connection. My main problem with that is I want Knox to become more well rounded. Right now he's just being a scorer and that's it.

Starks is almost a reverse problem . Seems like he's here every year and everyone seem to only take the chucking part of his game and not the defensive hustle aspect (see: JR Smith, Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier)

I think what the front office and coach want is for these guys to be comfortable on the court which likely explains why Knox has logged an unusual amount of minutes as of late and has primarily been tasked with scoring and rebounding, things he should be comfortable with. he has a frame that defense should develop even though we haven't seen it yet.

Imo, I don't think the trio is invested in Frank and Dotson primarily because they didn't draft them, but also potential. I think that is the wrong approach, but I understand it. Both of their ceilings aren't pieces a team would invest in. They both project quite similarly.....defense minded, limited offense. Thats not bad, but that's not core worthy.

I get Knox's minutes, but giving him 40+ minutes on the road in blowouts will be a recipe for disaster.

Which is cool, but as you and I both you, finding the defensive-minded/limited offense players are a bit difficult to draft and they'd cost a lot of $ to find in FA. Those players net at least $11-13M in free agency now.

Scott Perry worked in finance before this. He should know this best.

The bolded is completely false... Defense is way easier to find than offense, especially, on the wing.

[MaseInYourFace]

Yeah Knox has made adjustments on D as well. Yeah he still needs a lot of work there but go back and look at video from really early in the season. He was totally lost on defense, now it's more like focusing in on specific things he needs to work on.

[mpharris36]

they don't seem "core" worthy because we don't have a good enough team yet...but hit in the lottery and in free agency and have actual 1st and 2nd options offensively and not rely on Timmy to be a main option...those glue defensive oriented guys on rookie contracts are very important. If they are being relied to score because we currently don't have enough talent they will be exposed...if they fit into more conducive roles I think the team will need these type of guys whether its on the bench or as the 5th starter surrounded by better offensive players.

[Phish Tank]

I think what the front office and coach want is for these guys to be comfortable on the court which likely explains why Knox has logged an unusual amount of minutes as of late and has primarily been tasked with scoring and rebounding, things he should be comfortable with. he has a frame that defense should develop even though we haven't seen it yet.

Imo, I don't think the trio is invested in Frank and Dotson primarily because they didn't draft them, but also potential. I think that is the wrong approach, but I understand it. Both of their ceilings aren't pieces a team would invest in. They both project quite similarly.....defense minded, limited offense. Thats not bad, but that's not core worthy.

I get Knox's minutes, but giving him 40+ minutes on the road in blowouts will be a recipe for disaster.

Which is cool, but as you and I both you, finding the defensive-minded/limited offense players are a bit difficult to draft and they'd cost a lot of $ to find in FA. Those players net at least $11-13M in free agency now.

Scott Perry worked in finance before this. He should know this best.

The bolded is completely false... Defense is way easier to find than offense, especially, on the wing.

Is it? Then why do they get paid so much in FA?

[Thugger HBC]

Ariza ended up being a top 10 player from his draft. I hope for more, but at #9 a solid starter is about what you can expect from history. If Frank can be a solid starter 3D type on Arizas level, i would take that at this point.

But you wouldn't keep him around very long, which is the point. Those types don't stay on teams long, and it would be very unlikely if Frank did turn into an Ariza type that it would happen here. Even for Ariza it took roughly 5 years to be a solid contributor. he actually was a good piece for the champion Lakers and even then he stayed 2 years there.

A lot of it depends on situation and price. The Spurs kept Danny Green around for awhile and it was worth it for them. A lot of 3D players are replaceable, but elite 3D players are pretty valuable.

Overall, i do agree with your point that its not something you'd want to invest in heavily. And there is a lot of wasted time in developing just to see if Frank can get to that point.

But even if we drop the 3D title, i think it's more the reality of drafting #8. Its not easy to find a foundation piece there that you'd want to keep around for 10+ years. Most players taken at that spot end up just being solid players or worse, and can be replaceable. Then from there, it depends on the next contract.

