2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[slick_watts]

oh no

You said we should revisit it, bruh. That's what I'm doing. Still the top rated defense in the league, season is basically half over. No Roberson. Looks like they have defied the odds and replaced his incredible impact......by adding a backup C on the minimum, schroeder, and a pu pu platter of diallo/tlc/burton/Nader. Not a good look for the value of your boy.

[spearsy23]

I wonder if that has anything to do with how Westbrook has been playing offensively. Gotta love post stats without thinking about them at all. If Westbrook were playing like he did last year, or his whole career, do you think they'd be 20th? It's pretty clear, tbolt.

Wait, so is the offense free flowing or not? Now you say its not because of Russ' Are you even trying today?

Try to stick with me here. The offense looks much better. Westbrook isn't playing half as good as last year. Imagine if he was! The fact they have dipped in offensive rating is a direct result of Westbrooks play. Interpret the stats you post, and think critically about it . They can look better but not be rated as high, when their star is not performing close to his normal levels. Their record indicates this, as it's the first time I can remember them consistently winning with Russ not playing well offensively.

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

[Pillendreher]

I've been told for years how Roberson was the reason for the teams great defense and was such a valuable piece. Well, how hard was it to fix the bench D? They brought in a backup center on a minimum deal, Schroeder, and drafted diallo, rendering Robersons absence into a complete non issue. What are they missing that Roberson brought?

ANDRE ROBERSON WAS A STARTER NOT A BENCH PLAYER.

To your other ridiculous comments, I'm not switching any argument, just hammering home that Roberson hasn't been missed.

Oh, "hammering home" are we? That's good to know.

A worse 3 man rating with Ferguson, who isn't very good, hasn't hurt the team. They are one of the best in the league. Do you think any other playoff team would be playing Ferguson these minutes? What's it say about the great Andre Roberson when he can be replaced by Ferguson, with minimal to no negative impact. Still the top rated defense. You guys simply were duped by the okc media re: Robersons impact over the years.

Are you seriously this daft or just deliberately ignoring what's right in front of you? If the team is WORSE defensively when it comes to lineups Roberson was featured in, the team is getting hurt by Andre Roberson's absence. There's no two ways around that.

[hardenASG13]

grant replacing melo on defense has been a revelation to be sure. probably even offensively too since he possesses a synergy with westbrook that melo did not. the crux of the debasement of andre roberson's contributions, for me, boils down to what degree of credit can we reasonably assign terrance ferguson for the maintenance of starters dominance in dre's absence. ferguson isn't really contributing much on offense, objectively less than roberson even. on defense he's improved and superior to the non-dre options (himself included) from last season, but nowhere near dre by any measure i've seen.

the improvement on defense with the starters sans 'dre is more a statement of melo's 2017-18 value relative to 2018-19 grant than anything. tbh i never thought the gap could be large enough to offset losing 'dre but it seems i was wrong about that. this season isn't an indictment on 'dre's value, it cements it considering the defense was just as good last year with melo in the rotation and melo is out of the league now.

as great as the defense has been and the starters have performed, i don't think it begs the question "is 'dre valuable?" from normal people. instead, it begs the question "how good would this team be with a healthy 'dre replacing ferguson?".

the answer is probably a lot better.

Agree, ferguson isn't as good a defender as Roberson. The fact remains, the teams defense, though, is still very good, which is what matters. I've laughed at you guys for years for accrediting Roberson as a miracle worker for the D. He was one guy! This season goes to show the team can go on without him, and still be elite defensively. That's because defense is a 5 person thing, not a 1 person thing. Precisely the reason other teams don't play defenders who can't score major minutes. It's OKCs thing (including ferguson) and leads to alot of the frustration you see from clowns on this board, despite the team being great in a small market.

The upgrade from melo to grant has been huge, no question (another reason it's hard to take some on here serious, when up till about 15 games ago they claimed he was lost on defense But just blocked shots. That was a lazy, untrue narrative which had been false for a long time.) But melo was just one year. They wasted lineups with kd/ibaka by unnecessarily including Roberson, when they would've been fine defensively, which I've stated over and over again for basically Robersons whole career. He wasn't needed, and easily replaceable. This year is showing that.

