2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[Young gun 6]

no rookie has played this well since 1980 when Bird and Magic both had mature games that allowed their teams to win. Not even lebron. Not MJ.

This is very very very rare!! To have the stats. the efficiency. AND the wins due to HIS clutch play in close games.

Once DSJ, Wes, and barnes leanr their roles and how to play off Doncic better this team should get back to winning with Doncic as its closer.

Tim Duncan averaged 21/12/3/2.5 on 55/60 shooting with a 22.6 PER, 58% TS, 5.6 OWS and 7.8 DWS.

Blake Griffin averaged 23/12/4/1 on 51/29/64 shooting with a 21.9 PER, 55% TS, 6.5 OWS and 3.4 DWS.

KAT averaged 18/11/2/1/2 on 54/34/81 shooting with a 22.5 PER, 59% TS, 5.5 OWS and 2.8 DWS.

Tyreke, David Robinson, Shaq and various other rookies have had much better stats than Doncic and the team is 17-18 it’s not like they are going crazy. Those rookies had a heap of clutch plays too, the internet just wasn’t nuts at that stage with YouTube and highlights every single night of the same players, they were pre-occupied by a competitive league and everything Lebron was doing which isn’t as relevant now with the Warriors, allowing more highlights and vision of younger, up and coming players.

[Johnny Firpo]

no rookie has played this well since 1980 when Bird and Magic both had mature games that allowed their teams to win. Not even lebron. Not MJ.

This is very very very rare!! To have the stats. the efficiency. AND the wins due to HIS clutch play in close games.

Once DSJ, Wes, and barnes leanr their roles and how to play off Doncic better this team should get back to winning with Doncic as its closer.

Tim Duncan averaged 21/12/3/2.5 on 55/60 shooting with a 22.6 PER, 58% TS, 5.6 OWS and 7.8 DWS.

Blake Griffin averaged 23/12/4/1 on 51/29/64 shooting with a 21.9 PER, 55% TS, 6.5 OWS and 3.4 DWS.

KAT averaged 18/11/2/1/2 on 54/34/81 shooting with a 22.5 PER, 59% TS, 5.5 OWS and 2.8 DWS.

Tyreke, David Robinson, Shaq and various other rookies have had much better stats than Doncic and the team is 17-18 it’s not like they are going crazy. Those rookies had a heap of clutch plays too, the internet just wasn’t nuts at that stage with YouTube and highlights every single night of the same players, they were pre-occupied by a competitive league and everything Lebron was doing which isn’t as relevant now with the Warriors, allowing more highlights and vision of younger, up and coming players.

Also, Luka is a perimeter player, while those guys were all bigs. The playing style of perimeter players/ball handlers are perceived to be more visually pleasing and relative to their talent, they are more popular on average. That's not his fault. Another thing, most of these guys were older, some significantly than Luka. Just thought I add this to make it a little more objective. I agree that several other rookies had more impressive seasons since 1980, although, again, most of them were older than him. I don't think he should be an All-Star, but I wouldn't be shocked if he gets close just because how popular he already is. His playing style/skill level makes him must-see TV.

[jayu70]

Watch on YouTube

Huerter looking good too. Steal at 19.

I knew Huerter could shoot, but his ability to put the ball on the floor, his passing and especially his defense has been surprising.
Like you said - steal at #19. Hawks seem to be having some good luck with the #19 picks. First John Collins, now Huerter.

[Pachinko_]

Ayton is already much better than Kanter, especially on D. (stats)
Ayton has showed the best quality he could possibly show, an ability to learn and improve, this guy is smart and aware and he seems to have coaches that are showing him the right things. Suns fans should be very excited.

But here's the thing: like I've been saying, the reason to pick Doncic over Ayton as a GM is a question of position and rarity. In a world where you can just reach in the market and sign a vet stretch big like Brook Lopez for $3m, I just would not invest too much on a C. Based on recent history if you want to be a top 4 team all you need is a Capela, at most, teams go to the finals with Zaza and Tristan Thomson. And there are Cs everywhere to pick from.

But, playmaking wings who can create a whole offense for you out of nothing? Handle and move the ball, find open teammates and create a decent shot at any point in time? Play multiple positions, switch on different players, help out on rebounds? That's basketball today. Ask any GM, no team can have too many of that kind of player, some teams would have 10 of them if they could, and they have currently none.