I like your Danny Green example, because he's an exception. He's was the definition of elite as a 3-D. He was hitting threes over 40% for a team that didn't truly have the three ball in their offensive sets. Pop is on record for loathing the three. Green was just so good at it, combined with his defense there was no way to not keep him around. isn't it funny how the Spurs have so many exceptions and outliers? (way OT I know )

As for the drafting, true the 8th pick hasn't yielded a lot, but that's scout and gm decision making more than anything. But that can be said even about picks 1-3 in a lot of cases. But you want have that chance to make a proper choice. Jury is out if that choice was Frank.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I think what the front office and coach want is for these guys to be comfortable on the court which likely explains why Knox has logged an unusual amount of minutes as of late and has primarily been tasked with scoring and rebounding, things he should be comfortable with. he has a frame that defense should develop even though we haven't seen it yet.

Imo, I don't think the trio is invested in Frank and Dotson primarily because they didn't draft them, but also potential. I think that is the wrong approach, but I understand it. Both of their ceilings aren't pieces a team would invest in. They both project quite similarly.....defense minded, limited offense. Thats not bad, but that's not core worthy.

I get Knox's minutes, but giving him 40+ minutes on the road in blowouts will be a recipe for disaster.

Which is cool, but as you and I both you, finding the defensive-minded/limited offense players are a bit difficult to draft and they'd cost a lot of $ to find in FA. Those players net at least $11-13M in free agency now.

Scott Perry worked in finance before this. He should know this best.

The bolded is completely false... Defense is way easier to find than offense, especially, on the wing.

just speaking about the bold... i think phish tank is right. i don't know how one could look especially at today's NBA and think it's easier to find wings who are more defensive-minded than those who are offensive-minded.

the entire american pro-basketball pipeline is mainly kids aspiring to be perimeter scorers. and the NBA is full of guys who can make baskets if given the opportunity. creating for oneself one-on-one is a bit of a differentiator, but i think most players can score and most are not defensive-minded.

but as much of a minority as they are, they still don't get overpaid like scorers do. buckets get the bucks. the market for those defenders is always good, so there's always a nice near-median contract available for them on teams that actually want to win.

just what i'm seeing. i'd love to see some more data on it.

[mpharris36]

really good defensive players that are competent on offense are really tough to find. I think its much easier to find a trier type that can score the basketball but have other limitations then someone that can defend at a high level and is a positive on offense. Right now Frank is clearly not a positive on offense but the goal in his development is hopefully to get him there to be the ultimate glue piece for a good team. I think thats pretty simple to me.

[kane2021]

I believe there’s a possibility he leaves the nba shortly after his rookie deal. I think it will be a mutual thing regardless if he’s with the knicks or not. I have a hard time seeing him sticking in this league. But more importantly I have a feeling he might not want to. Going back home, to be with family, to make similar money, in a league he’s better suited for seems like a no brainer.


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when the roberson and bradley of the world make 10 million + why in the world would a 20 year old with big time defensive ability go home? He's 20 and he already is a good defender...yes his offense needs plenty of work but guys like Tony Allen and Roberson have made a lot of money playing defense.

This idea that he will be out of the league is ridiculous IMO. He was a lottery ticket with great measurable and defensive ability which they hoped his offense would slowly develop. I think its been frustrating because the offense has developed much at all in a year and a half...but he's still 20...so he got a couple more years before I write the book on him.

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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[mpharris36]

I believe there’s a possibility he leaves the nba shortly after his rookie deal. I think it will be a mutual thing regardless if he’s with the knicks or not. I have a hard time seeing him sticking in this league. But more importantly I have a feeling he might not want to. Going back home, to be with family, to make similar money, in a league he’s better suited for seems like a no brainer.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

when the roberson and bradley of the world make 10 million + why in the world would a 20 year old with big time defensive ability go home? He's 20 and he already is a good defender...yes his offense needs plenty of work but guys like Tony Allen and Roberson have made a lot of money playing defense.

This idea that he will be out of the league is ridiculous IMO. He was a lottery ticket with great measurable and defensive ability which they hoped his offense would slowly develop. I think its been frustrating because the offense has developed much at all in a year and a half...but he's still 20...so he got a couple more years before I write the book on him.

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

[kane2021]

when the roberson and bradley of the world make 10 million + why in the world would a 20 year old with big time defensive ability go home? He's 20 and he already is a good defender...yes his offense needs plenty of work but guys like Tony Allen and Roberson have made a lot of money playing defense.

This idea that he will be out of the league is ridiculous IMO. He was a lottery ticket with great measurable and defensive ability which they hoped his offense would slowly develop. I think its been frustrating because the offense has developed much at all in a year and a half...but he's still 20...so he got a couple more years before I write the book on him.

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Definitely agree on that.


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