Trae Young

[nybluemeadow]

Half way through the season now, Trae looks ok, he is putting up similar number that Chris Paul put up in his rookie season. Although Trae is averaging more turn overs than CP3, but i'll give that a pass since Trae is a rookie and Paul had better teammates when he as a rookie in New Orleans.

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

[The-Power]

Half way through the season now, Trae looks ok, he is putting up similar number that Chris Paul put up in his rookie season. Although Trae is averaging more turn overs than CP3, but i'll give that a pass since Trae is a rookie and Paul had better teammates when he as a rookie in New Orleans.

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

As I said, just don't go there. Curry and especially Paul were clearly better than Trae during their Rookie years. Curry's efficiency is just so much better than Trae's and that was in an environment in which league average efficiency was clearly worse. And while he was certainly below average defensively, he's still been clearly better than Trae and was generally better playing in system not revolving around him (although Trae has made some strides in this regard recently). Paul was just on another level. Better scorer, better playmaker, better defender. The numbers are a testament to that.

You should look beyond the mere volume numbers if you believe they have been comparable thus far. Young's USG% has been that of an All-Star. Yes, he'll accumulate numbers but he's done so extremely inefficiently thus far (terrible scoring efficiency and lots of turnovers) and completely neglected playing defense for the most part. Make no mistake: Young has been one of the worst players in the league this year in terms of impact. He has shown enough flashes and some recent improvement to still be an intriguing prospect who could become a really good player. But objectively speaking he's been terrible up to this point and only has this kind of usage and plays that many minutes because the Hawks are tanking and hope he can be a core piece of the future, and not because he's actually deserving all of that. This is something to always keep in mind when comparing players.

[King Ken]

Posted this before last night's game so the data might be a tad off.

I made this post in The General Board: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=71460770#p71460770

Trae has been playing extremely well on both ends in the last 8 games. I am perfectly fine with him. Since Huerter been inserted into the starting lineup, Trae has been much much better. Especially on defense.

16/3.5/8.3/1.3 on a 47/50/77.8 split

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

per36 his numbers are 19.7/4.3/10.1/1.5 with a 5.3 TOV rate in the last 8 games.

https://stats.nba.com/player/1629027/traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&LastNGames=8

Compare this to other ATG PG's their rookie year:

per36 is elite for a rookie true PG at 19.2/9.1/3.5/1 on a 39.6/27.5/78.2 split

CP3 - 16/8/5
Stockton - 11/10/2.5
Kidd - 12.5/8.4/5.8
Payton - 9.4/8.5/4
Curry- 17.4/6/4.4
Nash- 11.2/7.3/3
Zeke- 18.1/8.4/3.1

Trae is right on track.

Trae is having a TREMENDOUS rookie season for a true PG and one of his prototype. Is it perfect? No but it is much better than people are making it seem. Being a prized rookie PG is extremely hard. Ask DeAaron Fox. He has tremendously improved of late, especially on defense.

Trae's most amazing skill is his passing but his most underrated outside of his really good lateral quickness that no one talks about is his quickness and acceleration that is making him one of the most dangerous slashers in the NBA which is really how his playmaking is elite even if his passing still needs some work accuracy wise.

In the last 8 games, Trae is 3rd in the NBA with drives 19.3 with a higher FG% than James Harden at 43.6%. 20% of his drives lead to an assist and his assist rate is 3.9 which tops all players and his turnover rate is a lowly .9. which is pretty good. Trae is a monster. People love comparing him to Nash. He really is the next Isiah "Zeke" Thomas with insane court vision and range like Steph Curry. He is his own man.

His defense has been improving like cats and dogs. I think changing the personnel and him really focusing on assignments has turned him from a defensive superscrub into someone with potential. This was a man who literally didn't want to get in defensive stance at times and would just like players score so he can go back on offense. The biggest change I've seen from Trae is a mental one. He adjusted mentally. I really think this Doncic thing is getting to Ayton and Trae. I have never seen two players improve so much in a short span. Think about this, this is something John Wall still hasn't done yet. I can't recall the last time I've seen this. This quickly I mean. Maybe rookie Wade in the 2nd half?

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=8

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[King Ken]

Half way through the season now, Trae looks ok, he is putting up similar number that Chris Paul put up in his rookie season. Although Trae is averaging more turn overs than CP3, but i'll give that a pass since Trae is a rookie and Paul had better teammates when he as a rookie in New Orleans.

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

I think it's fair to say Trae outside of last night game, has performed well on defense in the last 8 games. Trae is playing exceptionally well for a true PG prospect. I think the biggest mistake is comparing him to a stud in Doncic.

Ayton, JJJ, Bagley, Trae are putting up top tier numbers compared to legend rookies in their position. It's fair to say, everyone is happy with them.

Luka is obviously the game breaker. His impact is a top 50 player and no rookie really can produce at that level as a rookie. The gap between the NCAA and NBA is just too massive for a 0-1 of college rookie.