I keep comparing Doncic to Khris Middleton, Khris is not an elite player, at most a borderline all star who never actually made an ASG. But he is a playmaking wing like the one I described. Khris will be on the market this summer and talks are he will go for $25m+ per year. And Doncic as a teenager is already better than him at pretty much everything. That's nuts.

Doncic is the rarest commodity in basketball right now.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Phoenix is better with Ayton on floor by 4 points
Dallas is worse with Doncic on floor by 1 point

WS per 48
Ayton .149
Doncic .105

Narratives can be misleading as we've seen with twisting of evidence for the likes of Lonzo Ball.

Ayton scored 18 points in a row in 7 minutes and got a fraction of the attention than if Doncic did that.

I'm not arguing just for Ayton than trying to have both players be judged on the same criteria.

[Pachinko_]

There's another thing that impressed me, probably unimportant but still. Doncic has a signature move already. A 19 year old having a signature move in the NBA? I wonder how many people that can say that

I'm not talking about the step-back 3, a few players can do that, I'm talking about something that only he does. That thing where he drives his defender to the low post from the left, then fakes a two-hand pass behind the defenders back, the defender looks behind him and Doncic gets that split second of freedom to shoot or pass. It looks so simple and yet everybody bites
I remember it worked on Gobert, Holiday (Bulls), PG, I'm sure there would be more. You could call that move "the Doncic" and you wouldn't be wrong, I don't think I've seen anyone do this before?

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Watch on YouTube

Huerter looking good too. Steal at 19.

I knew Huerter could shoot, but his ability to put the ball on the floor, his passing and especially his defense has been surprising.
Like you said - steal at #19. Hawks seem to be having some good luck with the #19 picks. First John Collins, now Huerter.

I'm actually higher on Huerter than Young. Make of that what you will...

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Ayton is already much better than Kanter, especially on D. (stats)
Ayton has showed the best quality he could possibly show, an ability to learn and improve, this guy is smart and aware and he seems to have coaches that are showing him the right things. Suns fans should be very excited.

But here's the thing: like I've been saying, the reason to pick Doncic over Ayton as a GM is a question of position and rarity. In a world where you can just reach in the market and sign a vet stretch big like Brook Lopez for $3m, I just would not invest too much on a C. Based on recent history if you want to be a top 4 team all you need is a Capela, at most, teams go to the finals with Zaza and Tristan Thomson. And there are Cs everywhere to pick from.

But, playmaking wings who can create a whole offense for you out of nothing? Handle and move the ball, find open teammates and create a decent shot at any point in time? Play multiple positions, switch on different players, help out on rebounds? That's basketball today. Ask any GM, no team can have too many of that kind of player, some teams would have 10 of them if they could, and they have currently none.

I keep comparing Doncic to Khris Middleton, Khris is not an elite player, at most a borderline all star who never actually made an ASG. But he is a playmaking wing like the one I described. Khris will be on the market this summer and talks are he will go for $25m+ per year. And Doncic as a teenager is already better than him at pretty much everything. That's nuts.

Doncic is the rarest commodity in basketball right now.

Well said.

Luka's shotmaking is honestly what has wow'd me most. I knew he could pass, create, insane vision. But did not know he'd be this level of shotmaker. I mean the moves he pulls off, the shots he hits...the degree of difficulty (obviously he's nowhere near those guys yet, I just mean shotmaking ability) is Dirk, Kobe, Harden, etc. esque. Up and unders, pump fakes, stepbacks, hesitation (best change of speed guy sans Harden right now IMO) is unreal.

[King Ken]

Watch on YouTube

Huerter looking good too. Steal at 19.

I knew Huerter could shoot, but his ability to put the ball on the floor, his passing and especially his defense has been surprising.
Like you said - steal at #19. Hawks seem to be having some good luck with the #19 picks. First John Collins, now Huerter.

I'm actually higher on Huerter than Young. Make of that what you will...

I love Kevin but how is it possible for you to be higher on Kevin than Trae? Trae has potential to be one of the great PG of all time. Kevin doesn't have that potential as a SG. Curious to know?

[TheBonzaiEffect]

I knew Huerter could shoot, but his ability to put the ball on the floor, his passing and especially his defense has been surprising.
Like you said - steal at #19. Hawks seem to be having some good luck with the #19 picks. First John Collins, now Huerter.

I'm actually higher on Huerter than Young. Make of that what you will...