[hardenASG13]

Wait, so is the offense free flowing or not? Now you say its not because of Russ' Are you even trying today?

Try to stick with me here. The offense looks much better. Westbrook isn't playing half as good as last year. Imagine if he was! The fact they have dipped in offensive rating is a direct result of Westbrooks play. Interpret the stats you post, and think critically about it . They can look better but not be rated as high, when their star is not performing close to his normal levels. Their record indicates this, as it's the first time I can remember them consistently winning with Russ not playing well offensively.

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

If Westbrook were shooting like last year, would teams be able to defend him and the team the same? Can you explain how they'd be 14th definitively if Westbrook were shooting well? You'll at least get an AND1 for trying probably

[Pillendreher]

Wait, so is the offense free flowing or not? Now you say its not because of Russ' Are you even trying today?

Try to stick with me here. The offense looks much better. Westbrook isn't playing half as good as last year. Imagine if he was! The fact they have dipped in offensive rating is a direct result of Westbrooks play. Interpret the stats you post, and think critically about it . They can look better but not be rated as high, when their star is not performing close to his normal levels. Their record indicates this, as it's the first time I can remember them consistently winning with Russ not playing well offensively.

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

It's the bench. Per cleaningtheglass, the team would rank 4th offensively on a team level if you removed the bench minutes.

[spearsy23]

Try to stick with me here. The offense looks much better. Westbrook isn't playing half as good as last year. Imagine if he was! The fact they have dipped in offensive rating is a direct result of Westbrooks play. Interpret the stats you post, and think critically about it . They can look better but not be rated as high, when their star is not performing close to his normal levels. Their record indicates this, as it's the first time I can remember them consistently winning with Russ not playing well offensively.

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

If Westbrook were shooting like last year, would teams be able to defend him and the team the same? Can you explain how they'd be 14th definitively if Westbrook were shooting well? You'll at least get an AND1 for trying probably

Uh, yes? Did you miss Westbrook not being a good shooter last year?

[ThunderBolt]

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

If Westbrook were shooting like last year, would teams be able to defend him and the team the same? Can you explain how they'd be 14th definitively if Westbrook were shooting well? You'll at least get an AND1 for trying probably

Uh, yes? Did you miss Westbrook not being a good shooter last year?

+1

[slick_watts]

The fact remains, the teams defense, though, is still very good, which is what matters. I've laughed at you guys for years for accrediting Roberson as a miracle worker for the D. He was one guy! This season goes to show the team can go on without him, and still be elite defensively.

i mean, he is a miracle worker on defense. the defense was elite with him last year and horrible without him, because the team couldn't hide melo without his presence. the same was true during the kanter seasons. there's thousands of minutes of evidence for this.

you want to have your cake and eat it too. the defense being elite right now doesn't mean andre roberson isn't an elite defensive player. andre roberson being an elite defensive player doesn't mean an elite defense can't be constructed without him. adding a healthy andre roberson back to the team in place of terrance ferguson would do what, in your opinion?

But melo was just one year. They wasted lineups with kd/ibaka by unnecessarily including Roberson, when they would've been fine defensively, which I've stated over and over again for basically Robersons whole career. He wasn't needed, and easily replaceable. This year is showing that.

but they weren't. they replaced andre roberson with dion waiters and the lineups were worse. we have actual data on this, bruh. you can't just ignore it lol. every option the thunder tried with andre roberson unavailable was worse. and i'm sure you were on board with every one of those.

you can't twist this argument in your favor here. you were a melo supporter. this season doesn't prove andre roberson's defensive value is busted, it proves that melo was extraordinary toxic for the defense last season. so much so that replacing him with a decent defensive player (jerami grant) largely offset replacing an elite defensive player (andre robreson) with an average to below-average one (terrance ferguson).

this season says that andre roberson's positive impact on a defense is about the same as carmelo anthony's negative impact on a defense. i don't hold out much hope for andre roberson returning back to normal. but if he does-- watch out nba!