That said, these guys are all tremendously productive for their position.

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[Duke4life831]

Half way through the season now, Trae looks ok, he is putting up similar number that Chris Paul put up in his rookie season. Although Trae is averaging more turn overs than CP3, but i'll give that a pass since Trae is a rookie and Paul had better teammates when he as a rookie in New Orleans.

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

What? Both CP3 and Curry scored more, rebounded more, got more steals, and shot better and overall efficiency is night and day. The only reason Young is comparable when it comes to raw pts/assists is because of his massive USG% compared to the other 2. Those guys statistics blow Young's stats out of the water. There are a lot more numbers than just raw pts and assists.

When you start looking at shooting %s, TS%, WS, BPM, RPM, On/Off and others you see a gigantic gap between those guys and Young. Comparing Trae Young's season so far to CP3's and Curry's rookie seasons is not going to go well. All advanced metrics basically have Young as one of, if not the worst player getting major minutes and one of if not the worst defender in the league. I dont see too much changing defensively for Young.

[King Ken]

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

What? Both CP3 and Curry scored more, rebounded more, got more steals, and shot better and overall efficiency is night and day. The only reason Young is comparable when it comes to raw pts/assists is because of his massive USG% compared to the other 2. Those guys statistics blow Young's stats out of the water. There are a lot more numbers than just raw pts and assists.

When you start looking at shooting %s, TS%, WS, BPM, RPM, On/Off and others you see a gigantic gap between those guys and Young. Comparing Trae Young's season so far to CP3's and Curry's rookie seasons is not going to go well. All advanced metrics basically have Young as one of, if not the worst player getting major minutes and one of if not the worst defender in the league. I dont see too much changing defensively for Young.

None of those guys were in the same situation for starters nor is Steph a comparable situation. He had 3 years of college experience. Even two years is critical but 0-1 years is not the same.

CP3 was the only player under the age of 25 to get 20MPG or more as a rookie on the Hornets that season. He came into a much better situation than Young in a much weaker era in terms of competition for PGs.

We need to use common sense when we talk about these players.

We also need to watch the damn games. Too many posters adding two cents when their opinion is not worth it for this particular case study.

Trae has been doing a tremendous job for a rookie PG. I've watched every game. I know his strengths and weaknesses. I've been on record numerous times.

Saying look at WS, RPM, etc is dismissive, foolish and does not tell the story. He is clearly a WIP and has a lot of work to do but this talent is clear as day and his potential is sky high. His fit for Atlanta is excellent and the personnel we currently have fits him well. He is going to take time. But let's not write him off.

The raw numbers are a good sign. It's not just someone has to score, he is actually doing this v. Great defensive game plans setup to slow him down. This isn't Dennis Schroeder or Jeff Teague. Teams gameplan to stop Trae or slow him down. He has a lot of work to do. He is still raw in many areas but he does not have as many flaws as you may think looking at the advanced statistics.

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[Duke4life831]

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

What? Both CP3 and Curry scored more, rebounded more, got more steals, and shot better and overall efficiency is night and day. The only reason Young is comparable when it comes to raw pts/assists is because of his massive USG% compared to the other 2. Those guys statistics blow Young's stats out of the water. There are a lot more numbers than just raw pts and assists.

When you start looking at shooting %s, TS%, WS, BPM, RPM, On/Off and others you see a gigantic gap between those guys and Young. Comparing Trae Young's season so far to CP3's and Curry's rookie seasons is not going to go well. All advanced metrics basically have Young as one of, if not the worst player getting major minutes and one of if not the worst defender in the league. I dont see too much changing defensively for Young.

None of those guys were in the same situation for starters nor is Steph a comparable situation. He had 3 years of college experience. Even two years is critical but 0-1 years is not the same.

CP3 was the only player under the age of 25 to get 20MPG or more as a rookie on the Hornets that season. He came into a much better situation than Young in a much weaker era in terms of competition for PGs.

We need to use common sense when we talk about these players.

We also need to watch the damn games. Too many posters adding two cents when their opinion is not worth it for this particular case study.

Trae has been doing a tremendous job for a rookie PG. I've watched every game. I know his strengths and weaknesses. I've been on record numerous times.

Saying look at WS, RPM, etc is dismissive, foolish and does not tell the story. He is clearly a WIP and has a lot of work to do but this talent is clear as day and his potential is sky high. His fit for Atlanta is excellent and the personnel we currently have fits him well. He is going to take time. But let's not write him off.

The raw numbers are a good sign. It's not just someone has to score, he is actually doing this v. Great defensive game plans setup to slow him down. This isn't Dennis Schroeder or Jeff Teague. Teams gameplan to stop Trae or slow him down. He has a lot of work to do. He is still raw in many areas but he does not have as many flaws as you may think looking at the advanced statistics.

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I wasnt the one that brought up those 2 guys. I was quoting a post that said Young's rookie numbers are comparable to those 2 as rookies.

