Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XX: Year of the Vuc

[JF5]

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

Yeah I agree with this... But to defend them I don't think they initially believed they would have a possibility of a playoff run until the team started off as well as they did combined with how bad the bottom of the Eastern Conference turned out to be.

I think the plan was to Tank/Develop and provide structure for the young guys while improving the value of the talent of roster so they could move them for better/younger pieces. Then they would have enough money during the off-season to throw money at a big name Free-agent/Potential based young players to grow with what they have.

Now I believe with the rise of Vucevic they're kind of second guessing that plan and probably trying to figure out a way if they could try to win now and potentially rebuild the team into a semi-contender in one to two seasons.

the one problem I have with comparing Bamba, Tobias and Dipo, is that the latter were showing SOMETHING. I agree that people gave up on them too soon but I don’t think it’s the same situation with Bamba.

I don’t think 20 year old players who’ve played basketball most of their lives are so raw that they can’t do ANYTHING in the NBA. Least of all guys picked 6th, with long arms who displayed translatable skills at the collegiate level. I’ve watched the NBA for over 30 years and the one constant is that most of the time you catch glimpses of what a young player will become within the first few games. I just don’t believe the hype And I don’t see anything special but I truly hope I’m wrong.

Yeah, you and Lead bring up some great points. Players do show some flashes of greatness in their first couple years. I think for me personally I see something in both where the physical tools for both are too sexy to ignore and giving up on them as a potential tandem so soon could be a mistake. They don't have to be stars but they can be very impactful on the defensive side of the ball. It is essentially a long game with these two anyway (No Pun intended) so we'll see what they semi become is 2-3 years together whether if they do/don't work out together.

[basketballRob]

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season.

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

[j-ragg]

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season.

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

Shouldn’t be starting on his current one.

I don’t buy that there’s a very big difference between playing shooting guard and small forward for him. He has the same role on offense, he just has opposing two guards guarding him. I think he’s just stunk all year.

[VFX]

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season.

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

He’s an upgrade over Roberson in OKC and they need shooting. He’s also an upgrade over Mathews in Dallas or could find a spot in New York.

[rcklsscognition]

We don't have a SF, why not just move Fournier back to SF and put AG at the PF, Isaac on the bench from the 4?

DJ/Iwundu/Fournier/AG/Vucevic
Brisco/Ross/Simmons/Isaac/Bamba

Welham can sit on their hands for a while longer while 'attempting' to acquire a PG. We need a PG badly, either a starter or a backup. That can and should be taken care of soon. As we get towards the draft and summer the other needs are going to be 1, possibly 2 SGs and a SF. If hopefully Simmons leaves, we'd need 2 SFs this summer.

[basketballRob]

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

He’s an upgrade over Roberson in OKC and they need shooting. He’s also an upgrade over Mathews in Dallas or could find a spot in New York.

You think he's better than Hardaway in NY? Plus they have that Trier guy. I really think his problem is defense not offense, I'm not sure how a Doncic and Fournier combo would work. I kind of doubt he'd start over Roberson too, because of defense.

I've really been watching him lately and he's just not as athletic as the player that's been guarding him. He has a hard time staying in front of players and he doesn't win too many battles for rebounds.

[Optimus_Steel]

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

He’s an upgrade over Roberson in OKC and they need shooting. He’s also an upgrade over Mathews in Dallas or could find a spot in New York.

Speaking of patience, the guys who could use some are Weltman and Hammond. If you yell from the rooftops that you are aiming to make the playoffs, maybe it's not prudent to grab 2 super raw prospects in consecutive years and expect them to really contribute in a playoff contending rotation.

Yeah I agree with this... But to defend them I don't think they initially believed they would have a possibility of a playoff run until the team started off as well as they did combined with how bad the bottom of the Eastern Conference turned out to be.

I think the plan was to Tank/Develop and provide structure for the young guys while improving the value of the talent of roster so they could move them for better/younger pieces. Then they would have enough money during the off-season to throw money at a big name Free-agent/Potential based young players to grow with what they have.

