#10 Best Defensive SF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

dalton749 · Post #21 » by **dalton749** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 12:22 am

When Deng is making this list before kawhi you know it’s broken. The guy is a 2 time dpoy as a 27 year old wing. Some of these guys were good, but not even close to what kawhi has been so far.

HurricaneKid · Post #22 » by **HurricaneKid** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 1:29 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:Kawhi not making the list would almost invalidate it completely.

I've been saying Kawhi and AK47 since #6.

You guys are killing me. Completely overrating longevity and leaving out the best peak perimeter defenders of all time (outside of Scottie). I hate it.

Kawhi.

Post #23 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 2:18 am

dalton749 wrote:When Deng is making this list before kawhi you know it’s broken. The guy is a 2 time dpoy as a 27 year old wing. Some of these guys were good, but not even close to what kawhi has been so far.

HurricaneKid wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:Kawhi not making the list would almost invalidate it completely.

I've been saying Kawhi and AK47 since #6.

You guys are killing me. Completely overrating longevity and leaving out the best peak perimeter defenders of all time (outside of Scottie). I hate it.

Kawhi.

How do you know Kawhi peaked higher defensively than Deng (or all others---aside from Scottie, apparently)? What makes you say it so definitively?

Lost92Bricks · Post #24 » by **Lost92Bricks** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 2:57 am

trex_8063 wrote:How do you know Kawhi peaked higher defensively than Deng (or all others---aside from Scottie, apparently)? What makes you say it so definitively?

How many of them could say they were in the conversation for being the best defender in the league?

Post #25 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 3:01 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:How do you know Kawhi peaked higher defensively than Deng (or all others---aside from Scottie, apparently)? What makes you say it so definitively?

How many of them could say they were in the conversation for being the best defender in the league?

So based on what the media said then?

HeartBreakKid · Post #26 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 3:09 am

Kawhi Leonard has a defensive game where he stays in front of his opponents and doesn't really gamble - yet has more steals than personal fouls. That's a pretty crazy statistical anomaly. I don't think his longevity is even that poor for a defender.

dalton749 · Post #27 » by **dalton749** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 3:10 am

trex_8063 wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:How do you know Kawhi peaked higher defensively than Deng (or all others---aside from Scottie, apparently)? What makes you say it so definitively?

How many of them could say they were in the conversation for being the best defender in the league?

So based on what the media said then?

Because we have eyes which we use to watch basketball games, and also read stats. Did the guy just fool everyone into voting for him for dpoy twice in a row?

Post #28 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 6, 2018 3:47 am

Kawhi Leonard - 8 (cecilthesheep, KnickFan33, Samurai, trex_8063, Dr Positivity, SinceGatlingWasARookie, Lost92Bricks, HurricaneKid)
Andrei Kirilenko - 4 (penbeast0, WestGOAT, iggymcfrack, kendogg)

Will call it for Leonard, and we can get rolling on the PF's.......

Vladimir777 · Post #29 » by **Vladimir777** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 5:19 pm

I still don’t get how two-time DPOY Kawhi is only tenth in his position on this list. You guys did a great job in all of the other positions, but is there some kind of huge bias against him or something? I just don’t get it.

Owly · Post #30 » by **Owly** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 6:09 pm

Vladimir777 wrote:I still don’t get how two-time DPOY Kawhi is only tenth in his position on this list. You guys did a great job in all of the other positions, but is there some kind of huge bias against him or something? I just don’t get it.

The first port of call, as ever, is to read through the threads and see what cases were made for the people who you think he shouldn't be above. You will also see those who voted for him earlier.

Otoh, I would suggest that a lack of longevity (at this point) has hurt him.

I would also venture, as a personal opinion, that the SF ranks are quite close and somewhat fluid and that there was a fairly small voting pool. All of this [if true] would make it more possible for an in-prime player to leap up the rankings, especially if showing high impact on the defensive end.

Vladimir777 · Post #31 » by **Vladimir777** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 8:42 pm

Owly wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:I still don’t get how two-time DPOY Kawhi is only tenth in his position on this list. You guys did a great job in all of the other positions, but is there some kind of huge bias against him or something? I just don’t get it.

The first port of call, as ever, is to read through the threads and see what cases were made for the people who you think he shouldn't be above. You will also see those who voted for him earlier.

Otoh, I would suggest that a lack of longevity (at this point) has hurt him.

I would also venture, as a personal opinion, that the SF ranks are quite close and somewhat fluid and that there was a fairly small voting pool. All of this [if true] would make it more possible for an in-prime player to leap up the rankings, especially if showing high impact on the defensive end.

What I gathered from the voting threads was the lack of longevity argument, but then LBJ was voted in at #3, even though everyone makes the claim he doesn’t play defense anymore and hasn’t for a fair while outside of key playoffs match-ups, etc. Deng has one All-NBA 2nd Defensive Team selection. Kawhi has won more DPoYs than Deng has 2nd Team Defensive selections.

Also, having read through the threads, it sounds like “Kawhi’s supporters” stopped voting in later rounds, so I guess my frustration is with them. Why stop voting? That angry about early results? I know people were surprised LBJ was voted so high.

