#3 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[trex_8063]

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Wilt Chamberlain
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Nate Thurmond
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
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[cecilthesheep]

Edit: Vote changed to Nate Thurmond, for reasons described on the next page.

***

I consider the next few candidates so impossibly close to each other that this is just splitting hairs, but I'll cast my vote for Wilt Chamberlain. His dominance as a defender is often underrated, because his rival was Russell, but I think Wilt was actually a better defensive player than he was an offensive player. And he maintained his defensive dominance throughout pretty much his entire career.

[90sAllDecade]

Happy New Year guys! I might throw in a rare post in this thread. I just have a question before I vote,

What is the argument that David Robinson is a better defensive C than Ben Wallace?

I'm reviewing the numbers and checking film, is it because he's regarded as a better overall player? I get that, and agree, but defensively I think Ben is better right now.

I can be convinced and my mind can be changed, I might post arguments myself when I have time later.

[bledredwine]

Glad to know I’m not insane,

I was literally just considering choosing Ben wallace over D Rob.

And honestly, Dikembi was a monster as well.

[bledredwine]

Ugh.

This is difficult.

Vote David Robinson. He was so strong yet agile. He’s one of the few I saw block Jordan, and at least on one occasion he did it more than once in a game. He was just too mobile not to vote for him. He’d be a versatile defender in any era.

[bledredwine]

After this choice, the next few choices between Dikembi Wallace Kareem Zo Dwight Wilt are going to suck! I don’t know if I can do it! This is fun- there are so many great defenders here.

Next I’d probably go

Wallace
Mutombo
Ewing
Kareem
Dwight
Thurmond
Zo
Walton?? Not sure.

[bledredwine]

Happy New Year guys! I might throw in a rare post in this thread. I just have a question before I vote,

What is the argument that David Robinson is a better defensive C than Ben Wallace?

I'm reviewing the numbers and checking film, is it because he's regarded as a better overall player? I get that, and agree, but defensively I think Ben is better right now.

I can be convinced and my mind can be changed, I might post arguments myself when I have time later.

D Rob was better on the break, a quick and smart (better) help defender, and could stick with guards/sf’s effectively for a center. Wallace was so good at limiting his matchups though and was an excellent paint defender as well. It’s tough.

[kendogg]

Here's where it starts to get really tough. I am leaning towards Wilt on this pick as I think his consistency issues are a bit overstated. And like Shaq, his defensive presence goes beyond stats. Those guys were immovable objects. I'm probably higher on Wilt than most here, but I feel like someone has to make his case since he deserves consideration. I think you could put Wilt in any era and he could lead the league in rebounds and blocks. He was also fast (track runner). Maybe the fastest center ever. His stride was just ridiculous. Now quickness, especially lateral quickness, he's more in the human realm here. But he could also cover the paint in a single stride. He could palm a 16lb bowling ball and could catch blocks one handed mid air. Only person I've seen capable of blocking dunks consistently and I think he held back at times on blocking dunks because he didn't want to break peoples hands. But anyone thinking they could dunk with Wilt anywhere near (ANYONE, including the big dunking centers like Bellamy) would be knocked on their ass or worse.

Unfortunately there's not a lot of advanced stats for Wilt's era. We do know is that in terms of center talent, it's arguably the most center talent of any era (6 hall of fame centers in the 60's) except perhaps early 90's, where there was 4+ legit superstars (Dream, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing) so I don't feel like his era should hold him back either.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[penbeast0]

Wilt was the most incredible physical specimen of all time and yes, his defensive skills were superior to his offensive ones. As we are including defensive rebounding as defense he is certainly a legit candidate here. His downside wasn't so much consistency as an unwillingness to defend out on the floor although you can see how he didn't always sprint up and down the floor since he played ridiculous minutes even for his day (he averaged over 45 minutes a game for his entire career!!!). Some of the quotes from his peers in the other great Terry Pluto book, "Tall Tales," talk about this. Mutombo and Robinson are the other two giants, DRob much quicker but with less of a solid base and the shortest career of the 3. I have Ben Wallace a bit behind Deke and DRob as he didn't have the size advantage and didn't look as good when he moved on from Detroit. Wilt, as always, is tough to pigeonhole, his ridiculous numbers are matched by an equally ridiculous impact.

For now, I am going with David Robinson.

[Jaivl]

ITO of accumulative career value, I just have to vote Wilt here. Unlike his offense, I am totally sold by his defense: length, mobility and willingness to consistently protect the rim.

