Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XX: Year of the Vuc

[magicman112]

Exactly this is getting ridiculous now. Evaluation year. Ok, I'll buy that but we are almost through the next year after that so called evaluation year and very minor changes to a roster that everyone and their mother knows just is not good. Too many players with losing attitudes Clifford has done a pretty good job but you can't outcoach a bad team.

[OrlandoNed]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

I'm amazed by your obliviousness.

People are saying we F'd up the rebuild by focusing on defense and ignoring the offense. We need to trade Vuc and Ross to reboot the rebuild. And guess what, we already stuck in nowhere with them.

Some of us are sentient human beings that can think a few steps ahead in the long term. Not all Magic fans are brainless goldfish or knuckle-dragging cavemen who's brain can't go beyond 'eat', 'sleep' and 'f@@k'.

[magicman112]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

I'm amazed by your obliviousness.

People are saying we F'd up the rebuild by focusing on defense and ignoring the offense. We need to trade Vuc and Ross to reboot the rebuild. And guess what, we already stuck in nowhere with them.

Some of us are sentient human beings that can think a few steps ahead in the long term. Not all Magic fans are brainless goldfish or knuckle-dragging cavemen who's brain can't go beyond 'eat', 'sleep' and 'f@@k'.

Just like what Jimmy Johnson did trading Herschel Walker. He was their best player and the only offense they had but he had to do it in order to get better.

[OrlandoNed]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

I'm amazed by your obliviousness.

People are saying we F'd up the rebuild by focusing on defense and ignoring the offense. We need to trade Vuc and Ross to reboot the rebuild. And guess what, we already stuck in nowhere with them.

Some of us are sentient human beings that can think a few steps ahead in the long term. Not all Magic fans are brainless goldfish or knuckle-dragging cavemen who's brain can't go beyond 'eat', 'sleep' and 'f@@k'.

Just like what Jimmy Johnson did trading Herschel Walker. He was their best player and the only offense they had but he had to do it in order to get better.

Not the exact analogy I'd use, but close.

The situation is basically the sunk cost fallacy. It's sinking money into a crappy car to keep it on the road when it's more logical and cost-effective to just buy a new one. You have to know when to cut your losses and start over.

[EAS Law]

Basically what I see here is:

“Evan Fournier and Vucevic are trash and have zero value”

“We need direction in this organization”

*team attempts to build winning culture and win games*

“Why the F are we winning games!?!?”

“We need to trade *our allegedly valueless assets* for some promising young talent and PICKSSSS”

Picks turn out to be awful picks or 2nd rounders

“We need direction on this team!”

*finds new player as scapegoat*

“We need to trade *whomever*.... why the F aren’t we in the playoffs yet!?”

It doesn’t work fellas. As Hombre said and has BEEN saying, you have just as good a chance to screw up a high pick as you do selecting a superstar later in the draft. Plus, you aren’t winning nor building a winning culture with your other high picks, which is a huge development problem, and your team looks like the last place any good player wants to sign because you’re tanking every year.

How many more years do you need to see of a Vuc lead offense to learn that it’s not getting us anywhere? Imagine if the Nets just kept trying to win with Brook Lopez instead of trading him for youth (Russell)?

Sunk cost man.

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season. Vuc, however, is playing like an all-star.

My basic point is that while I agree that we are in need of improvement all around, the idea that there is some easy formula that leads to success is inaccurate. There are tons of variables that explain why we are in the position we are in, and unfortunately, some of it is just bad luck.

We need to give more than half a season of development to guys before we deem they’re busts or simply discredit all of the improvement they DO show (like AG becoming a much better shooter), simply because they’re not considered superstars in year 3,4 or 5.

Just be patient. WeHam is allegedly working on PG trade scenarios and the team is in a position to take advantage of cap room. We aren’t in a hopeless spot. Lots of teams build from middle of the pack to contender—think Houston, Denver, Utah, Toronto, Milwaukee... it can be done and much more frequently than is admitted here.

[JF5]

We've got to stop doing this to ourselves... The trade happened almost 3 years ago... LET IT GO...

Hard to do it when Magic in 2017 failed at tanking and took Isaac where, if they sucked bit more ,without moral wins at end of a year could take Tatum or Fox.
2018 is even worst, one usless win vs Dallas was difference between Bamba and Dončić.

But Pepe, in all honesty, and I do think your posts are almost always very well-grounded in fact, we probably wouldn’t have taken Fox and MAYBE would have taken Tatum anyway. Isaac was very seriously considered on the edge of top 4 prospects leading up to the draft. Tatum was a bit of a shock at 3. We all know that the consensus would have put us at Josh Jackson or Isaac even if we were drafting top 3 or 4.

