Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[Knicksfan1992]

really good defensive players that are competent on defense are really tough to find. I think its much easier to find a trier type that can score the basketball but have other limitations then someone that can defend at a high level and is a positive on offense. Right now Frank is clearly not a positive on offense but the goal in his development is hopefully to get him there to be the ultimate glue piece for a good team. I think thats pretty simple to me.

I agree with your premise on Frank but it's easy to find guys off the scrap heap who can give you good defensive effort on the perimeter. The hardest part is finding the guys who can do both. But guys who contribute to offense always get paid more especially on the perimeter.

Guys like David Nwaba, McCaw, McKinnie lingered into the season or right before the season before being signed and they were signed for practically nothing. If they were similarly talented on the offensive end they would have gotten paid more. Also most teams use their 2 way spots as ways to try and find cheap defensive talent on the perimeter because it's the easiest thing to find and plug in. Big men are really the only position that gets treated slightly differently IMO

[Jeff Van Gully]

really good defensive players that are competent on defense are really tough to find. I think its much easier to find a trier type that can score the basketball but have other limitations then someone that can defend at a high level and is a positive on offense. Right now Frank is clearly not a positive on offense but the goal in his development is hopefully to get him there to be the ultimate glue piece for a good team. I think thats pretty simple to me.

I agree with your premise on Frank but it's easy to find guys off the scrap heap who can give you good defensive effort on the perimeter. The hardest part is finding the guys who can do both. But guys who contribute to offense always get paid more especially on the perimeter.

Guys like David Nwaba, McCaw, McKinnie lingered into the season or right before the season before being signed and they were signed for practically nothing. If they were similarly talented on the offensive end they would have gotten paid more. Also most teams use their 2 way spots as ways to try and find cheap defensive talent on the perimeter because it's the easiest thing to find and plug in. Big men are really the only position that gets treated slightly differently IMO

i agree with everything you're saying except the concept that even one-way NBA perimeter defenders are the easiest thing to find. i really don't see the same number of people committing themselves to defense, even to secure professional careers.

i think there are millions of guys shooting in the gym trying to score their way into the NBA. there's a tighter bottleneck for them. there's a constraint. the defensive players stand out and are readily available when a team says they want one.

so they're easy to identify, and they're willing to take a job. but they're not more frequent in existence to their one-way offensive player counter parts. there are steve novaks and chris copelands EVERYWHERE. all over the world. people who can defend at an NBA level are special, but not market valued.

[Thugger HBC]

I agree with Knicksfan1992 on this. If a team needs a defensive minded wing, you can find that for cheap. I would even debate whether an elite version of that is even needed. A competent one is normally enough to get the job done.

[mpharris36]

really good defensive players that are competent on defense are really tough to find. I think its much easier to find a trier type that can score the basketball but have other limitations then someone that can defend at a high level and is a positive on offense. Right now Frank is clearly not a positive on offense but the goal in his development is hopefully to get him there to be the ultimate glue piece for a good team. I think thats pretty simple to me.

I agree with your premise on Frank but it's easy to find guys off the scrap heap who can give you good defensive effort on the perimeter. The hardest part is finding the guys who can do both. But guys who contribute to offense always get paid more especially on the perimeter.

Guys like David Nwaba, McCaw, McKinnie lingered into the season or right before the season before being signed and they were signed for practically nothing. If they were similarly talented on the offensive end they would have gotten paid more. Also most teams use their 2 way spots as ways to try and find cheap defensive talent on the perimeter because it's the easiest thing to find and plug in. Big men are really the only position that gets treated slightly differently IMO

the thing is guys rarely if ever become better on defense (its such an instinctual part of the game) . For the most part guys who come into the league as bad defenders stay bad defenders. Guys with defensive reps usually are the best defenders year in and year out. If you then can get that good defender to be competent on offense like you said the hardest thing is to find someone that can do both...so the knicks plan was get a good/great potential on defense and hopefully develop his raw offense to servicable levels to find a very rare glue player.

