Westbrooks shooting

[getrichordie]

The man is leading the Nba in assists.Thats what a true point guard does right?

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When I say "true" point-guard, what I mean is methodical point guards... these are your Chris Pauls, Rajon Rondos, Ricky Rubios...

Westbrook is not that. Westbrook is an albatross point-guard who isn't going to kill you methodically; he's going to kill you with athleticism...

How you are getting your assists doesn't matter so long as you are impacting the game and creating buckets for yourself or others. This is something that Westbrook has a hard time balancing. Even if he isn't shooting well, he's going to keep shooting instead of taking the more methodical approach of feeding his teammates and see who can catch fire... and well, that's the difference between a "true point" and an athletic 2-guard playing point.

EDIT: Here's a nice little post that might help explain what I mean (this is from over a year ago).

Finally, the big one: Westbrook. Let's reduce his ridiculous physical gifts to average levels and what does he have left? Not much shooting, probably can't run an offense all that well, will struggle to create the type of space he needs to play-make. He's just not very good. The problem here is that he isn't much of a SG or SF either; he's sorta position-less. So what is he exactly? At a certain point, we have to acknowledge that the traditional (and arbitrary) player designations are pointless. Was Oscar Robertson a point guard? Everyone seems to think that he is (e.g. ESPN had him as the #2 greatest PG). And if Oscar Robertson was a point guard, why can't Westbrook be considered one? He isn't "traditional" or "real/pure" in the sense of "boring" or "bland", but the reasons why he isn't are also why he's an amazing game-changer. Players like Westbrook and Curry are reshaping the conceptions of point-guard play, of positions in general. Traditions change; that which is considered to be "true" in this moment of time may not be so 30 years into the future.

We will have to disagree I guess. Dont get me wrong Westbrook has to play better. Everthing in this post could also be said about Schroder but except is isnt as athletic as Westbrook even with Westbrooks decline and doesnt even look to pass but time and time again to over look it and take up for him.Why?

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The reason I take up for Schroder is because people do not understand the extent of how much his current circumstances and his past circumstances have affected his numbers. People often look at how a player is playing now and if he isn't being a major outlier in 1 or 2 statistical categories, he's labeled as bad. Sometimes it is all about context.

Oladipo could never be the player he is today if he continued playing Westbrook... I'm not saying Schroder is on Oladipo's level but circumstances are similar. Schroder is a lot better than most people think and this where I and others disagree. A lot of other people trust numbers and analytics and that is all good and well but it doesn't tell the whole story. Context does. You have to understand the past to understand the present and the future.

I trust my own two eyeballs and my own understanding of the game of basketball. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right and that's just how things go sometimes. You win some, you lose some. But from everything I've seen from Schroder, I can tell you that Schroder is unequivocally way better than people think he is. He just hasn't found a "home" so to speak...

[SecondTake]

Per 36 minutes Shroder's assist numbers are nearly two less than last year. His problem isn't so much that he doesn't look to pass, it's that whenever he does the bench bricks it.

[Pillendreher]

Per 36 minutes Shroder's assist numbers are nearly two less than last year. His problem isn't so much that he doesn't look to pass, it's that whenever he does the bench bricks it.

I can't even remeber the last time Schröder set somebody up for a good jumpshot. For crying out loud, Patterson has started posting up as a way to get the ball with Schröder on the floor.

Schröder needs to stop the ballhoggery. He's not nearly good enough for it.

[getrichordie]

Per 36 minutes Shroder's assist numbers are nearly two less than last year. His problem isn't so much that he doesn't look to pass, it's that whenever he does the bench bricks it.

I can't even remeber the last time Schröder set somebody up for a good jumpshot. For crying out loud, Patterson has started posting up as a way to get the ball with Schröder on the floor.

Schröder needs to stop the ballhoggery. He's not nearly good enough for it.

You must not be watching that closely... Patterson just had a game where he hit 2 3s off of a Schroder set up. This was in part because of a different action we started running to get Patterson some space in transition.

EDIT: It was the Dallas game. We were probably out running their bigs in transition.

[Pillendreher]

Per 36 minutes Shroder's assist numbers are nearly two less than last year. His problem isn't so much that he doesn't look to pass, it's that whenever he does the bench bricks it.

I can't even remeber the last time Schröder set somebody up for a good jumpshot. For crying out loud, Patterson has started posting up as a way to get the ball with Schröder on the floor.

Schröder needs to stop the ballhoggery. He's not nearly good enough for it.