This is the problem with the outlook on the board—any player that turns out to be good is assumed to have been within our realistic plans but for some huge mistake.

For example, Dipo looked VERY mediocre with us AND OKC. He only just started playing at a high level in Inidana and I’m sure a huge part of that was being in a place he feels at home.

Isaac was always going to be a project and he could still end up being amazing. What we have to look for from all of our guys is improvement each year and I think it’s safe to say that we are seeing that from AG and Isaac at least. Bamba we will see, but we let go of Dipo and Elfrid because they looked like the plateaued to be fair. They just happened to put it together now.

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

[MoMM]

If we don't make the playoffs and get lucky during the lottery, draft a Zion or Barrett, I'd say we would kind of become a contender in one year. It's faster than trading our OK assets for nothing and then waiting 3-4 years while our rookies PERHAPS develop and become something useful.

C: Vuc / Bamba
PF: Gordon / Isaac
SF: Zion or Barrett / Ross
SG: Evan / Iwundu / (Combo guard with Cavs 2nd round pick)
PG: DJ / Free Agent

In case we don't get lucky, we can draft Reddish, Rui or whoever, it's not that bad too.

[OrlandoNed]

Hard to do it when Magic in 2017 failed at tanking and took Isaac where, if they sucked bit more ,without moral wins at end of a year could take Tatum or Fox.
2018 is even worst, one usless win vs Dallas was difference between Bamba and Dončić.

But Pepe, in all honesty, and I do think your posts are almost always very well-grounded in fact, we probably wouldn’t have taken Fox and MAYBE would have taken Tatum anyway. Isaac was very seriously considered on the edge of top 4 prospects leading up to the draft. Tatum was a bit of a shock at 3. We all know that the consensus would have put us at Josh Jackson or Isaac even if we were drafting top 3 or 4.

This is the problem with the outlook on the board—any player that turns out to be good is assumed to have been within our realistic plans but for some huge mistake.

For example, Dipo looked VERY mediocre with us AND OKC. He only just started playing at a high level in Inidana and I’m sure a huge part of that was being in a place he feels at home.

Isaac was always going to be a project and he could still end up being amazing. What we have to look for from all of our guys is improvement each year and I think it’s safe to say that we are seeing that from AG and Isaac at least. Bamba we will see, but we let go of Dipo and Elfrid because they looked like the plateaued to be fair. They just happened to put it together now.

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

[doct3r dr3]

..

Isaac Starting: 7-16 (.304)

Isaac Bench: 6-5 (.545)

Isaac DNP: 4-2 (.667)

[EAS Law]

But Pepe, in all honesty, and I do think your posts are almost always very well-grounded in fact, we probably wouldn’t have taken Fox and MAYBE would have taken Tatum anyway. Isaac was very seriously considered on the edge of top 4 prospects leading up to the draft. Tatum was a bit of a shock at 3. We all know that the consensus would have put us at Josh Jackson or Isaac even if we were drafting top 3 or 4.

This is the problem with the outlook on the board—any player that turns out to be good is assumed to have been within our realistic plans but for some huge mistake.

For example, Dipo looked VERY mediocre with us AND OKC. He only just started playing at a high level in Inidana and I’m sure a huge part of that was being in a place he feels at home.

Isaac was always going to be a project and he could still end up being amazing. What we have to look for from all of our guys is improvement each year and I think it’s safe to say that we are seeing that from AG and Isaac at least. Bamba we will see, but we let go of Dipo and Elfrid because they looked like the plateaued to be fair. They just happened to put it together now.

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

I can’t really argue with you there. If this is the central point about the team needing “direction” then I agree.

[thelead]

Hard to do it when Magic in 2017 failed at tanking and took Isaac where, if they sucked bit more ,without moral wins at end of a year could take Tatum or Fox.
2018 is even worst, one usless win vs Dallas was difference between Bamba and Dončić.

But Pepe, in all honesty, and I do think your posts are almost always very well-grounded in fact, we probably wouldn’t have taken Fox and MAYBE would have taken Tatum anyway. Isaac was very seriously considered on the edge of top 4 prospects leading up to the draft. Tatum was a bit of a shock at 3. We all know that the consensus would have put us at Josh Jackson or Isaac even if we were drafting top 3 or 4.

This is the problem with the outlook on the board—any player that turns out to be good is assumed to have been within our realistic plans but for some huge mistake.