Rarely does a good offensive player learn how to randomly play good defense...

[Phish Tank]

I agree with Knicksfan1992 on this. If a team needs a defensive minded wing, you can find that for cheap. I would even debate whether an elite version of that is even needed. A competent one is normally enough to get the job done.

The Warriors would disagree with that. Draymond Green (pre 2018) (will get more than $16m in his next contract), Andre Iguodala (got 3 yrs $48M recently), and Shaun Livingston (got a 3 yr $24M extension but could have gotten way more) are all defensive minded players. Yes, they are more well rounded than Frank (obviously) and Roberson lite players. You can get guys on the scrap heap if you want to establish a culture on a rebuilding team. If you want to win for real, you have to pay up for those players.

[GONYK]

when the roberson and bradley of the world make 10 million + why in the world would a 20 year old with big time defensive ability go home? He's 20 and he already is a good defender...yes his offense needs plenty of work but guys like Tony Allen and Roberson have made a lot of money playing defense.

This idea that he will be out of the league is ridiculous IMO. He was a lottery ticket with great measurable and defensive ability which they hoped his offense would slowly develop. I think its been frustrating because the offense has developed much at all in a year and a half...but he's still 20...so he got a couple more years before I write the book on him.

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Dante Exum is getting $11M/yr. It's not out of the realm of possibility at all.

[Capn'O]

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Definitely agree on that.


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What we will need to do next season is make a decision about his 20-21 option. He needs to show something more soon in that regard.

[mpharris36]

just look at burke last year or mudiay/trier this year...we have found 3 guys for basically nothing...that contribute on offense but the one thing that has stayed consistent is our defense is atrocious.

[Thugger HBC]

I agree with Knicksfan1992 on this. If a team needs a defensive minded wing, you can find that for cheap. I would even debate whether an elite version of that is even needed. A competent one is normally enough to get the job done.

The Warriors would disagree with that. Draymond Green (pre 2018) (will get more than $16m in his next contract), Andre Iguodala (got 3 yrs $48M recently), and Shaun Livingston (got a 3 yr $24M extension but could have gotten way more) are all defensive minded players. Yes, they are more well rounded than Frank (obviously) and Roberson to an extent but they all got paid. You can get guys on the scrap heap if you want to establish a culture on a rebuilding team. If you want to win for real, you have to pony up for those players.

Those guys got paid because they do more on the offensive end as well. None of those guys are defense only.

[Phish Tank]

this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Definitely agree on that.


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What we will need to do next season is make a decision about his 20-21 option. He needs to show something more soon in that regard.

Unless the Knicks are penny pinching for cap space, they should pick it up anyways. If he doesn't amount to much, someone else will take a flyer on him especially if they have an additional year (20-21) to work with him

[mpharris36]

this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Definitely agree on that.


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What we will need to do next season is make a decision about his 20-21 option. He needs to show something more soon in that regard.

fair I think that clears up a bit more if we a capped out (no pun intended). Meaning if we sign a max or a FA this offseason and go over the cap to sign KP...then it makes no sense to not pick up the option. If we know we will have cap space then picking up the option is more dependent on how he improves.

[Phish Tank]

I agree with Knicksfan1992 on this. If a team needs a defensive minded wing, you can find that for cheap. I would even debate whether an elite version of that is even needed. A competent one is normally enough to get the job done.

The Warriors would disagree with that. Draymond Green (pre 2018) (will get more than $16m in his next contract), Andre Iguodala (got 3 yrs $48M recently), and Shaun Livingston (got a 3 yr $24M extension but could have gotten way more) are all defensive minded players. Yes, they are more well rounded than Frank (obviously) and Roberson to an extent but they all got paid. You can get guys on the scrap heap if you want to establish a culture on a rebuilding team. If you want to win for real, you have to pony up for those players.

Those guys got paid because they do more on the offensive end as well. None of those guys are defense only.

no but they're defense primary players. Their calling cards are defense.