Also dont you see how youre kind of picking and choosing stats. Youre saying looking at advanced numbers is being dismissive and foolish. But then the very next paragraph you say look at the raw numbers, those are a good sign. That kind of seems like youre saying we should only look at the stats that look at him in a favorable light.

Ive watched Atlanta games as well, he hasnt been good. Now yes I havent watched as many as you have, but I dont think we should just completely throw away all stats that dont look at him in a favorable light.

And Im sorry but I dont buy the whole his numbers look worse because teams gameplan against him thing. All season long when Young was in Big 12 play and game after game I was pointing out how bad he looked and his numbers looked. The response I got was, teams are just game planning against him, you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Trae isnt on a 1 man team. John Collins is the better player, Prince is a legit player. Trae's numbers since Collins has returned are almost identical to his season numbers

with Collins:
14/2/7 on 38/29/76 shooting (4 turnovers)

total season:
15/2/7 on 39/27/78 shooting (4 turnovers)

You also say youved watched him, you know his strengths and weaknesses. How do you know the people that arent high on him also havent watched him and know his strengths and weaknesses. I caught plenty of high school games, his FIBA games, every single college game, every SL game and about 15 of his regular season games. I think I have a pretty good view on his strengths and weaknesses.

I went back and forth with many posters in this very thread all throughout last year. I think they had their own opinion on his weaknesses and strengths. We just disagreed on them is all. Doesnt mean they are talking out of their ass and not using common sense.

[King Ken]

What? Both CP3 and Curry scored more, rebounded more, got more steals, and shot better and overall efficiency is night and day. The only reason Young is comparable when it comes to raw pts/assists is because of his massive USG% compared to the other 2. Those guys statistics blow Young's stats out of the water. There are a lot more numbers than just raw pts and assists.

When you start looking at shooting %s, TS%, WS, BPM, RPM, On/Off and others you see a gigantic gap between those guys and Young. Comparing Trae Young's season so far to CP3's and Curry's rookie seasons is not going to go well. All advanced metrics basically have Young as one of, if not the worst player getting major minutes and one of if not the worst defender in the league. I dont see too much changing defensively for Young.

None of those guys were in the same situation for starters nor is Steph a comparable situation. He had 3 years of college experience. Even two years is critical but 0-1 years is not the same.

CP3 was the only player under the age of 25 to get 20MPG or more as a rookie on the Hornets that season. He came into a much better situation than Young in a much weaker era in terms of competition for PGs.

We need to use common sense when we talk about these players.

We also need to watch the damn games. Too many posters adding two cents when their opinion is not worth it for this particular case study.

Trae has been doing a tremendous job for a rookie PG. I've watched every game. I know his strengths and weaknesses. I've been on record numerous times.

Saying look at WS, RPM, etc is dismissive, foolish and does not tell the story. He is clearly a WIP and has a lot of work to do but this talent is clear as day and his potential is sky high. His fit for Atlanta is excellent and the personnel we currently have fits him well. He is going to take time. But let's not write him off.

The raw numbers are a good sign. It's not just someone has to score, he is actually doing this v. Great defensive game plans setup to slow him down. This isn't Dennis Schroeder or Jeff Teague. Teams gameplan to stop Trae or slow him down. He has a lot of work to do. He is still raw in many areas but he does not have as many flaws as you may think looking at the advanced statistics.

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I wasnt the one that brought up those 2 guys. I was quoting a post that said Young's rookie numbers are comparable to those 2 as rookies.

Also dont you see how youre kind of picking and choosing stats. Youre saying looking at advanced numbers is being dismissive and foolish. But then the very next paragraph you say look at the raw numbers, those are a good sign. That kind of seems like youre saying we should only look at the stats that look at him in a favorable light.

Ive watched Atlanta games as well, he hasnt been good. Now yes I havent watched as many as you have, but I dont think we should just completely throw away all stats that dont look at him in a favorable light.

And Im sorry but I dont buy the whole his numbers look worse because teams gameplan against him thing. All season long when Young was in Big 12 play and game after game I was pointing out how bad he looked and his numbers looked. The response I got was, teams are just game planning against him, you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Trae isnt on a 1 man team. John Collins is the better player, Prince is a legit player. Trae's numbers since Collins has returned are almost identical to his season numbers

with Collins:
14/2/7 on 38/29/76 shooting (4 turnovers)

total season:
15/2/7 on 39/27/78 shooting (4 turnovers)

You also say youved watched him, you know his strengths and weaknesses. How do you know the people that arent high on him also havent watched him and know his strengths and weaknesses. I caught plenty of high school games, his FIBA games, every single college game, every SL game and about 15 of his regular season games. I think I have a pretty good view on his strengths and weaknesses.

I went back and forth with many posters in this very thread all throughout last year. I think they had their own opinion on his weaknesses and strengths. We just disagreed on them is all. Doesnt mean they are talking out of their ass and not using common sense.

You are right, you never made the comparison, another poster did. That's not on you.

