#6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[Jaivl]

It comes down to Thurmond vs. Ewing for me. As a man/post defender Thurmond has the edge, and I will go by my eye test and what his contemporaries said about his play. Thurmond was also a very good shot blocker for a good portion of his career, getting 12 blocks in a game that became the first time a player recorded an official NBA quad-double (Bill and Wilt probably did it but we have no official block numbers from their playing days). I consider Ewing to be the better team/help defender.

I turned to rebounding for an additional insight. Frog said something about Thurmond and Ewing's rebounding numbers to be about the same while citing the incompleteness of data for Thurmond, so I took it in a different direction.

Going by regular season numbers, Thurmond played 35881 minutes while gathering 14464 boards in those minutes. That comes out to about 0.405 of a rebound for every minute played. Ewing played 40594 minutes while gathering 11607 boards, which comes out to 0.285 of a rebound for every minute played. Rebounding splits appear to be about equal between offensive and defensive rebounds, so I would conclude that Thurmond simply gathered more rebounds, and thus more defensive rebounds over a similar time on the court than Ewing did.

I think it's close, but my vote goes to Nate Thurmond.

Did you adjust for rebound availability? Nate played in a faster paced era with lower efficiency percentages, there were appreciably more rebounds available. Not sure whether that's enough to erase Nate's edge, but looking at Rodman v. Wilt/Russell, that plus adjusting for Wilt/Russell playing bigger minutes was enough to erase a 7 or 8 rebound per game edge to the 60s stars and make the all-time rebound rate leaders (that I have checked) Rodman, then Russell, then Wilt and bring some other guys within reach of Wilt and Russell in a way that raw rebounds or rebounds per game don't come close to (there's also questions about team rebounds which were counted differently, etc.). There was a nice article pinned on the statistical analysis board by TrueLAFan looking at this question.

I did some quick numbers using Thurmond's last prime years (71-73, which we have data on). It's a rough adjustment based on Ewing's and late prime Thurmond's rebound%. FWIW Thurmond's late prime rb% is the same as prime Ewing's, and he was rebounding more when younger.

Rebounds per 75 poss Ewing 87-95 / Thurmond 65-73 adjusted (Thurmond unadjusted)

9.2 12.4 (13.2)
8.9 12.3 (13.1)
10.4 13.2 (14.1)
11.0 13.7 (14.7)
11.3 12.6 (13.4)
12.5 11.5 (12.3)
11.6 10.0 (10.7)
11.7 11.1 (11.9)
13.2 12.7 (13.6)

[WestGOAT]

Ben Wallace

[trex_8063]

Old Man Wilt gave Kareem all he could handle; prime Wilt would have beat down Kareem inside all game.

This statement would seem to be alluding to how Kareem’s offensive proficiency was limited by Wilt…..which is a total non-sequitur within the context of discussing Kareem’s defense. Wrt to Kareem’s defense on Wilt:


Against Kareem in the rs (17 games), Wilt averaged 16.3 ppg @ 56.0% FG% and 6.8 FTA, with 17.6 rpg and *3.7 apg (*available for 16 of their 17 meetings).
In the same years against the league, Wilt avg 16.7 ppg @ 61.3% FG% and 7.0 FTA, with 18.7 rpg and 4.2 apg.

In the playoffs against Kareem (11 games), Wilt averaged 15.9 ppg @ 47.8% FG% and 9.4 FTA, with 19.1 rpg and 2.7 apg.
In the same years against the league, Wilt avg 17.7 ppg @ 58.5% FG% and 7.3 FTA, with 18.7 rpg and 4.2 apg.

It seems like Kareem impeded Wilt more or less as much as Wilt impeded Kareem.

In a more broad sense (aside from mentioning only low post defense), Kareem over the 9-year span of ‘74-’82 averaged [per 100 possessions] 11.6 DRebs, 1.3 stl, 3.9 blk, and just 3.6 PF.
For reference, ‘86-’96 Hakeem avg 11.3 DRebs, 2.5 stl, 4.7 blk, 4.9 PF per 100.
‘90-’97 Robinson avg 11.0 DRebs, 2.2 stl, 4.8 blk, 4.0 PF per 100.
‘92-’01 Dikembe avg 12.4 DRebs, 0.7 stl, 5.0 blk, 4.6 PF per 100.