[hardenASG13]

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

If Westbrook were shooting like last year, would teams be able to defend him and the team the same? Can you explain how they'd be 14th definitively if Westbrook were shooting well? You'll at least get an AND1 for trying probably

Uh, yes? Did you miss Westbrook not being a good shooter last year?

Westbrook was way better offensively last season. You arguing otherwise? He's a pretty important piece of the teams offense...

[spearsy23]

If Westbrook were shooting like last year, would teams be able to defend him and the team the same? Can you explain how they'd be 14th definitively if Westbrook were shooting well? You'll at least get an AND1 for trying probably

Uh, yes? Did you miss Westbrook not being a good shooter last year?

Westbrook was way better offensively last season. You arguing otherwise? He's a pretty important piece of the teams offense...

We just went over this. If you account for the difference between Russ this year and last year we move up to 14th offensively, still significantly worse than last year.

[hardenASG13]

Try to stick with me here. The offense looks much better. Westbrook isn't playing half as good as last year. Imagine if he was! The fact they have dipped in offensive rating is a direct result of Westbrooks play. Interpret the stats you post, and think critically about it . They can look better but not be rated as high, when their star is not performing close to his normal levels. Their record indicates this, as it's the first time I can remember them consistently winning with Russ not playing well offensively.

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

It's the bench. Per cleaningtheglass, the team would rank 4th offensively on a team level if you removed the bench minutes.

1. Can you define bench there? Is that when 5 bench players are in at once?

2. Are you saying Westbrook struggling heavily, playing much worse offensively, isn't having an impact on the teams offense? Do you disagree they would be better offensively if Russ were playing to his normal standards? When he gets it going let's see if the teams o rating improves.....

[hardenASG13]

Uh, yes? Did you miss Westbrook not being a good shooter last year?

Westbrook was way better offensively last season. You arguing otherwise? He's a pretty important piece of the teams offense...

We just went over this. If you account for the difference between Russ this year and last year we move up to 14th offensively, still significantly worse than last year.

We didn't go over anything. I asked how you came to that conclusion and you explained nothing

[spearsy23]

Westbrook was way better offensively last season. You arguing otherwise? He's a pretty important piece of the teams offense...

We just went over this. If you account for the difference between Russ this year and last year we move up to 14th offensively, still significantly worse than last year.

We didn't go over anything. I asked how you came to that conclusion and you explained nothing

Did you actually try reading? What are the difference between last year's Russ and this year's Russ offensively?

[Pillendreher]

If Westbrook was shooting the exact same percentages as last year we'd be 14th in o-rating.

It's the bench. Per cleaningtheglass, the team would rank 4th offensively on a team level if you removed the bench minutes.

1. Can you define bench there? Is that when 5 bench players are in at once?

2. Are you saying Westbrook struggling heavily, playing much worse offensively, isn't having an impact on the teams offense? Do you disagree they would be better offensively if Russ were playing to his normal standards? When he gets it going let's see if the teams o rating improves.....

1. It includes the following lineups:

-Felton+Noel without Schröder
-Schröder+Noel without Felton
-Felton+Schröder+Noel

2.Of course they'd be better. I don't think anybody is saying otherwise.

[hardenASG13]

The fact remains, the teams defense, though, is still very good, which is what matters. I've laughed at you guys for years for accrediting Roberson as a miracle worker for the D. He was one guy! This season goes to show the team can go on without him, and still be elite defensively.

i mean, he is a miracle worker on defense. the defense was elite with him last year and horrible without him, because the team couldn't hide melo without his presence. the same was true during the kanter seasons. there's thousands of minutes of evidence for this.

you want to have your cake and eat it too. the defense being elite right now doesn't mean andre roberson isn't an elite defensive player. andre roberson being an elite defensive player doesn't mean an elite defense can't be constructed without him. adding a healthy andre roberson back to the team in place of terrance ferguson would do what, in your opinion?