I love Kevin but how is it possible for you to be higher on Kevin than Trae? Trae has potential to be one of the great PG of all time. Kevin doesn't have that potential as a SG. Curious to know?

Because I think the bolded is one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

[King Ken]

I'm actually higher on Huerter than Young. Make of that what you will...

I love Kevin but how is it possible for you to be higher on Kevin than Trae? Trae has potential to be one of the great PG of all time. Kevin doesn't have that potential as a SG. Curious to know?

Because I think the bolded is one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

You're one of those guys huh...

Brought into the Wrestlemania hype of Doncic v. Young, brought a couple posters, a finger foam and gonna carry that fandom energy to the graveyard but not so fast my friend



Come to my classroom, grab a seat and let me tell you about the impact that a master sorcerer named Trae Young has recently blessed this beautiful game with.The game that one Dr. James Naismith created at a local YMCA for the youth just as yourself.

Let's start with the last 8 games for the Atlanta Hawks for Trae Young:



Trae has been playing extremely well on both ends in the last 8 games. I am perfectly fine with him. Since Huerter been inserted into the starting lineup, Trae has been much much better. Especially on defense.

16/3.5/8.3/1.3 on a 47/50/77.8 split

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

per36 his numbers are 19.7/4.3/10.1/1.5 with a 5.3 TOV rate in the last 8 games.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&LastNGames=8

Compare this to other ATG PG's their rookie year:

per36 is elite for a rookie true PG at 19.2/9.1/3.5/1 on a 39.6/27.5/78.2 split

CP3 - 16/8/5
Stockton - 11/10/2.5
Kidd - 12.5/8.4/5.8
Payton - 9.4/8.5/4
Curry- 17.4/6/4.4
Nash- 11.2/7.3/3
Zeke- 18.1/8.4/3.1

Trae is right on track.

Trae is having a TREMENDOUS rookie season for a true PG and one of his prototype. Is it perfect? No but it is much better than people are making it seem. Being a prized rookie PG is extremely hard. Ask DeAaron Fox. He has tremendously improved of late, especially on defense.

Trae's most amazing skill is his passing but his most underrated outside of his really good lateral quickness that no one talks about is his quickness and acceleration that is making him one of the most dangerous slashers in the NBA which is really how his playmaking is elite even if his passing still needs some work accuracy wise.

In the last 8 games, Trae is 3rd in the NBA with drives 19.3 with a higher FG% than James Harden at 43.6%. 20% of his drives lead to an assist and his assist rate is 3.9 which tops all players and his turnover rate is a lowly .9. which is pretty good. Trae is a monster. People love comparing him to Nash. He really is the next Isiah "Zeke" Thomas with insane court vision and range like Steph Curry. He is his own man.

His defense has been improving like cats and dogs. I think changing the personnel and him really focusing on assignments has turned him from a defensive superscrub into someone with potential. This was a man who literally didn't want to get in defensive stance at times and would just like players score so he can go back on offense. The biggest change I've seen from Trae is a mental one. He adjusted mentally. I really think this Doncic thing is getting to Ayton and Trae. I have never seen two players improve so much in a short span. Think about this, this is something John Wall still hasn't done yet. I can't recall the last time I've seen this. This quickly I mean. Maybe rookie Wade in the 2nd half?

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

[Goudelock]

I was able to watch the first quarter of the Suns VS Warriors game, and I didn't think that Ayton's defense looked bad at all. He rotated well and seemed to be active.

[spanishninja]

I was able to watch the first quarter of the Suns VS Warriors game, and I didn't think that Ayton's defense looked bad at all. He rotated well and seemed to be active.

he was able to force the warriors to pass out of a drive on several occasions, which is a really encouraging sign. couple of months ago that was definitely not the case.

on the offensive end, he has definitely reached a level where he can just casually give you 20/10 a night. the warriors were on him like crazy too.

[SlovenianDragon]

Ayton with another double double

Watch on YouTube

I think the roty race is tied between him and doncic. They do things differently so its hard to compare them to each other. But Its not a run away race for either of them as some make it to seem. If suns had an actual PG I think without a doubt Ayton would win. Lot of season left its going to be a fun race to watch

[Young gun 6]

I was able to watch the first quarter of the Suns VS Warriors game, and I didn't think that Ayton's defense looked bad at all. He rotated well and seemed to be active.

I think the only people who are saying he is shocking defensively are those that haven’t watched any of him or haven’t seen his last 15-20 games and missed all of December.