So his box-based defensive stats are relatively competitive with those already voted in. And this excludes his first four seasons (which, fwiw, included two All-D 2nd Team honors, two #1 defenses, and another #2 defense in the league).
Overall, Kareem had 5 All-D 1st honors and 6 All-D 2nd honors. Looking at games as late as ‘77, he looks REALLY mobile for someone his size, and pretty nice (especially for the era) on his pnr defense.
So…...

[SkyHookFTW]

Old Man Wilt gave Kareem all he could handle; prime Wilt would have beat down Kareem inside all game.

This statement would seem to be alluding to how Kareem’s offensive proficiency was limited by Wilt…..which is a total non-sequitur within the context of discussing Kareem’s defense. Wrt to Kareem’s defense on Wilt:


Against Kareem in the rs (17 games), Wilt averaged 16.3 ppg @ 56.0% FG% and 6.8 FTA, with 17.6 rpg and *3.7 apg (*available for 16 of their 17 meetings).
In the same years against the league, Wilt avg 16.7 ppg @ 61.3% FG% and 7.0 FTA, with 18.7 rpg and 4.2 apg.

In the playoffs against Kareem (11 games), Wilt averaged 15.9 ppg @ 47.8% FG% and 9.4 FTA, with 19.1 rpg and 2.7 apg.
In the same years against the league, Wilt avg 17.7 ppg @ 58.5% FG% and 7.3 FTA, with 18.7 rpg and 4.2 apg.

It seems like Kareem impeded Wilt more or less as much as Wilt impeded Kareem.

In a more broad sense (aside from mentioning only low post defense), Kareem over the 9-year span of ‘74-’82 averaged [per 100 possessions] 11.6 DRebs, 1.3 stl, 3.9 blk, and just 3.6 PF.
For reference, ‘86-’96 Hakeem avg 11.3 DRebs, 2.5 stl, 4.7 blk, 4.9 PF per 100.
‘90-’97 Robinson avg 11.0 DRebs, 2.2 stl, 4.8 blk, 4.0 PF per 100.
‘92-’01 Dikembe avg 12.4 DRebs, 0.7 stl, 5.0 blk, 4.6 PF per 100.

So his box-based defensive stats are relatively competitive with those already voted in. And this excludes his first four seasons (which, fwiw, included two All-D 2nd Team honors, two #1 defenses, and another #2 defense in the league).
Overall, Kareem had 5 All-D 1st honors and 6 All-D 2nd honors. Looking at games as late as ‘77, he looks REALLY mobile for someone his size, and pretty nice (especially for the era) on his pnr defense.
So…...

Yes, Kareem was very mobile for his size, and would probably translate well in this era. One note though about Kareem’s defense against Wilt is to remember that Wilt was passed his scoring prime and was more focused on playing defense his last few years—I don’t believe his defense would be as good against Wilt if this was Wilt from 62-67, as Wilt’s knee injury did cut down on some of his mobility. How many other 35-36 year old players could even think about challenging someone like Kareem? Moses put a whooping on Kareem so I’m confident that younger Wilt would too. This is no knock against Kareem as prime Wilt scored on everyone.

[trex_8063]

Speaking for myself, I'll be deciding between Ben Wallace, Nate Thurmond, and Patrick Ewing (who I believe should be getting serious consideration at this point). Also on the back-burner (likely close to where he should be getting some consideration, or at least discussion) is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

No Shawn Bradley?

[trex_8063]

I’m going to again post a limited number of comparisons by several aggregates, including various DVOR (defensive value over replacement) splits, as I had in prior threads. EDITS SINCE LAST TIME: have added Dwight Howard, added Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to the box and accolades sections, as well as some speculative estimates/comments regarding Wilt and Kareem for the DVOR sections.

NOTES (read please):
*For anyone new to this, DVOR is NOT to be confused with DVORP (derived from bbref’s VORP figures). DVOR utilizes (where ever possible) DRAPM [available for ‘97 and after] and minutes played, with “replacement level” being defined as -0.75.
**For ‘94-’96, we have another plus/minus metric available in the form of rs-only APM. This figure is used for those seasons, along with guidance by BPM to estimate the offense:defense splits on the APM number.
***For seasons prior to ‘94, in previous threads I’d been using shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact (EI) defensive splits. However, anyone following this close will know by now that the domain on that site expired, so it is no longer available. I had recorded the numbers for Bill Russell and Hakeem’s pre-’94 seasons before the site went down, so I have them.