Now I believe with the rise of Vucevic they're kind of second guessing that plan and probably trying to figure out a way if they could try to win now and potentially rebuild the team into a semi-contender in one to two seasons.

the one problem I have with comparing Bamba, Tobias and Dipo, is that the latter were showing SOMETHING. I agree that people gave up on them too soon but I don’t think it’s the same situation with Bamba.

I don’t think 20 year old players who’ve played basketball most of their lives are so raw that they can’t do ANYTHING in the NBA. Least of all guys picked 6th, with long arms who displayed translatable skills at the collegiate level. I’ve watched the NBA for over 30 years and the one constant is that most of the time you catch glimpses of what a young player will become within the first few games. I just don’t believe the hype And I don’t see anything special but I truly hope I’m wrong.

I agree. By now a rookie should have shown star potential. I have not seen that from either Issac or Bamba. They look like role players to me, average guys with long arms. These guys do not have the skill set to be 1st or 2nd options on good teams. 3rd option is even debatable. I look at a long tall guy like Porzingas and within his first 20 games he showed star ability. He was producing early on.

[Def Swami]

Read on Twitter

Each Orlando Magic coach of the rebuild has eventually come to this public quote. Each one. They say they have the answers during their job interview, they get hired, they blow some smoke up the player's asses in training camp. Then we hit a rough patch, coach says they're going to make some rotation changes and that'll fix it right up!

It does, for like 3 games, then another rough patch. Coach says they've got to keep fighting and we have some sort of a "must win" setup. We fail at it.

Coach eventually full-on breaks down and admits defeat. This is when they are usually fired to be honest. Clifford got here pretty fast, but looking at his quote, he's one stage before the end I think, he doesn't quite go there like the others eventually did. Skiles mentioned these words on January 15th or 16th I think. Vogel was in February sometime I believe. Vaughn maybe even said them in his job interview, probably.

All I can say is that I'm glad Clifford is saying it. I hope he is a force that enables some change because this is some bush-league basketball we are watching. We got 1 point guard and 1 g-league not drafted guy who is 50lbs overweight in the most critical position to this team and we not only didn't draft anyone to help, but then almost seemingly avoided trying to get any players that would help correct the deficiencies of our other players.

LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE COACH

I don't know how many more coaches it's going to take.

[OrlandO]

We don't have a SF, why not just move Fournier back to SF and put AG at the PF, Isaac on the bench from the 4?

DJ/Iwundu/Fournier/AG/Vucevic
Brisco/Ross/Simmons/Isaac/Bamba

Welham can sit on their hands for a while longer while 'attempting' to acquire a PG.

Seems Gordon was scoring a lot better during the stint with Iwundu starting... and Isaac was scoring better as a backup.

With Iwundu starting (18 mpg): 8-4
With Isaac starting (25 mpg): 7-15

I still believe in Isaac and I'm not much of a fan of Iwundu... but is this anything?

I also wonder if Isaac has hit some kind of "rookie" wall since this is his first real full season... his 1.8 rebounds per game the last 6 games is just odd for an athletic 7 footer.

[yoyojw17]

We don't have a SF, why not just move Fournier back to SF and put AG at the PF, Isaac on the bench from the 4?

DJ/Iwundu/Fournier/AG/Vucevic
Brisco/Ross/Simmons/Isaac/Bamba

Welham can sit on their hands for a while longer while 'attempting' to acquire a PG.

Seems Gordon was scoring a lot better during the stint with Iwundu starting... and Isaac was scoring better as a backup.

With Iwundu starting (18 mpg): 8-4
With Isaac starting (25 mpg): 7-15

I still believe in Isaac and I'm not much of a fan of Iwundu... but is this anything?

I also wonder if Isaac has hit some kind of "rookie" wall since this is his first real full season... his 1.8 rebounds per game the last 6 games is just odd for a 7 footer.

Was wondering about the exact same thing recently and was totally open to giving it another try. They actually seemed to play their best ball during that stretch... AG and JI that is. Iwundu in my option just made things happen... and AG was back at the PF position. In this situation AG and JI predominantly played at the pf positions and had more well defined rolls that reflect their current level of talent and play.