[pandrade83]

Give me Ben Wallace over David Robinson by a nose; the hair splitting component for me is that the defensive units Wallace anchored held up better in the playoffs over Robinson's.

I'm fairly convinced that the guys I'll be taking are (order still not determined; the margins are razor thin):

Deke
Drob
Wilt
Thurmond
Kareem
Ewing
Ben Wallace (as previously noted)
Howard

[kendogg]

I think defensive rebounding certainly counts as defense. I've been voting as such for the entire project.

Comparing teams directly is hard because even a GOAT defender is going to struggle to look as good as a whole team. Case in point 90's Knicks vs 90's Rockets. Most would say Dream is a slightly better defender but the Knicks were a better defensive team. You can still see the impact they had on defensive lineups though, with various stats at least in the modern era where advanced stats started to be tracked.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Grit, defensive intelligence, visual proscessing, strength, peak motivation, consistent motivation,.

Those are qualities that might make me choose a slower, shorter center defensive center over a faster, taller defensive center.


Pre injury Robinson was was fast and tall but he seemed to be missing something that post injury Robinson was better at. But post injury Robinson no longer had his peak athleticism. Post injury Robinson had Pop and teammates that were coachable.

Young Wilt was clearly a great athlete as in on the short list of athletic centers with Robinson and Russell. I think older Wilt's athleticism is exaggerated. There is so little game film of young Wilt. Wilt did not beat Russell until 1967 and some media questioned Wilt's defense and team play. Media opinion has always been almost as subject to distorted perceptions as general opinion.

Robinson, and Wilt may have looked better on defense if their teams looked better on defense. Who does not go on auto-pilot at work sometimes especially when their coworkers are being unmotivated or selfish. I guess it is tough luck for all-time defensive center candidates if they were not in situations that helped them to be as great as they could be.

Ben Wallace was in a good situation on that Champion Pistons team but Ben Wallace also helped to create that good situation. Ben Wallace was mobile. Ben Wallace had the lateral quickness, defensive IQ and fast reactions. With Robinson I visualize his speed in straightish lines going forward more than I visualize his speed moving sideways. I am not saying Robinson did not go sideways as well as Wallace but that is not what I picture Robinson doing. I know Ben Wallace is a a fast very athletic center but his muscle and look be somehow causing me to underrate his speed. Maybe Wallace is in Robinson's class thletically but Wallace is missing the height.

Wallace vs Dwight Howard. I like Wallace better. Is it the ring? I hope it isn't the hair.

I think Ben Wallace had a better lateral motion, a higher basket ball IQ, and less tunnel vision than Dwight Howard.

Dikembe, Dikembe, Dikembe, is he the best of the rest? I definitively believe Dikembe is better than Nate Thurmond.But was Dikembe better than Ben Wallace, Robinson and Wilt? Dikembe is not more mobile than Ben Wallace. Height is probably the only thing that makes Dikembe better than Ben Wallace but I do think Dikembe is better than Ben Wallace.

Is Dikembe's defensive IQ better than Robinson's and Wilt's? I think so. There is something I like better about Dikembe than Robinson and Wilt but what is it?

I am leaning towards Mutombo at as the 3rd best defensive center

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

1994 Jazz vs Robinson game 4

Watch on YouTube

1994 Jazz vs Mutombo game 5

Watch on YouTube

105:50-52
Two blocks by Mutombo. OK it's just mechanical Felton Spencer and and too short Corbin being blocked
Felton Spencer was big. Robinson, Dikembe and Karl Malone don't look so big next to Felton.

31:02 Interesting off the ball wrestling match between Karl Malone and Mutombo. No call even though Mutombo holds Malone and Malone seems to get upset and throws Mutombo and himself to the floor. This has little to do with Dikembe's defense. I am more interested in the refs here.

In Robinson vs the Jazz, Robinson was sort of passive on defense and left defending Karl Malone to Rodman. Rodman was not strong enough to stop Malone. Robinson was on Felton Spencer and was fre to roam but did not help aggressively. Robinson was the NBA scoring leader and may have been saving himself for offense. Also Stockton will find the open man.

1994 Jazz vs Hakeem game 4

Watch on YouTube

[Dr Positivity]

Being consistent with the criteria at other positions, I think Big Ben shouldn't go here based on longevity. He really has a 6 year or so run (01-06), had solid boxscore but underwhelming +/- data his first Bulls year, but it goes downhill quickly after that. Compared to Mutombo's longevity for example it's not even close. Robinson longevity is also strong considering in addition to 7 pre injury years, he still provides a lot of value in the 6 years with Duncan, DPOY level in the early ones, then very good even until he retired. Wilt, Thurmond, etc. have over a decade of strong play. I think these candidates are so strong that Wallace should arguably be out of the top 5 based on longevity, even though I rate his peak top 3.