You must not be watching that closely... Patterson just had a game where he hit 2 3s off of a Schroder set up. This was in part because of a different action we started running to get Patterson some space in transition.

EDIT: It was the Dallas game. We were probably out running their bigs in transition.

I was probably too busy dancing after Patterson, the love of my life, made a shot.

Speaking of Schröder assisting Patterson: Just 14 assists for that pairing 12 weeks or so into the season does not seem enough, does it?

[Mattv]

When I say "true" point-guard, what I mean is methodical point guards... these are your Chris Pauls, Rajon Rondos, Ricky Rubios...

Westbrook is not that. Westbrook is an albatross point-guard who isn't going to kill you methodically; he's going to kill you with athleticism...

How you are getting your assists doesn't matter so long as you are impacting the game and creating buckets for yourself or others. This is something that Westbrook has a hard time balancing. Even if he isn't shooting well, he's going to keep shooting instead of taking the more methodical approach of feeding his teammates and see who can catch fire... and well, that's the difference between a "true point" and an athletic 2-guard playing point.

EDIT: Here's a nice little post that might help explain what I mean (this is from over a year ago).

We will have to disagree I guess. Dont get me wrong Westbrook has to play better. Everthing in this post could also be said about Schroder but except is isnt as athletic as Westbrook even with Westbrooks decline and doesnt even look to pass but time and time again to over look it and take up for him.Why?

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The reason I take up for Schroder is because people do not understand the extent of how much his current circumstances and his past circumstances have affected his numbers. People often look at how a player is playing now and if he isn't being a major outlier in 1 or 2 statistical categories, he's labeled as bad. Sometimes it is all about context.

Oladipo could never be the player he is today if he continued playing Westbrook... I'm not saying Schroder is on Oladipo's level but circumstances are similar. Schroder is a lot better than most people think and this where I and others disagree. A lot of other people trust numbers and analytics and that is all good and well but it doesn't tell the whole story. Context does. You have to understand the past to understand the present and the future.

I trust my own two eyeballs and my own understanding of the game of basketball. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right and that's just how things go sometimes. You win some, you lose some. But from everything I've seen from Schroder, I can tell you that Schroder is unequivocally way better than people think he is. He just hasn't found a "home" so to speak...

So your saying that everbody is doing to Schroder what you are to Westbrook?
I also like Schroder and believe he can be a great player but he's playing way to much iso ball right now instead of make the easy pass.I also do the eyeball test more than I look at stats.

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[getrichordie]

I can't even remeber the last time Schröder set somebody up for a good jumpshot. For crying out loud, Patterson has started posting up as a way to get the ball with Schröder on the floor.

Schröder needs to stop the ballhoggery. He's not nearly good enough for it.

You must not be watching that closely... Patterson just had a game where he hit 2 3s off of a Schroder set up. This was in part because of a different action we started running to get Patterson some space in transition.

EDIT: It was the Dallas game. We were probably out running their bigs in transition.

I was probably too busy dancing after Patterson, the love of my life, made a shot.

Speaking of Schröder assisting Patterson: Just 14 assists for that pairing 12 weeks or so into the season does not seem enough, does it?

It doesn’t seem nearly enough and I think it speaks to Patterson’s struggles and Schroder’s struggle to create looks versus a defense that is packing the paint. Schroder loves to drive left and Patterson loves the right corner and that’s a hard pass to make for a 6’1 Schroder being double-teamed. There are only a handful of players in the league that could routinely make that pass... this is what makes Rondo a frickin’ magician. He’s 6’1 and has arms that can wrap around bodies and put spin on a pass. His vision is insane.


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[SecondTake]

I can't even remeber the last time Schröder set somebody up for a good jumpshot. For crying out loud, Patterson has started posting up as a way to get the ball with Schröder on the floor.

Schröder needs to stop the ballhoggery. He's not nearly good enough for it.

You must not be watching that closely... Patterson just had a game where he hit 2 3s off of a Schroder set up. This was in part because of a different action we started running to get Patterson some space in transition.

EDIT: It was the Dallas game. We were probably out running their bigs in transition.

I was probably too busy dancing after Patterson, the love of my life, made a shot.

Speaking of Schröder assisting Patterson: Just 14 assists for that pairing 12 weeks or so into the season does not seem enough, does it?

You don't get an assist for bricks. Also Patterson looks scared to shoot even when he does have it. He knows its not going in and whenever it does he gives you hat look that says he's surprised it did. He seems to have a mental block at this point.