For example, Dipo looked VERY mediocre with us AND OKC. He only just started playing at a high level in Inidana and I’m sure a huge part of that was being in a place he feels at home.

Isaac was always going to be a project and he could still end up being amazing. What we have to look for from all of our guys is improvement each year and I think it’s safe to say that we are seeing that from AG and Isaac at least. Bamba we will see, but we let go of Dipo and Elfrid because they looked like the plateaued to be fair. They just happened to put it together now.

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

To be fair, Oladipo and Harris had BIG games very early (even Harris was scoring as a rookie in Milwaukee when given minutes). They did show flashes of LEADING the team to victory (~30 point games/ game winning shots). Bamba gets a pass because he’s a rook that hasn’t gotten a ton of playing time but Isaac hasn’t shown a damn thing on offense. He has shown flashes of defensive greatness but his ability to look like Harkless at times is very concerning.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Realistically I don’t think WeHam is sitting around doing nothing. We’re just not hearing anything so to us they’re doing nothing. Let’s be honest.

[j-ragg]

Realistically I don’t think WeHam is sitting around doing nothing. We’re just not hearing anything so to us they’re doing nothing. Let’s be honest.

It’s not just now but throughout their tenure. Just haven’t done much of anything. Drafted projects, signed dog **** Simmons and traded Elf for Justin Jackson who’ll never see a Magic jersey.

I could see it if we were kind of a brand new team when they came in, but we’ve had the same core and have had the same deficiencies for so long.

[pepe1991]

I joined forum in 2016 so for damn sure i wasn't bashing Harris and Oladipo, i wasn't here

I went back to see what i posted about trades when they happend on OPP

After Harris trade :

I think that live game trands will be epic
people wll lose their mind when they see Jennings shot selection.

I remember him from his days in Europe, Italy, coaches were going crazy over his pull up random 3s…. 8 years passed by and he still does the same wtf moves

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 16, 2016 | 3:06 PM

or less money...
And getting rid of him looks like knee jerk type reaction on overpaying him ( that’s just my opinion tho )

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 16, 2016 | 4:37 PM

They picked Harris because they didn't want to lose him for nothing
i almost got buried alive when i said it 2 weeks ago…he was like consolation award for not getting Millsap

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 17, 2016 | 4:53 AM

I even argued payton is much better player than Jennings


Oladipo trade:

for whatever reason i didn't post that much, i was more engaged into potential Durant destinations but i posted this so i guess i wasn't high on Evan ( i know i got banned once for bashing him and calling him and Skiles French lovers )
Near the end of SG saga i was leaning toward keeping Evan because i got tired of Oladipo's heroic attemps to be more than he was at that moment. And indeed that trade saved his career as he went to OKC and learned how to be a star. Good for him.

Because Fournier proved he can carry
like in games where Oladipo was hurt, he was nothing but Pure Magic 20% FG ,5-25 shooting

Posted by petar.gulin on Jan 23, 2016 | 5:11 PM

I would like to adress one thing regardless this forum. It's ok to change your opinion with more facts,data and games being thrown at you.

“Only fools and dead men don't change their minds. Fools won't and dead men can't.” -- John Henry Patterson

[JF5]

But Pepe, in all honesty, and I do think your posts are almost always very well-grounded in fact, we probably wouldn’t have taken Fox and MAYBE would have taken Tatum anyway. Isaac was very seriously considered on the edge of top 4 prospects leading up to the draft. Tatum was a bit of a shock at 3. We all know that the consensus would have put us at Josh Jackson or Isaac even if we were drafting top 3 or 4.

This is the problem with the outlook on the board—any player that turns out to be good is assumed to have been within our realistic plans but for some huge mistake.

For example, Dipo looked VERY mediocre with us AND OKC. He only just started playing at a high level in Inidana and I’m sure a huge part of that was being in a place he feels at home.

Isaac was always going to be a project and he could still end up being amazing. What we have to look for from all of our guys is improvement each year and I think it’s safe to say that we are seeing that from AG and Isaac at least. Bamba we will see, but we let go of Dipo and Elfrid because they looked like the plateaued to be fair. They just happened to put it together now.

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

Yeah I agree with this... But to defend them I don't think they initially believed they would have a possibility of a playoff run until the team started off as well as they did combined with how bad the bottom of the Eastern Conference turned out to be.

I think the plan was to Tank/Develop and provide structure for the young guys while improving the value of the talent of roster so they could move them for better/younger pieces. Then they would have enough money during the off-season to throw money at a big name Free-agent/Potential based young players to grow with what they have.