But melo was just one year. They wasted lineups with kd/ibaka by unnecessarily including Roberson, when they would've been fine defensively, which I've stated over and over again for basically Robersons whole career. He wasn't needed, and easily replaceable. This year is showing that.

but they weren't. they replaced andre roberson with dion waiters and the lineups were worse. we have actual data on this, bruh. you can't just ignore it lol. every option the thunder tried with andre roberson unavailable was worse. and i'm sure you were on board with every one of those.

you can't twist this argument in your favor here. you were a melo supporter. this season doesn't prove andre roberson's defensive value is busted, it proves that melo was extraordinary toxic for the defense last season. so much so that replacing him with a decent defensive player (jerami grant) largely offset replacing an elite defensive player (andre robreson) with an average to below-average one (terrance ferguson).

this season says that andre roberson's positive impact on a defense is about the same as carmelo anthony's negative impact on a defense. i don't hold out much hope for andre roberson returning back to normal. but if he does-- watch out nba!

It's hard to say what adding him would do. While he is the superior defender, and they both contribute minimally on offense , I think top rated d without him is pretty good. The team would be in a similar position with him as they are now. The token **** guy at sg that is only expected to defend is pretty interchangeable, as long as that guy is serviceable defensively.

Melo certainly killed the D last year. But to say they have somehow managed to construct an elite defense by adding a backup center, a guard (Schroeder) who most on here hate for some reason and isn't an elite defender, and starting grant seems like it was a pretty easy solution this whole time. They never should've needed or played Roberson as much. I also don't know why you always bring up waiters. Like it or not, the 2016 team that underachieved all year was at its peak in the playoffs when waiters miraculously played well, which is what it's all about. Regular season advanced stats don't win titles. You have to hit your ceiling in the playoffs, or just be the warriors.

[hardenASG13]

It's the bench. Per cleaningtheglass, the team would rank 4th offensively on a team level if you removed the bench minutes.

1. Can you define bench there? Is that when 5 bench players are in at once?

2. Are you saying Westbrook struggling heavily, playing much worse offensively, isn't having an impact on the teams offense? Do you disagree they would be better offensively if Russ were playing to his normal standards? When he gets it going let's see if the teams o rating improves.....

1.Felton+Noel without Schröder
2.Schröder+Noel without Felton
3.Felton+Schröder+Noel

2.Of course they'd be better. I don't think anybody is saying otherwise.

1. So they aren't good when Felton is in?

2. TBOLT was in a sense when he cited their offensive rating being worse without thinking about why it's worse. Just pointing out that the 2 are directly correlated, he was having a hard time following, went with the old eye test line

[hardenASG13]

We just went over this. If you account for the difference between Russ this year and last year we move up to 14th offensively, still significantly worse than last year.

We didn't go over anything. I asked how you came to that conclusion and you explained nothing

Did you actually try reading? What are the difference between last year's Russ and this year's Russ offensively?

You have to be kidding or clueless.....

[ThunderBolt]

1. Can you define bench there? Is that when 5 bench players are in at once?

2. Are you saying Westbrook struggling heavily, playing much worse offensively, isn't having an impact on the teams offense? Do you disagree they would be better offensively if Russ were playing to his normal standards? When he gets it going let's see if the teams o rating improves.....

1.Felton+Noel without Schröder
2.Schröder+Noel without Felton
3.Felton+Schröder+Noel

2.Of course they'd be better. I don't think anybody is saying otherwise.

1. So they aren't good when Felton is in?

2. TBOLT was in a sense when he cited their offensive rating being worse without thinking about why it's worse. Just pointing out that the 2 are directly correlated, he was having a hard time following, went with the old eye test line

Uh no. I simply stated a fact. We aren't as good offensively as we were last year despite you saying the offense was more free flowing. Then you started back peddling.

[spearsy23]

We didn't go over anything. I asked how you came to that conclusion and you explained nothing

Did you actually try reading? What are the difference between last year's Russ and this year's Russ offensively?

You have to be kidding or clueless.....

Let's try this again, what is the difference between Westbrook last year and this year offensively?