No, I am not saying its wrong to say it, I am saying its foolish to dismiss him due to those advanced stats. That's where I disagreed.

We shouldn't dismiss any data. We both know that. But we shouldn't dismiss players either without proper context. We both know that as well. We both know that we at Duke asked a lot more out of Tyus Young than we did out of Trevon Duval. If there is similar data, we cannot take it in the same context. That matters.

I can't speak to him at OU. I didn't watch him too much and when I did, I saw the talent and I saw the flaws. I wasn't sold on him. I had him as a boom or bust which for the most part, he is. That said, even I underestimated his physical abilities to a degree. Especially his lateral quickness and first step due to not being impressed with his open court speed.

Teams are game planning v. Him. You know I watch as much NBA ball as anyone. He gets the treatment. The treatment that stars get from defenses. He is not treated like Fox, Westbrook, Curry or Rose as rookies. He gets the current Kemba and Lillard treatment and those are NBA stars and vets. They aren't rookies. He gets the respect of coaches and teams around the NBA. His usage is high due to us having him as our only creator in the starting five. He creates a lot of open shots and creative chances that can hockey assists.

Prince is struggling with the tempo change. Collins has been playing with the addition of Trae. Trae has been much better with the addition of John. Those two work well together as I mentioned in the quoted post. That last game screws up Traes numbers. He been much better with John than without him. This is why you got to watch the games. Keeps you from saying things that just don't make sense in terms of effectiveness. Also, turnovers are a tough one. Because for the most part, Trae TOs are things like players dropping the ball, things that just get better with players being more used to playing with that type of passer.

I can't speak to what you know or don't know but I know you dismissed him trying to use advanced statistics. I know that's some BS as well. That I know. That is where this went from your personal opinion to hating mode. You mentioned you aren't a fan of Trae, that's fine but when people become haters, I start looking at you funny style.

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[Patsfan1081]

Comparing him to CP3, Curry, or even Payton is a bit ridiculous. Young is talented but you can't just compare raw stats and forget everything else. Young has a negative win share! He's by far the worst defender on that list, and his scoring numbers kind of go out the window when you're not efficient and have a bad ts%. His passing is prob the only attribute you could make comparisons on. I've watched plenty of him too, especially in school. Vs Boston he was a -68 in two games and couldn't stay on the floor because of his defense. On the year Atlanta has a -10 rating when he's on the floor.

[Duke4life831]

None of those guys were in the same situation for starters nor is Steph a comparable situation. He had 3 years of college experience. Even two years is critical but 0-1 years is not the same.

CP3 was the only player under the age of 25 to get 20MPG or more as a rookie on the Hornets that season. He came into a much better situation than Young in a much weaker era in terms of competition for PGs.

We need to use common sense when we talk about these players.

We also need to watch the damn games. Too many posters adding two cents when their opinion is not worth it for this particular case study.

Trae has been doing a tremendous job for a rookie PG. I've watched every game. I know his strengths and weaknesses. I've been on record numerous times.

Saying look at WS, RPM, etc is dismissive, foolish and does not tell the story. He is clearly a WIP and has a lot of work to do but this talent is clear as day and his potential is sky high. His fit for Atlanta is excellent and the personnel we currently have fits him well. He is going to take time. But let's not write him off.

The raw numbers are a good sign. It's not just someone has to score, he is actually doing this v. Great defensive game plans setup to slow him down. This isn't Dennis Schroeder or Jeff Teague. Teams gameplan to stop Trae or slow him down. He has a lot of work to do. He is still raw in many areas but he does not have as many flaws as you may think looking at the advanced statistics.

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I wasnt the one that brought up those 2 guys. I was quoting a post that said Young's rookie numbers are comparable to those 2 as rookies.

Also dont you see how youre kind of picking and choosing stats. Youre saying looking at advanced numbers is being dismissive and foolish. But then the very next paragraph you say look at the raw numbers, those are a good sign. That kind of seems like youre saying we should only look at the stats that look at him in a favorable light.

Ive watched Atlanta games as well, he hasnt been good. Now yes I havent watched as many as you have, but I dont think we should just completely throw away all stats that dont look at him in a favorable light.

And Im sorry but I dont buy the whole his numbers look worse because teams gameplan against him thing. All season long when Young was in Big 12 play and game after game I was pointing out how bad he looked and his numbers looked. The response I got was, teams are just game planning against him, you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Trae isnt on a 1 man team. John Collins is the better player, Prince is a legit player. Trae's numbers since Collins has returned are almost identical to his season numbers

with Collins:
14/2/7 on 38/29/76 shooting (4 turnovers)

total season:
15/2/7 on 39/27/78 shooting (4 turnovers)

You also say youved watched him, you know his strengths and weaknesses. How do you know the people that arent high on him also havent watched him and know his strengths and weaknesses. I caught plenty of high school games, his FIBA games, every single college game, every SL game and about 15 of his regular season games. I think I have a pretty good view on his strengths and weaknesses.