But this will prevent me from including other “old-timers” such as Wilt or Thurmond in these comparisons.

****For the pre-’94 seasons of David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Patrick Ewing, and Alonzo Mourning, I simply used (0.75 * DBPM) as an estimate. I didn’t use the full DBPM value, as I feel that can sometimes overstate things (relative to a typical DRAPM). That might be marginally short-changing them for those years, so bear that in mind.

*****In DVOR per game in best 5 years, it might not be the same five years as in the cumulative avg.

******Where DPOY shares [and All-D pts, for that matter] are concerned, also bear in mind that Robinson, Mutombo, and Hakeem were often in direct competition with each other, probably dragging ALL of their figures down in those categories compared to Ben Wallace (we really didn’t have another great defensive C whose prime overlapped with Ben’s).

*******Used the following year-by-year DRAPM estimates for Wilt Chamberlain's career to speculate on DVOR scores:
2
1
1
0
3
0
2.75
3.25
3.25
0.25
0
0.5
3.25
3.25

********Used the following year-by-year DRAPM estimates (guidance by DBPM) for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career to speculate on DVOR scores:
2.5
2.5
2.5
2.5
2.7
1.65
3
2.25
2.7
2.9
2
1.05
1.1
0.2
0.3
1
0.6
0.3
0.1
-0.2

*********All shorter seasons (and associated metrics) have been pro-rated to 82-game schedule; figures do NOT include the '19 season for active players.


All-Defensive Honors “Points” (awarded 1.5 pts for each 1st team, 1.0 pts for each 2nd)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 13.5
Hakeem Olajuwon - 11.5
David Robinson - 10.0
Ben Wallace - 8.5
Dikembe Mutombo - 7.5
Dwight Howard - 7.0
Wilt Chamberlain - 3.0 (*only awarded his last 5 seasons)
Patrick Ewing - 3.0
Alonzo Mourning - 3.0
Bill Russell - 1.5 (*only awarded his final season)
Shawn Bradley - 0

DPOY Shares
Ben Wallace - 3.747
Dwight Howard - 3.242
Dikembe Mutombo - 2.146
Hakeem Olajuwon - 1.969
Alonzo Mourning - 1.334
David Robinson - 1.331
Patrick Ewing - 0.105
Shawn Bradley - 0
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 0 (*not awarded the first 13 seasons of Kareem's career)
**not awarded during the careers of Russell and Wilt

DWS
Bill Russell - 143.9
Hakeem Olajuwon - 96.6
Wilt Chamberlain - 95.7
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 94.5
Patrick Ewing - 83.4
David Robinson - 82.9
Ben Wallace - 72.3
Dikembe Mutombo - 71.2
Dwight Howard - 70.4
Alonzo Mourning - 50.5
Shawn Bradley - 32.2

DBPM
Ben Wallace: +5.5
David Robinson: +4.3
Hakeem Olajuwon: +3.8
Dikembe Mutombo: +3.6
Shawn Bradley: +3.4
Dwight Howard: +2.8
Patrick Ewing: +2.5
Alonzo Mourning: +2.3
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +2.0 (*not available for his first four seasons)
**not available for Russell or Wilt’s careers

Individual rDRTG
David Robinson: -10.0
Ben Wallace: -9.4
Hakeem Olajuwon: -8.6
Dwight Howard: -7.9
Patrick Ewing: -7.5
Dikembe Mutombo: -6.8
Alonzo Mourning: -5.7
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: -5.2 (*not available his first four seasons)
Shawn Bradley: -4.0
**not available for Russell or Wilt’s careers

Cumulative Career DVOR
Bill Russell - 181,196.05
Hakeem Olajuwon - 171,267.8
Dikembe Mutombo - 154.734.3
David Robinson - 151,777.8
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -141,937.6 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Patrick Ewing - 134,807.4
*Wilt Chamberlain - 123,779.0 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Ben Wallace - 108,273.3
Alonzo Mourning - 91,008.1
Dwight Howard - 82,724.5
Shawn Bradley - 70,643.0