I personally don’t know enough about stats or defense to really comment and certainly not vote here, but just saying it seems like a frustrating result, especially given how on-point the rest of the project is.

So you’re saying there’s a lot of SFs very close in quality to each other (I’m assuming behind Pippen, who’s on another level)? That might be the case, and interesting, if so.

Thanks for your response, btw.

Post #32 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 11:08 pm

For me, as I didn't even vote for Kawhi 10th, it was (1st) Eye test: I was never impressed enough with Kawhi to vote for him for DPOY, good defender, didn't see greatness . . . especially after he became a prime scorer. More a great defensive scheme than great individual defense. Admittedly I don't watch as much basketball as I used to. (2) Longevity: many of the players had long, outstanding defensive careers. (3) Defensive stats: Guys like Deng were massively helped by the RAPM type of stats as their primary argument; it helps that the people that passionately believe in those stats are excellent persuasive writers as well. (4) LeBron got a bit overrated quite possibly; like Jordan, there are a lot of people who believe in him quite strongly in almost anything.

Vladimir777 · Post #33 » by **Vladimir777** » Tue Jan 8, 2019 2:27 pm

penbeast0 wrote:For me, as I didn't even vote for Kawhi 10th, it was (1st) Eye test: I was never impressed enough with Kawhi to vote for him for DPOY, good defender, didn't see greatness . . . especially after he became a prime scorer. More a great defensive scheme than great individual defense. Admittedly I don't watch as much basketball as I used to. (2) Longevity: many of the players had long, outstanding defensive careers. (3) Defensive stats: Guys like Deng were massively helped by the RAPM type of stats as their primary argument; it helps that the people that passionately believe in those stats are excellent persuasive writers as well. (4) LeBron got a bit overrated quite possibly; like Jordan, there are a lot of people who believe in him quite strongly in almost anything.

Thanks for the response! Yes, I’ve noticed that those very into stats on this website are also great writers.

WestGOAT · Post #34 » by **WestGOAT** » Tue Jan 8, 2019 2:35 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Guys like Deng were massively helped by the RAPM type of stats

Where can you find RAPM stats?

Post #35 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Jan 8, 2019 4:13 pm

Not sure, I am not one of the big RAPM guys, though I listen to those who want to use it, hopefully one of the guys who are stat smart will check in and answer.

euroleague · Post #36 » by **euroleague** » Sun Nov 3, 2019 10:26 am

I fail to understand why voters look at RS minutes and availability, but don’t take Kawhi’s defensive accomplishments in the postseason into account.

Kawhi’s work on Lebron in 14 is best compared to Payton on MJ or Thurmond on Kareem in terms of career defining performances.

Then in 17, swapping to Conley and locking him down off position while still carrying his team offensively.

I honestly can’t fathom valuing longevity to such an extent that Battier is twice as high as Kawhi

freethedevil · Post #37 » by **freethedevil** » Sun Nov 3, 2019 1:43 pm

euroleague wrote:I fail to understand why voters look at RS minutes and availability, but don’t take Kawhi’s defensive accomplishments in the postseason into account.

Kawhi’s work on Lebron in 14

Man defense<<<<<everything else defensiely

70sFan · Post #38 » by **70sFan** » Sun Nov 3, 2019 1:51 pm

freethedevil wrote:
euroleague wrote:I fail to understand why voters look at RS minutes and availability, but don’t take Kawhi’s defensive accomplishments in the postseason into account.

Kawhi’s work on Lebron in 14

Man defense<<<<<everything else defensiely

It's not that simple. A team with good, smart off-ball defenders won't do much against someone like LeBron or Shaq. You need to have at least one decent perimeter man defender and one strong big to be good defensively.

Iggy was huge for Warriors defense.
Thurmond won series for Warriors against much better Bucks due to his man defense.
Cooper was essential for Showtime Lakers.

Every part of defense is important.

Jaivl · Post #39 » by **Jaivl** » Mon Nov 4, 2019 1:30 am

Vladimir777 wrote:I still don’t get how two-time DPOY Kawhi is only tenth in his position on this list. You guys did a great job in all of the other positions, but is there some kind of huge bias against him or something? I just don’t get it.

I don't get how Kirilenko, a better defender than half this list including Kawhi, didn't make the cut

thebigbird · Post #40 » by **thebigbird** » Mon Nov 4, 2019 1:39 am

euroleague wrote:I fail to understand why voters look at RS minutes and availability, but don’t take Kawhi’s defensive accomplishments in the postseason into account.

Kawhi’s work on Lebron in 14 is best compared to Payton on MJ or Thurmond on Kareem in terms of career defining performances.

Then in 17, swapping to Conley and locking him down off position while still carrying his team offensively.

I honestly can’t fathom valuing longevity to such an extent that Battier is twice as high as Kawhi

LeBron averaged 28.2 ppg on 68% TS in the 2014 finals. Holding him to his career playoff average on insane efficiency isn't some kind of career accomplishment.