Ayton with another 20/10 game, that’s 11 on the season now.

[spanishninja]

no rookie has played this well since 1980 when Bird and Magic both had mature games that allowed their teams to win. Not even lebron. Not MJ.

This is very very very rare!! To have the stats. the efficiency. AND the wins due to HIS clutch play in close games.

Once DSJ, Wes, and barnes leanr their roles and how to play off Doncic better this team should get back to winning with Doncic as its closer.

Tim Duncan averaged 21/12/3/2.5 on 55/60 shooting with a 22.6 PER, 58% TS, 5.6 OWS and 7.8 DWS.

Blake Griffin averaged 23/12/4/1 on 51/29/64 shooting with a 21.9 PER, 55% TS, 6.5 OWS and 3.4 DWS.

KAT averaged 18/11/2/1/2 on 54/34/81 shooting with a 22.5 PER, 59% TS, 5.5 OWS and 2.8 DWS.

Tyreke, David Robinson, Shaq and various other rookies have had much better stats than Doncic and the team is 17-18 it’s not like they are going crazy. Those rookies had a heap of clutch plays too, the internet just wasn’t nuts at that stage with YouTube and highlights every single night of the same players, they were pre-occupied by a competitive league and everything Lebron was doing which isn’t as relevant now with the Warriors, allowing more highlights and vision of younger, up and coming players.

Also, Luka is a perimeter player, while those guys were all bigs. The playing style of perimeter players/ball handlers are perceived to be more visually pleasing and relative to their talent, they are more popular on average. That's not his fault. Another thing, most of these guys were older, some significantly than Luka. Just thought I add this to make it a little more objective. I agree that several other rookies had more impressive seasons since 1980, although, again, most of them were older than him. I don't think he should be an All-Star, but I wouldn't be shocked if he gets close just because how popular he already is. His playing style/skill level makes him must-see TV.

his age doesn't say anything about the years of pro ball he played too. he simply has an advantage right now.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

I love Kevin but how is it possible for you to be higher on Kevin than Trae? Trae has potential to be one of the great PG of all time. Kevin doesn't have that potential as a SG. Curious to know?

Because I think the bolded is one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

You're one of those guys huh...

Brought into the Wrestlemania hype of Doncic v. Young, brought a couple posters, a finger foam and gonna carry that fandom energy to the graveyard but not so fast my friend



Come to my classroom, grab a seat and let me tell you about the impact that a master sorcerer named Trae Young has recently blessed this beautiful game with.The game that one Dr. James Naismith created at a local YMCA for the youth just as yourself.

Let's start with the last 8 games for the Atlanta Hawks for Trae Young:



Trae has been playing extremely well on both ends in the last 8 games. I am perfectly fine with him. Since Huerter been inserted into the starting lineup, Trae has been much much better. Especially on defense.

16/3.5/8.3/1.3 on a 47/50/77.8 split

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

per36 his numbers are 19.7/4.3/10.1/1.5 with a 5.3 TOV rate in the last 8 games.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&LastNGames=8

Compare this to other ATG PG's their rookie year:

per36 is elite for a rookie true PG at 19.2/9.1/3.5/1 on a 39.6/27.5/78.2 split

CP3 - 16/8/5
Stockton - 11/10/2.5
Kidd - 12.5/8.4/5.8
Payton - 9.4/8.5/4
Curry- 17.4/6/4.4
Nash- 11.2/7.3/3
Zeke- 18.1/8.4/3.1

Trae is right on track.

Trae is having a TREMENDOUS rookie season for a true PG and one of his prototype. Is it perfect? No but it is much better than people are making it seem. Being a prized rookie PG is extremely hard. Ask DeAaron Fox. He has tremendously improved of late, especially on defense.

Trae's most amazing skill is his passing but his most underrated outside of his really good lateral quickness that no one talks about is his quickness and acceleration that is making him one of the most dangerous slashers in the NBA which is really how his playmaking is elite even if his passing still needs some work accuracy wise.

In the last 8 games, Trae is 3rd in the NBA with drives 19.3 with a higher FG% than James Harden at 43.6%. 20% of his drives lead to an assist and his assist rate is 3.9 which tops all players and his turnover rate is a lowly .9. which is pretty good. Trae is a monster. People love comparing him to Nash. He really is the next Isiah "Zeke" Thomas with insane court vision and range like Steph Curry. He is his own man.