I went back and forth with many posters in this very thread all throughout last year. I think they had their own opinion on his weaknesses and strengths. We just disagreed on them is all. Doesnt mean they are talking out of their ass and not using common sense.

You are right, you never made the comparison, another poster did. That's not on you.

No, I am not saying its wrong to say it, I am saying its foolish to dismiss him due to those advanced stats. That's where I disagreed.

We shouldn't dismiss any data. We both know that. But we shouldn't dismiss players either without proper context. We both know that as well. We both know that we at Duke asked a lot more out of Tyus Young than we did out of Trevon Duval. If there is similar data, we cannot take it in the same context. That matters.

I can't speak to him at OU. I didn't watch him too much and when I did, I saw the talent and I saw the flaws. I wasn't sold on him. I had him as a boom or bust which for the most part, he is. That said, even I underestimated his physical abilities to a degree. Especially his lateral quickness and first step due to not being impressed with his open court speed.

Teams are game planning v. Him. You know I watch as much NBA ball as anyone. He gets the treatment. The treatment that stars get from defenses. He is not treated like Fox, Westbrook, Curry or Rose as rookies. He gets the current Kemba and Lillard treatment and those are NBA stars and vets. They aren't rookies. He gets the respect of coaches and teams around the NBA. His usage is high due to us having him as our only creator in the starting five. He creates a lot of open shots and creative chances that can hockey assists.

Prince is struggling with the tempo change. Collins has been playing with the addition of Trae. Trae has been much better with the addition of John. Those two work well together as I mentioned in the quoted post. That last game screws up Traes numbers. He been much better with John than without him. This is why you got to watch the games. Keeps you from saying things that just don't make sense in terms of effectiveness. Also, turnovers are a tough one. Because for the most part, Trae TOs are things like players dropping the ball, things that just get better with players being more used to playing with that type of passer.

I can't speak to what you know or don't know but I know you dismissed him trying to use advanced statistics. I know that's some BS as well. That I know. That is where this went from your personal opinion to hating mode. You mentioned you aren't a fan of Trae, that's fine but when people become haters, I start looking at you funny style.

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A few things. First his play with and without Collins. Even if we dont include last nights game

With Collins:
15/2/7 on 39/29/76 shooting with 4 turnovers

without Collins:
16/3/8 on 40/25/80 shooting with 4 turnovers

Again that is not including last nights game. Those numbers are very similar to one an another.

Second. Im not dismissing him based solely off of advanced stats. I am using advanced stats to backup my argument for his level of play, which I have seen. Again Ive seen a ton of Young before the NBA, saw him all SL, and about 15 games so far this year. Basically every time Ive watched him, I pretty much came away with the same thought I have had with him going back 2 years or so. Really bad defender, and while shows flashes as a shooter and scorer, he just ends up being a very high usage guard that has horrible shot selection which leads to horrible efficiency. I still see those same things with Young when I watch him in the NBA. So that is what I have seen, I then referenced the advanced stats because those stats paint a similar picture and backs up my argument. This isnt me rarely have seen a Trae Young game and just looking at RPM then going, okay he sucks.

[doordoor123]

I need to see Young in two years. I just think it was a whirlwind for him from college to the NBA, he also has a new coach and needs to change his body. I just think he needs one or two things to click and he’ll have it figured out. Not bad for a rookie though. He has some incredible passes that not even some of the best passers in the NBA can do.

[King Ken]

A few things. First his play with and without Collins. Even if we dont include last nights game

With Collins:
15/2/7 on 39/29/76 shooting with 4 turnovers

without Collins:
16/3/8 on 40/25/80 shooting with 4 turnovers

Again that is not including last nights game. Those numbers are very similar to one an another.

Second. Im not dismissing him based solely off of advanced stats. I am using advanced stats to backup my argument for his level of play, which I have seen. Again Ive seen a ton of Young before the NBA, saw him all SL, and about 15 games so far this year. Basically every time Ive watched him, I pretty much came away with the same thought I have had with him going back 2 years or so. Really bad defender, and while shows flashes as a shooter and scorer, he just ends up being a very high usage guard that has horrible shot selection which leads to horrible efficiency. I still see those same things with Young when I watch him in the NBA. So that is what I have seen, I then referenced the advanced stats because those stats paint a similar picture and backs up my argument. This isnt me rarely have seen a Trae Young game and just looking at RPM then going, okay he sucks.

The raw numbers are similar but the impact is not. Just in the last 12 games, Trae had a 0 or positive +/- in 10 of those games and it wasn't by mistake. It was simply due to Trae running the show well and getting everyone clean and high percentage looks without chucking us out of the game.

His shot selection has been solid over the last 12 games. Basically since the Boston game. He had an ankle injury he was playing with throughout mid to late Nov.

His defense has tremendously improved compared to Oct and Nov. Dec was a model month for him defensively. Now that doesn't mean he does have a lot of work to do in terms of off the ball D, PnR D, being aggressive in playing the passing lanes, getting stronger, attentiveness on the weak side, etc.