[mpharris36]

So you’re going to pay him 10 million a year? Somehow I don’t see that. This is a conversation that’s going to have to take place fairly soon. And as I said. He has interests outside of the country. That’s a strong factor that many of these examples given don’t have. At least that I’m aware of.


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this conversation doesn't have to happen for another 2.5 years...so plenty of time to see how he develops...but we do need to see some progress over the next year or so for sure. Don't disagree there.

Dante Exum is getting $11M/yr. It's not out of the realm of possibility at all.

some guys investments are just longer in the developmental front...he was always a project...especially on offense..

now that isn't excuse making...regression on offense from last year was not expected...im just hoping the second half of this year with maybe the glut of roster is cleared up he can settle in and really start to find a decent groove.

[Thugger HBC]

just look at burke last year or mudiay/trier this year...we have found 3 guys for basically nothing...that contribute on offense but the one thing that has stayed consistent is our defense is atrocious.

We found Mitch with a 2nd rounder this year and Dotson with a 2nd rounder last year. Hell, Kornet has some two way potential and he was undrafted.

This doesn't bode well for Frank.

[Thugger HBC]

The Warriors would disagree with that. Draymond Green (pre 2018) (will get more than $16m in his next contract), Andre Iguodala (got 3 yrs $48M recently), and Shaun Livingston (got a 3 yr $24M extension but could have gotten way more) are all defensive minded players. Yes, they are more well rounded than Frank (obviously) and Roberson to an extent but they all got paid. You can get guys on the scrap heap if you want to establish a culture on a rebuilding team. If you want to win for real, you have to pony up for those players.

Those guys got paid because they do more on the offensive end as well. None of those guys are defense only.

no but they're defense primary players. Their calling cards are defense.

Not in Dray and Iggy's case. Both have always been as playmakers that defend elite.

[Phish Tank]

Those guys got paid because they do more on the offensive end as well. None of those guys are defense only.

no but they're defense primary players. Their calling cards are defense.

Not in Dray and Iggy's case. Both have always been as playmakers that defend elite.

The Warriors version of Iggy was primarily an elite defender. That version of Iggy got a 3 yr $48M extension.

[Capn'O]

Definitely agree on that.


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What we will need to do next season is make a decision about his 20-21 option. He needs to show something more soon in that regard.

Unless the Knicks are penny pinching for cap space, they should pick it up anyways. If he doesn't amount to much, someone else will take a flyer on him especially if they have an additional year (20-21) to work with him

Most likely. If we pick a guard in the draft though it has to be considered, just from a roster standpoint. Suns exited the Dragan and a couple other rookie deals got the team option dropped this season alone.

[Phish Tank]

What we will need to do next season is make a decision about his 20-21 option. He needs to show something more soon in that regard.

Unless the Knicks are penny pinching for cap space, they should pick it up anyways. If he doesn't amount to much, someone else will take a flyer on him especially if they have an additional year (20-21) to work with him

Most likely. If we pick a guard in the draft though it has to be considered, just from a roster standpoint. Suns exited the Dragan and a couple other rookie deals got the team option dropped this season alone.

yea but Frank has at least one NBA skill: defense.

Dragan had none.
I forget some of the other players they didn't pick up, but I don't think they had any either

[Thugger HBC]

no but they're defense primary players. Their calling cards are defense.

Not in Dray and Iggy's case. Both have always been as playmakers that defend elite.

The Warriors version of Iggy was primarily an elite defender. That version of Iggy got a 3 yr $48M extension.

He's a playmaker and a defender on GS. he's the wing version of Dray.

[whocares1]

just look at burke last year or mudiay/trier this year...we have found 3 guys for basically nothing...that contribute on offense but the one thing that has stayed consistent is our defense is atrocious.

Mudiay was an atrocious offensive player as well as his defense.

Trier was undrafted mainly due to scandal and lower ceiling as an upperclassmen.

Burke was never a consistent offensive threat. His inconsistencies on offense made him not stick in the NBA, not his defense.

You can equally say that we found Mitchell Robinson for nothing as well. Our offense is atrocious as well it isn’t just the defense.