[NavalAviator94]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

I'm amazed by your obliviousness.

People are saying we F'd up the rebuild by focusing on defense and ignoring the offense. We need to trade Vuc and Ross to reboot the rebuild. And guess what, we already stuck in nowhere with them.

Some of us are sentient human beings that can think a few steps ahead in the long term. Not all Magic fans are brainless goldfish or knuckle-dragging cavemen who's brain can't go beyond 'eat', 'sleep' and 'f@@k'.

I’m amazed at the strategery on this board from time to time.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

[NavalAviator94]

We don't have a SF, why not just move Fournier back to SF and put AG at the PF, Isaac on the bench from the 4?

DJ/Iwundu/Fournier/AG/Vucevic
Brisco/Ross/Simmons/Isaac/Bamba

Welham can sit on their hands for a while longer while 'attempting' to acquire a PG.

Seems Gordon was scoring a lot better during the stint with Iwundu starting... and Isaac was scoring better as a backup.

With Iwundu starting (18 mpg): 8-4
With Isaac starting (25 mpg): 7-15

I still believe in Isaac and I'm not much of a fan of Iwundu... but is this anything?

I also wonder if Isaac has hit some kind of "rookie" wall since this is his first real full season... his 1.8 rebounds per game the last 6 games is just odd for an athletic 7 footer.

I’ve wondered this myself. He’s got 60 games under his belt now, which is still rookie territory. He’s played more games than he ever has this year and those skinny legs aren’t prepared. This makes a lot of sense based on how he looks.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

[woosah]

Read on Twitter

Each Orlando Magic coach of the rebuild has eventually come to this public quote. Each one. They say they have the answers during their job interview, they get hired, they blow some smoke up the player's asses in training camp. Then we hit a rough patch, coach says they're going to make some rotation changes and that'll fix it right up!

It does, for like 3 games, then another rough patch. Coach says they've got to keep fighting and we have some sort of a "must win" setup. We fail at it.

Coach eventually full-on breaks down and admits defeat. This is when they are usually fired to be honest. Clifford got here pretty fast, but looking at his quote, he's one stage before the end I think, he doesn't quite go there like the others eventually did. Skiles mentioned these words on January 15th or 16th I think. Vogel was in February sometime I believe. Vaughn maybe even said them in his job interview, probably.

All I can say is that I'm glad Clifford is saying it. I hope he is a force that enables some change because this is some bush-league basketball we are watching. We got 1 point guard and 1 g-league not drafted guy who is 50lbs overweight in the most critical position to this team and we not only didn't draft anyone to help, but then almost seemingly avoided trying to get any players that would help correct the deficiencies of our other players.

LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE COACH

I don't know how many more coaches it's going to take.

Yeah this is the quote i referenced before when i said he sounded depressed (his tone). He sounded like he was about to pull his hair out (if he had any lol). Clearly he's beyond frustrated.

[drsd]

DJ/Iwundu/Fournier/AG/Vucevic

Having these five start allows ....

Seems Gordon was scoring a lot better during the stint with Iwundu starting... and Isaac was scoring better as a backup.

.... Isaac to play off Ross.

Right now the Magic bench is such a mess, this sort of (re)arrangement, in some form, needs to be made.


Coach Clifford has been harping about spacing. I think Isaac will find better spacing playing off of Ross.

Plus bench rebounding must improve. There again having Isaac on the second unit makes more sense.
..

[drsd]

The problem with Isaac on the bench is that it is exclusively about win-now. It is not the best developmental path.

[Skybox]

Just for the record...

proposing a trade for a BIG player doesn't mean you "wrote them off"...I think all 3 of them are likely to be good players but different assets have different value in trades.

If you want to propose trades for the Beals of the world, expect to ante up. Sometimes, good organizations make moves based on need, not just BPA. Not saying it's always good, just that a lot of the tone here sounds like "why trade a good player?"