I see things completely different than you do. I think that's where we tail off.

I see his quickness and first step. His ability to get in the lane and finish at a high clip.
I see his elite vision and his constant creation of clean looks and how many of our players is having career years due to it and he's not even polished yet.
I see slasher who gets to spots at will and can still move the rock when stopped.
I also see someone with elite range who can spread the court at all times.
I see when he is a willing defender at he has excellent lateral quickness and doesn't get beat much on the dribble drive.

That said, is he consistent, no.
Is he physically where he needs to be? No
Does he help winning Basketball right now? Hell no.

So he needs to improve a lot, yes but he's extremely talented and he doesn't have that many flaws. He can dominate this game. He can do it for along time as well. So that's where we differ.

I see the talent, ability, skill-set, work ethic, fit, system, and personnel.

You see the adv stats, lack of polish, bad shots, and turnovers in the stat sheet.

I see them too. I am not denying it, but I'll be damn to deny that talent.

[King Ken]

Comparing him to CP3, Curry, or even Payton is a bit ridiculous. Young is talented but you can't just compare raw stats and forget everything else. Young has a negative win share! He's by far the worst defender on that list, and his scoring numbers kind of go out the window when you're not efficient and have a bad ts%. His passing is prob the only attribute you could make comparisons on. I've watched plenty of him too, especially in school. Vs Boston he was a -68 in two games and couldn't stay on the floor because of his defense. On the year Atlanta has a -10 rating when he's on the floor.

Let's think about this fully.

The worst defender on the list -

He had no defensive responsibility till this year. We saw that at OU he played no D. His college coach said he needed him for offense. This is what Kruger wanted. In HS, he played no D. So this is literally the first season he has played defense. He has a lot to learn. He is already understanding concepts but it's the innate parts as well as the off the ball coverage he is struggling with. Which is normal for a lot of NBA players but especially one like him. Now, we can all look to Ben Simmons as a, you see moment but we have to remember, Ben had a redshirt year last year. That said, Trae has shown good 1v1 defensive ability and he has good lateral quickness which helps him on D.

Is he really that inefficient? Since Collins and Huerter was inserted into the starting lineup, we seen a much more efficient Trae. This narrative was right when Trae was chucking a mess but that has not been the case since the Hawks pulled the green light from Young.

The Boston game was his worst game of the season. So since he was better than Luka v. Luka twice, should we say that's why he is better. Trae had some real stinkers this year. CHI, CLE, DEN, and TOR. Rookies have them. They are rookies and of all rookies, PG's have the most difficult job.

[Duke4life831]

A few things. First his play with and without Collins. Even if we dont include last nights game

With Collins:
15/2/7 on 39/29/76 shooting with 4 turnovers

without Collins:
16/3/8 on 40/25/80 shooting with 4 turnovers

Again that is not including last nights game. Those numbers are very similar to one an another.

Second. Im not dismissing him based solely off of advanced stats. I am using advanced stats to backup my argument for his level of play, which I have seen. Again Ive seen a ton of Young before the NBA, saw him all SL, and about 15 games so far this year. Basically every time Ive watched him, I pretty much came away with the same thought I have had with him going back 2 years or so. Really bad defender, and while shows flashes as a shooter and scorer, he just ends up being a very high usage guard that has horrible shot selection which leads to horrible efficiency. I still see those same things with Young when I watch him in the NBA. So that is what I have seen, I then referenced the advanced stats because those stats paint a similar picture and backs up my argument. This isnt me rarely have seen a Trae Young game and just looking at RPM then going, okay he sucks.

The raw numbers are similar but the impact is not. Just in the last 12 games, Trae had a 0 or positive +/- in 10 of those games and it wasn't by mistake. It was simply due to Trae running the show well and getting everyone clean and high percentage looks without chucking us out of the game.

His shot selection has been solid over the last 12 games. Basically since the Boston game. He had an ankle injury he was playing with throughout mid to late Nov.

His defense has tremendously improved compared to Oct and Nov. Dec was a model month for him defensively. Now that doesn't mean he does have a lot of work to do in terms of off the ball D, PnR D, being aggressive in playing the passing lanes, getting stronger, attentiveness on the weak side, etc.

I see things completely different than you do. I think that's where we tail off.

I see his quickness and first step. His ability to get in the lane and finish at a high clip.
I see his elite vision and his constant creation of clean looks and how many of our players is having career years due to it and he's not even polished yet.
I see slasher who gets to spots at will and can still move the rock when stopped.
I also see someone with elite range who can spread the court at all times.
I see when he is a willing defender at he has excellent lateral quickness and doesn't get beat much on the dribble drive.

That said, is he consistent, no.
Is he physically where he needs to be? No
Does he help winning Basketball right now? Hell no.

So he needs to improve a lot, yes but he's extremely talented and he doesn't have that many flaws. He can dominate this game. He can do it for along time as well. So that's where we differ.