[Kizz Fastfists]

That's the Billion dollar question.1 thing that I have noticed is it doesnt look like Russ is jumping as high on his jump shot and he always has had a flat shot.

That is because his knees are shot. He's not getting as high consistently on dunks, either. His lateral quickness is still mostly there, but his elevation dropped enough enough to see it last year. This year it has just become painfully obvious to everyone. When I start to notice his lateral quickness go it's going to be a bad day. His straight line speed is still mostly there and that is why everyone is backing off. His shot can't drop unless he completely relearns his hand motions to compensate for the lack of leg lift and torque. I don't believe Russ will do it. I think he will continue to have great nights where his body is feeling good, but those will become fewer and fewer over the next few years. We'll see more nights like last night. His averages, shooting wise, will continue to drop.

Russ is never going to pass up those dare you to shoot looks. He is not wired like that and that attitude/ego isn't going to change. That is what made him the player he was. I really didn't expect him to drop off this hard this year. I thought this was going to be the discussion next year as we were going to get one last great season from him. Instead we are getting a good, by his standard, season. Good isn't going to be enough to get this team out of the first round and it might not get them in the playoffs.

[Pillendreher]

You don't get an assist for bricks.

Where are all these potential assists you're talking about comig from when almost every 2nd possession ends in Schröder's hands? Or are you trying to make my point for me that Schröder has the ball in his hands all the time and that the other half of the possessions is goig to teammates who brick the shots?

[SecondTake]

That's the Billion dollar question.1 thing that I have noticed is it doesnt look like Russ is jumping as high on his jump shot and he always has had a flat shot.

That is because his knees are shot. He's not getting as high consistently on dunks, either. His lateral quickness is still mostly there, but his elevation dropped enough enough to see it last year. This year it has just become painfully obvious to everyone. When I start to notice his lateral quickness go it's going to be a bad day. His straight line speed is still mostly there and that is why everyone is backing off. His shot can't drop unless he completely relearns his hand motions to compensate for the lack of leg lift and torque. I don't believe Russ will do it. I think he will continue to have great nights where his body is feeling good, but those will become fewer and fewer over the next few years. We'll see more nights like last night. His averages, shooting wise, will continue to drop.

Russ is never going to pass up those dare you to shoot looks. He is not wired like that and that attitude/ego isn't going to change. That is what made him the player he was. I really didn't expect him to drop off this hard this year. I thought this was going to be the discussion next year as we were going to get one last great season from him. Instead we are getting a good, by his standard, season. Good isn't going to be enough to get this team out of the first round and it might not get them in the playoffs.

His scoring will go down. However his defense is leagues better than it has been in many seasons, and it's helping make up for much (not all) of his offensive struggles. His decision making has improved and obviously has room to improve further, which I think it will given his growth this year. So although his scoring will probably level out around 18-20 over the next 2-3 seasons I think his effectiveness can remain relatively similar due to much better defense and decision making. His defense is extremely good and all the numbers bare that out. That could not be said in the past on a consistent basis.

[SecondTake]

You don't get an assist for bricks.

Where are all these potential assists you're talking about comig from when almost every 2nd possession ends in Schröder's hands? Or are you trying to make my point for me that Schröder has the ball in his hands all the time and that the other half of the possessions is goig to teammates who brick the shots?

Whose hands do you want the ball in? Patterson and Abrines? Yeah Shroder has the ball in his hands all the time, because it's better than giving it to guys that can't handle the ball without turning it over or bricking shots. You WANT the ball in Shroders hands - the problem is that whenever it leaves his hands his teammates brick shots, so his best bet is putting up a floater.

[Kizz Fastfists]

His scoring will go down. However his defense is leagues better than it has been in many seasons, and it's helping make up for much (not all) of his offensive struggles. His decision making has improved and obviously has room to improve further, which I think it will given his growth this year. So although his scoring will probably level out around 18-20 over the next 2-3 seasons I think his effectiveness can remain relatively similar due to much better defense and decision making. His defense is extremely good and all the numbers bare that out. That could not be said in the past on a consistent basis.

He needs to become more of a 15pt, 15 ast, 8-10 reb guy to remain effective. A lot less shots, especially jumpers, and more of a focus on the drive and kick aspect of his game. I'm not saying he can't still be a very good player, but he's no longer a superstar. He's no longer the guy that could carry the post-kd season team to the playoffs. PG is clearly the best player on the team now and before long we'll have to consider if Adams isn't the 2nd best player.