His defense has been improving like cats and dogs. I think changing the personnel and him really focusing on assignments has turned him from a defensive superscrub into someone with potential. This was a man who literally didn't want to get in defensive stance at times and would just like players score so he can go back on offense. The biggest change I've seen from Trae is a mental one. He adjusted mentally. I really think this Doncic thing is getting to Ayton and Trae. I have never seen two players improve so much in a short span. Think about this, this is something John Wall still hasn't done yet. I can't recall the last time I've seen this. This quickly I mean. Maybe rookie Wade in the 2nd half?

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

You left out a few stats:

4.8 TOV, 97 ORtg, 116 DTtg

-5 BPM, -.8 VORP

Undersized, small frame, bad shot selection. No thanks.

[spanishninja]

Ayton is already much better than Kanter, especially on D. (stats)
Ayton has showed the best quality he could possibly show, an ability to learn and improve, this guy is smart and aware and he seems to have coaches that are showing him the right things. Suns fans should be very excited.

But here's the thing: like I've been saying, the reason to pick Doncic over Ayton as a GM is a question of position and rarity. In a world where you can just reach in the market and sign a vet stretch big like Brook Lopez for $3m, I just would not invest too much on a C. Based on recent history if you want to be a top 4 team all you need is a Capela, at most, teams go to the finals with Zaza and Tristan Thomson. And there are Cs everywhere to pick from.

But, playmaking wings who can create a whole offense for you out of nothing? Handle and move the ball, find open teammates and create a decent shot at any point in time? Play multiple positions, switch on different players, help out on rebounds? That's basketball today. Ask any GM, no team can have too many of that kind of player, some teams would have 10 of them if they could, and they have currently none.

I keep comparing Doncic to Khris Middleton, Khris is not an elite player, at most a borderline all star who never actually made an ASG. But he is a playmaking wing like the one I described. Khris will be on the market this summer and talks are he will go for $25m+ per year. And Doncic as a teenager is already better than him at pretty much everything. That's nuts.

Doncic is the rarest commodity in basketball right now.

basef on what we have seen already, Kanter is Ayton's FLOOR. time will tell where his ceiling is Shawn Kemp or David Robinson. i want to see the work he puts in offseason after losing ROTY.

[King Ken]

You left out a few stats:

4.8 TOV, 97 ORtg, 116 DTtg

-5 BPM, -.8 VORP

Undersized, small frame, bad shot selection. No thanks.

Every poster here is capable of thoughtless, glass half empty, posts.

3.4 TOV for a wing, .437 FG%, Pillsbury frame, 4th year pro, Barely beats people off the dribble, Euro Tyreke Evans Jr. No Thanks!



But honestly, if you watch and breakdown Trae's game of late, you will see a different player.

One that plays to his strengths, plays consistent defense and one that causes havoc all game long and is relentless. He had 8 TO today and was one of our only players with a + rating. He is that critical to our success now that he stopped jacking bad shots. He's as good as any rookie PG I have EVER seen if we are just taking his recent performances into account. I would say the same for Ayton in terms of rookie bigs with 1 or 0 years of college experience. Clearly, not near Shaq, Tim and guys with three to four years of college under their belt but for a 0 to 1 year experience kids, I am wildly impressed with Ayton and Young.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

You left out a few stats:

4.8 TOV, 97 ORtg, 116 DTtg

-5 BPM, -.8 VORP

Undersized, small frame, bad shot selection. No thanks.

Every poster here is capable of thoughtless, glass half empty, posts.

3.4 TOV for a wing, .437 FG%, Pillsbury frame, 4th year pro, Barely beats people off the dribble, Euro Tyreke Evans Jr. No Thanks!



But honestly, if you watch and breakdown Trae's game of late, you will see a different player.

One that plays to his strengths, plays consistent defense and one that causes havoc all game long and is relentless. He had 8 TO today and was one of our only players with a + rating. He is that critical to our success now that he stopped jacking bad shots. He's as good as any rookie PG I have EVER seen if we are just taking his recent performances into account. I would say the same for Ayton in terms of rookie bigs with 1 or 0 years of college experience. Clearly, not near Shaq, Tim and guys with three to four years of college under their belt but for a 0 to 1 year experience kids, I am wildly impressed with Ayton and Young.

Luka has a 2.5 BPM. Young has a -5 BPM...