I see the talent, ability, skill-set, work ethic, fit, system, and personnel.

You see the adv stats, lack of polish, bad shots, and turnovers in the stat sheet.

I see them too. I am not denying it, but I'll be damn to deny that talent.

Raw +/- is an extremely noisy stat, especially when looking at it on an individual game by game basis. But again this kind of goes back to you choosing the stats that best show him in a favorable light. Before the impact stats werent showing the best picture, raw pts and assists were showing the clearest picture. Now the numbers dont show the clearest picture, raw +/- does.

Its hard to find a good measure of defense, but his defensive rating in December was basically the same as Novembers and slightly higher than October. Even with a "good" defensive month, basically every statistic shows him to be one of the worst in the league on that side of the ball. ATL is still 8 points worse with him on the court defensively.

Im also not saying he has talent or skills. I agree he has a good first step. I dont agree with the notion of him finishing at the rim at a high clip, I would say 55% is probably average for a young guard. I think he has good vision but I dont see an elite facilitator. I also dont see the elite range either. He has basically always been a very poor 3pt shooter when it comes to percentages because of how deep he takes his 3s. He doesnt convert 3s at a good enough percentage where I think you can say he is an elite floor spacer.

And yes I think the bold is where we drastically differ (which is fine). I think he has plenty of flaws. Just as you think he can dominate the game for a long time, I think its very possible he flames out as well. But just 30 games into a career, both views are just personal opinion and way way too early to know who will be right. Chances are it will be somewhere in the middle.

Just on a side note. I have no problem with you going to bat for your boy. I do it for Duke guys and other prospects I really like all the time. My biggest thing is the "use common sense", "try watching" and other things like that. Dude we all (especially the people in the draft threads) watch a ton of basketball. I will say chances are 95% of the time someone disagrees with you (even if its major disagreements) its not because someone isnt using common sense or hasnt watched the guy play. Its just because they came away viewing the guys strengths and weaknesses differently. I know myself and many others on here who havent seen a certain player or prospect. Aint afraid to admit they havent seen much of that certain player.

[King Ken]

Raw +/- is an extremely noisy stat, especially when looking at it on an individual game by game basis. But again this kind of goes back to you choosing the stats that best show him in a favorable light. Before the impact stats werent showing the best picture, raw pts and assists were showing the clearest picture. Now the numbers dont show the clearest picture, raw +/- does.

Its hard to find a good measure of defense, but his defensive rating in December was basically the same as Novembers and slightly higher than October. Even with a "good" defensive month, basically every statistic shows him to be one of the worst in the league on that side of the ball. ATL is still 8 points worse with him on the court defensively.

Im also not saying he has talent or skills. I agree he has a good first step. I dont agree with the notion of him finishing at the rim at a high clip, I would say 55% is probably average for a young guard. I think he has good vision but I dont see an elite facilitator. I also dont see the elite range either. He has basically always been a very poor 3pt shooter when it comes to percentages because of how deep he takes his 3s. He doesnt convert 3s at a good enough percentage where I think you can say he is an elite floor spacer.

And yes I think the bold is where we drastically differ (which is fine). I think he has plenty of flaws. Just as you think he can dominate the game for a long time, I think its very possible he flames out as well. But just 30 games into a career, both views are just personal opinion and way way too early to know who will be right. Chances are it will be somewhere in the middle.

He has been playing well of late, especially defensively, if playing well makes you look in a more favorable light then damn, please continue this trend Trae. Come on, you really think I am just saying it to show that he's playing in a positive light. As if my post saying he has been playing much better with more specific details wasn't enough?

So DefRtg is suppose to be the God of telling me if my player can play good defense or not? I watched Al Horford for years! I have watched him always finishing below Millsap, Josh Smith, etc in DefRtg and other adv defensive stats. While being the one that defend the space, protects their asses, covers the guards and wings on PnR, covers any mistake made or just a player needing help and that gives them the ability to take chances, gets steals and look like All Defensive players when he did all of the damn work! Get outta here with this nonsense. This is the same one that used to tell me Avery Bradley was a bad defender.

That said, Trae was a much better defender of the last 8 games outside of the recent Washington game. I don't give a **** about his DefRtg. I don't even use it for none of the players especially after seeing how inconsistent it is. I watched the games. I seen his off ball defense which was average during these 8 games but much improved. I seen him fighting through screens, and seen him giving effort for 24 seconds. This is the same sentiment that Atlanta's GM stated as well in a recent interview
https://megaphone.link/LKN6872564539

Well, by high clip I mean high percentage for a PG. Considering he isn't a combo guard and his drives lead him to this more than just going at players, this is very impressive. A stat that makes it look like he's not the same PG as some think he maybe just looking at his size. I agree, he is not an elite playmaker but he clearly has elite vision. Saying anything else is hating like those Zion is Wiggins guys in Zion's thread.