Now I believe with the rise of Vucevic they're kind of second guessing that plan and probably trying to figure out a way if they could try to win now and potentially rebuild the team into a semi-contender in one to two seasons.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Realistically I don’t think WeHam is sitting around doing nothing. We’re just not hearing anything so to us they’re doing nothing. Let’s be honest.

It’s not just now but throughout their tenure. Just haven’t done much of anything. Drafted projects, signed dog **** Simmons and traded Elf for Justin Jackson who’ll never see a Magic jersey.

I could see it if we were kind of a brand new team when they came in, but we’ve had the same core and have had the same deficiencies for so long.

i mean.. I get it, i wouldn’t trust them to pick up a guy with an elite skill set over a guy with elite length but I just don’t think they’re ACTUALLY doing nothing.

[Blue_and_Whte]

This has been my issue with Pepe's post for the last few months. He champions guys like Oladipo/Harris for playing at star levels currently but fails to realize the YEARS of ridicule and criticisms these guys had gotten when they were in Orlando. The vast amount of posters saying they'd never be stars and quitting on them after 2-3 years of development (Even though they were pretty young guys).

Now he's doing the same thing that the fans did a few years ago to those guys to Issac and Bamba and wants to trade them away not even within a year of proper development. These guys are projects and its obvious its going to take a few years before we see any sort of tangible results from them. The physical tools are there for both of them, people just have to have a lot more patience.

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

Yeah I agree with this... But to defend them I don't think they initially believed they would have a possibility of a playoff run until the team started off as well as they did combined with how bad the bottom of the Eastern Conference turned out to be.

I think the plan was to Tank/Develop and provide structure for the young guys while improving the value of the talent of roster so they could move them for better/younger pieces. Then they would have enough money during the off-season to throw money at a big name Free-agent/Potential based young players to grow with what they have.

Now I believe with the rise of Vucevic they're kind of second guessing that plan and probably trying to figure out a way if they could try to win now and potentially rebuild the team into a semi-contender in one to two seasons.

the one problem I have with comparing Bamba, Tobias and Dipo, is that the latter were showing SOMETHING. I agree that people gave up on them too soon but I don’t think it’s the same situation with Bamba.

I don’t think 20 year old players who’ve played basketball most of their lives are so raw that they can’t do ANYTHING in the NBA. Least of all guys picked 6th, with long arms who displayed translatable skills at the collegiate level. I’ve watched the NBA for over 30 years and the one constant is that most of the time you catch glimpses of what a young player will become within the first few games. I just don’t believe the hype And I don’t see anything special but I truly hope I’m wrong.

[drsd]

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season.

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

[Blue_and_Whte]

I joined forum in 2016 so for damn sure i wasn't bashing Harris and Oladipo, i wasn't here

I went back to see what i posted about trades when they happend on OPP

After Harris trade :

I think that live game trands will be epic
people wll lose their mind when they see Jennings shot selection.

I remember him from his days in Europe, Italy, coaches were going crazy over his pull up random 3s…. 8 years passed by and he still does the same wtf moves

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 16, 2016 | 3:06 PM

or less money...
And getting rid of him looks like knee jerk type reaction on overpaying him ( that’s just my opinion tho )

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 16, 2016 | 4:37 PM

They picked Harris because they didn't want to lose him for nothing
i almost got buried alive when i said it 2 weeks ago…he was like consolation award for not getting Millsap

Posted by Petar Gulin on Feb 17, 2016 | 4:53 AM

I even argued payton is much better player than Jennings


Oladipo trade:

for whatever reason i didn't post that much, i was more engaged into potential Durant destinations but i posted this so i guess i wasn't high on Evan ( i know i got banned once for bashing him and calling him and Skiles French lovers )
Near the end of SG saga i was leaning toward keeping Evan because i got tired of Oladipo's heroic attemps to be more than he was at that moment. And indeed that trade saved his career as he went to OKC and learned how to be a star. Good for him.

Because Fournier proved he can carry
like in games where Oladipo was hurt, he was nothing but Pure Magic 20% FG ,5-25 shooting

Posted by petar.gulin on Jan 23, 2016 | 5:11 PM

I would like to adress one thing regardless this forum. It's ok to change your opinion with more facts,data and games being thrown at you.

“Only fools and dead men don't change their minds. Fools won't and dead men can't.” -- John Henry Patterson

lol that trade didn’t save his career. He would’ve figured out what he needed to do eventually. He would’ve just come to that conclusion a different way. He was a dynamic player even when he wasn’t good at finishing. You don’t trade those guys away.

[basketballRob]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

If we tank they should be traded if anyone wants them. It wouldn't take much next offseason to replace them.