Mutombo has the best DRAPM support, but Robinson's in the years we have are superb as well. Robinson is most athletic guarding the perimeter. Thurmond is known as the strongest post defender. I don't like Wilt getting in before Thurmond who was more of a defensive specialist than him energy wise. It's not confirmed that Wilt is the better shotblocker. Thurmond claimed he blocked the second most shots in history after Russell and has a handful of 10 block games recorded by newspapers.

Vote Nate Thurmond based on having the X factor of GOAT level post defense, in addition to having an argument against these other players as a shotblocker/team defender as well. But I don't feel good about it

[Vladimir777]

I wish I knew a bit more about the history of b-ball, so that I could vote in these threads, but just know I love what you guys are doing! You should do more contests and threads like these.

[SkyHookFTW]

I can't ignore Wilt's impact here and I can't fault him for not always defending the perimeter when he wasn't asked to do so due to scheme and the way defense was played at that time. Even when he lost his mobility after his injury he still had a great vertical, super strength, and was still elite as a rebounder, post defender and rim protector. When Wilt was in the game the other side didn't get many second chances off a miss, as Wilt usually scooped up the ball if it was anywhere near the basket. Wilt is one of those very rare cases where a severe injury didn't impact his defensive game much at all--he was that good of an athlete. Even his peers said as much. How many players could anchor a championship defense at the end of a career after a severe injury the way he did? Only an elite defender/athlete could. If I didn't see it for myself I'd be skeptical, but I did see it. Another factor, a minor one but interesting: Wilt played a higher percentage of his games against HoF centers than any other center in NBA history. My vote: Wilt Chamberlain.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

1994 Jazz vs Robinson game 4

Watch on YouTube

1994 Jazz vs Mutombo game 5

Watch on YouTube

This game end of regulation and overtime has good drama. A nice stereotype Stockton Malone pass jut before Malone fouls out.

105:50-52
Two blocks by Mutombo. OK it's just mechanical Felton Spencer and and too short Corbin being blocked
Felton Spencer was big. Robinson, Dikembe and Karl Malone don't look so big next to Felton.

108:52 about
I like the way Mutombo picks up anybody. Some coach might disagree
Mutombo picks up Stockton crossing below the basket. Stockton makes an interior pass. Motumbo immediately is up trying to block a shot in the area that Stockton and Mutombo just left. Foul on Mutombo's teamate Stith also trying to defend. The point is how engaged Motumbo is following the play as the ball and people bounce arround like a ball in a pinball machine. (Metaphor lost on young people? What's a pinball machine?)

31:02 Interesting off the ball wrestling match between Karl Malone and Mutombo. No call even though Mutombo holds Malone and Malone seems to get upset and throws Mutombo and himself to the floor. This has little to do with Dikembe's defense. I am more interested in the refs here.

In Robinson vs the Jazz, Robinson was sort of passive on defense and left defending Karl Malone to Rodman. Rodman was not strong enough to stop Malone. Robinson was on Felton Spencer and was fre to roam but did not help aggressively. Robinson was the NBA scoring leader and may have been saving himself for offense. Also Stockton will find the open man.

1994 Jazz vs Hakeem game 4

Watch on YouTube

[iggymcfrack]

This has to be David Robinson for me. Led top 5 defenses pretty much every year of his career except for the year he got hurt where the Spurs finished dead last in defense. Part of the reason I didn’t vote the first 2 spots is because I feel like Robinson, Olajuwon, and Russell are almost impossible to differentiate among the best defenders ever at the center position. I don’t think anyone else is close to them.

[cecilthesheep]

Happy New Year guys! I might throw in a rare post in this thread. I just have a question before I vote,

What is the argument that David Robinson is a better defensive C than Ben Wallace?

I'm reviewing the numbers and checking film, is it because he's regarded as a better overall player? I get that, and agree, but defensively I think Ben is better right now.

I can be convinced and my mind can be changed, I might post arguments myself when I have time later.

Longevity and physical tools. Mostly longevity. Ben had the shortest prime of any of these top-tier candidates, and was relatively unremarkable during his non-prime years (compared to Robinson's post-injury career when he was still a top level defender, for instance). I don't even prioritize longevity that highly, but with Ben it's just such a big gap that it's the deciding factor for me.