I don't believe Russ can/will change enough. It is nice to see him refocused on defense. He was drafted for his defense and athleticism. He was DPOY in college. I just don't think he can accept that he shouldn't be taking 18+ shots a night. The other problem is that there aren't a lot of options on the roster to take the shots that Russ has been taking and be as efficient. The lack of shooting on the roster AND the decline of Russ is going to make things ugly fast if Presti can't find some shooters. Abrines has to come back as the 38% 3pt shooter he has shown he is. Ferguson needs to continue shooting 37% from 3 like he did in December on an increased volume, 2 a game isn't enough. Jerami Grant's run appears to be over as he is shooting 29% from 3 over the last 12 games.

This team looks on paper like it was built with the unrealistic expectation that Russ had 2-3 more years before he dropped off. That was a massive failure by Presti as there was very little chance Russ didn't start to drop off enough this year that everyone would see it. Although, I didn't expect him to drop off this much until next year.

[Kizz Fastfists]

Whose hands do you want the ball in? Patterson and Abrines? Yeah Shroder has the ball in his hands all the time, because it's better than giving it to guys that can't handle the ball without turning it over or bricking shots. You WANT the ball in Shroders hands - the problem is that whenever it leaves his hands his teammates brick shots, so his best bet is putting up a floater.

You want Schroder CREATING with the ball in his hands. You do not want Schroder shooting. Shroder has a 41% FG% and 32% 3pt%. Abrines may only be shooing 32% from 3, but he has established himself as a much better shooting who is just going through a slump. Ferguson is a better shooter than Schroder. Get the ball to Noel inside. I'd rather Patterson take the shot because I expect him to end up closer to his career numbers from 3. I'd rather Nader take the shot than Schroder. If my options are Diallo, Felton or Schroder on a jumper then I'll settle for Schroder.

[getrichordie]

His scoring will go down. However his defense is leagues better than it has been in many seasons, and it's helping make up for much (not all) of his offensive struggles. His decision making has improved and obviously has room to improve further, which I think it will given his growth this year. So although his scoring will probably level out around 18-20 over the next 2-3 seasons I think his effectiveness can remain relatively similar due to much better defense and decision making. His defense is extremely good and all the numbers bare that out. That could not be said in the past on a consistent basis.

He needs to become more of a 15pt, 15 ast, 8-10 reb guy to remain effective. A lot less shots, especially jumpers, and more of a focus on the drive and kick aspect of his game. I'm not saying he can't still be a very good player, but he's no longer a superstar. He's no longer the guy that could carry the post-kd season team to the playoffs. PG is clearly the best player on the team now and before long we'll have to consider if Adams isn't the 2nd best player.

I don't believe Russ can/will change enough. It is nice to see him refocused on defense. He was drafted for his defense and athleticism. He was DPOY in college. I just don't think he can accept that he shouldn't be taking 18+ shots a night. The other problem is that there aren't a lot of options on the roster to take the shots that Russ has been taking and be as efficient. The lack of shooting on the roster AND the decline of Russ is going to make things ugly fast if Presti can't find some shooters. Abrines has to come back as the 38% 3pt shooter he has shown he is. Ferguson needs to continue shooting 37% from 3 like he did in December on an increased volume, 2 a game isn't enough. Jerami Grant's run appears to be over as he is shooting 29% from 3 over the last 12 games.

This team looks on paper like it was built with the unrealistic expectation that Russ had 2-3 more years before he dropped off. That was a massive failure by Presti as there was very little chance Russ didn't start to drop off enough this year that everyone would see it. Although, I didn't expect him to drop off this much until next year.

I agree with just about everything you have said. Russ could be averaging 15 ASTs a night and we would be better off for it. Grant’s shooting #s are down because the defense is sagging so hard on Westbrook, they would rather guard Grant closer than they would Westbrook which speaks to Westbrook’s struggles. In order for this team to reach it’s peak, Westbrook MUST learn to take less shots and be more selective with his shots but I’m not sure he has the patience to play this way. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

This is the main reason why I think Presti is feeling a lot of pressure to make a significant trade at the deadline. We need to put another star in between Russ and George that Russ respects. I think if Presti can do that, Westbrook would actually be more committed to changing.

I think the whole roster is in question right now, though. I wouldn’t be surprised if we traded Grant at this point. I feel extremely confident that Adams is getting traded soon. At the very least, this offseason. We need to put a 2-guard between Russ and George that can take away a chunk of Russ’ shooting. This 2-guard also needs to be able to run the second unit. I think we are going to see a very different Thunder team next season. Presti is going to put more emphasis on offense than ever before, in my opinion.