[fendilim]

Right, and for the record, Fournier has been very bad this season.

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

True, but I think it was under Vaughn or was it under Vogel, when they figured out that SG wasn't best suited for Fournier because he wasn't quick enough.

[fendilim]

Yeah I agree with this... But to defend them I don't think they initially believed they would have a possibility of a playoff run until the team started off as well as they did combined with how bad the bottom of the Eastern Conference turned out to be.

I think the plan was to Tank/Develop and provide structure for the young guys while improving the value of the talent of roster so they could move them for better/younger pieces. Then they would have enough money during the off-season to throw money at a big name Free-agent/Potential based young players to grow with what they have.

Now I believe with the rise of Vucevic they're kind of second guessing that plan and probably trying to figure out a way if they could try to win now and potentially rebuild the team into a semi-contender in one to two seasons.

the one problem I have with comparing Bamba, Tobias and Dipo, is that the latter were showing SOMETHING. I agree that people gave up on them too soon but I don’t think it’s the same situation with Bamba.

I don’t think 20 year old players who’ve played basketball most of their lives are so raw that they can’t do ANYTHING in the NBA. Least of all guys picked 6th, with long arms who displayed translatable skills at the collegiate level. I’ve watched the NBA for over 30 years and the one constant is that most of the time you catch glimpses of what a young player will become within the first few games. I just don’t believe the hype And I don’t see anything special but I truly hope I’m wrong.

Yeah, you and Lead bring up some great points. Players do show some flashes of greatness in their first couple years. I think for me personally I see something in both where the physical tools for both are too sexy to ignore and giving up on them as a potential tandem so soon could be a mistake. They don't have to be stars but they can be very impactful on the defensive side of the ball. It is essentially a long game with these two anyway (No Pun intended) so we'll see what they semi become is 2-3 years together whether if they do/don't work out together.

Well, bsed on the interviews with Welman/ Hammond, they seem to be going to picking lengthy players, because they think it will be the next trend in the NBA. Especially with KD and the rise of Giannis, Davis and unicorns like Ben and Embiid.

I really don't think Isaac and Mamba are cornerstone pieces, but I do think they will at least have a solid career in the league. Isaac is getting there, while Bamba I think has shown flashes but a lot of his struggles are really because of his lack of strength.

[basketballRob]

Fournier has a PER at #31 at the SG slot. PER is hostile to this position (only 13 SGs have an "average" PER; Donovan Mitchell, is below average by PER).

But what does #31 mean? For me it means two things. One, this is where a bench player like Ross should be ranked. Two, this reflects Fournier transitioning from an inappropriate SF positioning back to his natural SG slot.

Fournier's transition has been slow, and it has been ugly. So: in conclusion, I agree Fournier has been bad (relative to expectation).


..

I was trying to think of another team that Fournier would start on and I couldn't think of one.

True, but I think it was under Vaughn or was it under Vogel, when they figured out that SG wasn't best suited for Fournier because he wasn't quick enough.

That's like Doncic in Dallas, his speed is guarding power forwards and Hezonja last season playing the power forward position.



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[BadMofoPimp]

I am amazed by the above comments.

The Magic needs more offense, so lets trade the two best offensive players ?!?!?!?!?

WIthout Vučević and Ross, the Magic would be nowhere.

I'm amazed by your obliviousness.

People are saying we F'd up the rebuild by focusing on defense and ignoring the offense. We need to trade Vuc and Ross to reboot the rebuild. And guess what, we already stuck in nowhere with them.

Some of us are sentient human beings that can think a few steps ahead in the long term. Not all Magic fans are brainless goldfish or knuckle-dragging cavemen who's brain can't go beyond 'eat', 'sleep' and 'f@@k'.

I’m amazed at the strategery on this board from time to time.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

I am amazed that fans here think they know more than the professionals running these teams. No team can be run like they are playing NBA2K. Trades and draft positions just don't magically happen like in video games. I am sure there are discussions with other teams all the time, constantly. The issue is most likely that no team wants to give up more than they are willing to take back regardless how fans rationalize ideas.