He has basically always been a very poor 3pt shooter when it comes to percentages because of how deep he takes his 3s. He doesnt convert 3s at a good enough percentage where I think you can say he is an elite floor spacer.

This is your assumption. We haven't had anyone who does it but him do it at this rate. As of now, we have seen him shoot at 50% in the last 10 games from three. It seems like he is effective at it for now. I think he needs to change his form from shooting from the hip but all in all. The man can shoot, especially now that he is adjusting to NBA defense and is not forcing shots.

Most coaches in the NBA have said in pre-games that he is game changing floor spacer. So are they lying or are you right?
For example:

Watch on YouTube

I agree with the last paragraph outside of the end. It's fair. I don't think he will be in the middle. He will either boom or bust. Boom or bust don't go to the middle. That's not what they are. They are the ones we tend to either love or hate as prospects on average.

[nybluemeadow]

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

As I said, just don't go there. Curry and especially Paul were clearly better than Trae during their Rookie years. Curry's efficiency is just so much better than Trae's and that was in an environment in which league average efficiency was clearly worse. And while he was certainly below average defensively, he's still been clearly better than Trae and was generally better playing in system not revolving around him (although Trae has made some strides in this regard recently). Paul was just on another level. Better scorer, better playmaker, better defender. The numbers are a testament to that.

You should look beyond the mere volume numbers if you believe they have been comparable thus far. Young's USG% has been that of an All-Star. Yes, he'll accumulate numbers but he's done so extremely inefficiently thus far (terrible scoring efficiency and lots of turnovers) and completely neglected playing defense for the most part. Make no mistake: Young has been one of the worst players in the league this year in terms of impact. He has shown enough flashes and some recent improvement to still be an intriguing prospect who could become a really good player. But objectively speaking he's been terrible up to this point and only has this kind of usage and plays that many minutes because the Hawks are tanking and hope he can be a core piece of the future, and not because he's actually deserving all of that. This is something to always keep in mind when comparing players.

Actually both the raw numbers and shooting numbers are the same for both Trae and CP3, but Trae is doing alittle better because he is averaging less minutes.

In the first 40 games of their career...

CP3 15.4ppg, 7.2apg, 36.0mpg
Trae 15.6ppg, 7.4apg, 29.1mpg

Trae is shooting 28% from three and CP3 shot 29% from three.

As for over all FG, both Trae and CP3 are making 5 field goals a game, but CP3 was averaging 12 shots a game, while Trae averages 13 shots a game.

The biggest difference between the two is the turn overs. Trae has alot more, and he is playing 7 less minutes than CP3 did in his rookie season. But then again Trae is getting the same points, assist, and shooting that CP3 got with 7 less minutes.

If Trae turns into CP3 (especially in his 3rd year) and Doncic turns into Harden, then the Hawks won the trade, but if Doncic turns into Larry Bird, then the Mavs clearly wins the trade.

[BostonCouchGM]

Trae is doing much better than many prominent posters predicted. Steph was 21 y/o and had a slightly better rookie season than Trae. But remember, Trae is just 20 and the season is just half over and he's been playing better as the season has gone on. I'll admit he's been better getting to the rim and FT line than I thought he'd be this early. But he's a much worse three point shooter that probably even his biggest detractors would have predicted. He takes a lot of really stupid deep threes. Once he leads to just shoot better shots and his % increases he's going to be a really good PG. He's a great passer. Not good, great. Unfortunately for him he only has limited upside due to size/athleticism limitations. He can get more efficient and that'll be huge in itself. But he's not a guy who can ever develop back to the basket skills, attack the basket above the rim, be a lockdown defender or become a great rebounder. But that's okay. I think he'll end up being a flashier Mike Bibby. A higher scoring better passing Bibby and I think Atlanta would be very happy with that.

[thebigbird]

Half way through the season now, Trae looks ok, he is putting up similar number that Chris Paul put up in his rookie season. Although Trae is averaging more turn overs than CP3, but i'll give that a pass since Trae is a rookie and Paul had better teammates when he as a rookie in New Orleans.

Let's not start it off like this, comparing him to CP3. Let's just be happy that he seems to be settling in slowly, and finding ways to contribute on offense without playing his crazy high-usage game. Defense continues to be an issue, though.

Trae's rookie numbers are also comparable to Curry's rookie number, although Curry had a better 3pt shooting percentage than both CP3 and Trae.

Trae Young is shooting 28% from 3. Steph Curry shot 44% from 3 his rookie year. Yes, very comparable.

[wco81]

Curious to see what kind of 3s he's putting up.

Is he forcing those long 35-footers a lot?

Or trying to shoot off the dribble more instead of catch and shoot, the assisted 3s?

[clyde21]

Trae is doing much better than many prominent posters predicted. Steph was 21 y/o and had a slightly better rookie season than Trae.

'slightly better'?

Trae is shooting 39/28/79

Steph shot 46/44/89

but yes, it's still obviously way too early to say about Trae either way.