I find it strange that Russ and George both followed Beal. It makes you think...

I like to think Presti sits down with Russ and George and shows them a list of practical trade targets and they collaboratively decide who they would be most interested in.


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[getrichordie]

Whose hands do you want the ball in? Patterson and Abrines? Yeah Shroder has the ball in his hands all the time, because it's better than giving it to guys that can't handle the ball without turning it over or bricking shots. You WANT the ball in Shroders hands - the problem is that whenever it leaves his hands his teammates brick shots, so his best bet is putting up a floater.

You want Schroder CREATING with the ball in his hands. You do not want Schroder shooting. Shroder has a 41% FG% and 32% 3pt%. Abrines may only be shooing 32% from 3, but he has established himself as a much better shooting who is just going through a slump. Ferguson is a better shooter than Schroder. Get the ball to Noel inside. I'd rather Patterson take the shot because I expect him to end up closer to his career numbers from 3. I'd rather Nader take the shot than Schroder. If my options are Diallo, Felton or Schroder on a jumper then I'll settle for Schroder.

Let’s assume that Schroder is not a ball hog and the people saying this are wrong. What could the other reasons be for Schroder taking these shots? Most wouldn’t be able to come up with one but there are definitely reasons why Schroder’s USG% is so high.

Watch some Schroder highlights at the beginning of the season and watch him survey the floor. He surveys the floor incredibly well. He has really good vision despite his height-based limitations.

Now, go watch Schroder highlights from the beginning of December. He’s now attacking down hill because defenses are keying in and exhausting his options and I would challenge you to come up with a counter to defenses taking away the Abrines shot, the Patterson shot, and the Schroder/Noel P&R. What are you left with? Diallo in the corner... So in a sense, when our second unit is facing a set defense, it pretty much comes down to a Diallo corner 3/Diallo trying to finish over 3 guys or a Schroder contested floater.. that’s how easy it is to defend our second unit...


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[Kizz Fastfists]

Let’s assume that Schroder is not a ball hog and the people saying this are wrong. What could the other reasons be for Schroder taking these shots? Most wouldn’t be able to come up with one but there are definitely reasons why Schroder’s USG% is so high.

Schroder is who he is. He's always been a high usage shoot first PG. He's the PG version of Melo. He's an inefficient shoot first volume scorer. His usage is down this year and is the lowest it has been since his rookie season. His assist percentage is also the lowest it has been since his rookie year. If you are going to argue that his assists are down because OKC is inferior to Atlanta in terms of scheme and shooting go for it as you can probably win that argument. If you are going to argue that Schroder is playing in way that was unexpected you aren't going to win that argument.

I don't expect Schroder to change just like I don't expect Russ to change. Schroder and Russ are very similar to being the same offensive player at this point. Both see the floor, both get to the rim, both can pass and both look for their own shot first. Russ has dropped off enough that he is as good/bad as Schroder on the offensive end.

[Pillendreher]

You don't get an assist for bricks.

Where are all these potential assists you're talking about comig from when almost every 2nd possession ends in Schröder's hands? Or are you trying to make my point for me that Schröder has the ball in his hands all the time and that the other half of the possessions is goig to teammates who brick the shots?

Whose hands do you want the ball in? Patterson and Abrines? Yeah Shroder has the ball in his hands all the time, because it's better than giving it to guys that can't handle the ball without turning it over or bricking shots. You WANT the ball in Shroders hands - the problem is that whenever it leaves his hands his teammates brick shots, so his best bet is putting up a floater.

I most certainly do not want the ball in Schröder's hands like this. Nobody should. I has produced nothing but horrible results.

[Mattv]

You don't get an assist for bricks.

Where are all these potential assists you're talking about comig from when almost every 2nd possession ends in Schröder's hands? Or are you trying to make my point for me that Schröder has the ball in his hands all the time and that the other half of the possessions is goig to teammates who brick the shots?

Whose hands do you want the ball in? Patterson and Abrines? Yeah Shroder has the ball in his hands all the time, because it's better than giving it to guys that can't handle the ball without turning it over or bricking shots. You WANT the ball in Shroders hands - the problem is that whenever it leaves his hands his teammates brick shots, so his best bet is putting up a floater.

Geting shot blocked at the rim or turning the ball over isn't better than getting even our worse shooter a shot. I do see where you are coming from but it's Schroders job to run the 2nd unit It's Donovan's job to put who he wants on the floor with him to make the shots.

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[spearsy23]

At this point does anyone actually expect things to change? We're almost half way through the season and it's not like there's an upward trend.