Avg DVOR per Season (full career)
Bill Russell - 13,938.2
David Robinson - 10,841.2
Hakeem Olajuwon - 9,514.9
*Wilt Chamberlain - 8,841.4 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Dikembe Mutombo - 8,596.4
Patrick Ewing - 7,929.8
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 7,096.9 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Ben Wallace - 6,767.1
Alonzo Mourning - 6,107.9
Dwight Howard - 5,908.9
Shawn Bradley - 5,886.9

Avg DVOR per Season (Best 5 years)
Dikembe Mutombo - 18,417.6
Bill Russell - 16,994.7
Hakeem Olajuwon - 14,663.1
*Wilt Chamberlain - 14,494.95 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
David Robinson - 13,808.6
Alonzo Mourning - 12,185.9
Patrick Ewing - 12,052.4
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 11,913.0 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Ben Wallace - 11,727.7
Shawn Bradley - 9,933.7
Dwight Howard - 9,483.5

Avg DVOR Per Game (Best 5 years)
Dikembe Mutombo - 229.6
Bill Russell - 219.6
Hakeem Olajuwon - 184.2
*Wilt Chamberlain - 176.8 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
David Robinson - 176.4
Alonzo Mourning - 171.4
Patrick Ewing - 160.9
Ben Wallace - 150.4
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 146.7 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Shawn Bradley - 141.5
Dwight Howard - 129.8

[HurricaneKid]

We had the same failings at the other positions in regards to peak vs accumulations.

Ben Wallace had the best 5 year defensive stretch of any player outside of possibly Russell himself. He led the league in RAPM by immense margins with a negative ORAPM for years.

Its not JUST that he was by far the best defender in the league when he won 4 DPoY during a defensive renaissance over 5 years. Its the margins by which he was the best defensive player during this period.

That people are actually voting for the 3rd best defensive centers at their peak over probably the best defensive peak in the modern game is just mind blowing to me.

Its Ben Wallace and its not close.

[HeartBreakKid]

We had the same failings at the other positions in regards to peak vs accumulations.

Ben Wallace had the best 5 year defensive stretch of any player outside of possibly Russell himself. He led the league in RAPM by immense margins with a negative ORAPM for years.

Its not JUST that he was by far the best defender in the league when he won 4 DPoY during a defensive renaissance over 5 years. Its the margins by which he was the best defensive player during this period.

That people are actually voting for the 3rd best defensive centers at their peak over probably the best defensive peak in the modern game is just mind blowing to me.

Its Ben Wallace and its not close.

Gonna have to ditto. When you think about how much impact Ben Wallace had and was an all-star player despite being truly awful offensively, it is amazing. I mean again, the guy was AWFUL on offense, all these other players we're mentioning could do some things on offense at the very least.

My vote goes to Ben Wallace.

[Jaivl]

We had the same failings at the other positions in regards to peak vs accumulations.

Ben Wallace had the best 5 year defensive stretch of any player outside of possibly Russell himself. He led the league in RAPM by immense margins with a negative ORAPM for years.

Its not JUST that he was by far the best defender in the league when he won 4 DPoY during a defensive renaissance over 5 years. Its the margins by which he was the best defensive player during this period.

That people are actually voting for the 3rd best defensive centers at their peak over probably the best defensive peak in the modern game is just mind blowing to me.

Its Ben Wallace and its not close.

Engelmann's PI RAPM leaders:

07: Dikembe Mutombo (Wallace #24)
06: Ben Wallace (+0.05 advantage over second)
05: Jason Collins (Wallace #5)
04: Tim Duncan (Wallace #2)
03: Tim Duncan (Wallace #4)
02: Dikembe Mutombo (Wallace #14)
01 NPI: Shawn Bradley (Wallace #11)

Yeah... no. And Thurmond's snippets of impact numbers blow Wallace's out of the water so IDK what you're talking about.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I'm kinda low on the trees like Eaton and such. .

Eaton had a lot of impact. That one trick was very important in his era. I think it is OK to choose to consider or choose not consider how a player would hypothetically do in a different era. I do't think I would want Eaton defending picks at the 3 point line in the current NBA. In Eaton's NBA nobody could hit 3s while coming off a pick so the defensive center could hang back and defend the drive.

Eaton played in an era that had good half court offenses that did not utilize 3 point shooting much. Eras before Eaton relied more on the fast break and very early offense because they did not score efficiently in the half court. In a league of fast break offenses How much of a defensive liability would a center that did not run the floor we'll be? How much of a problem was Eaton's slow foot speed vs the Lakers fast break? I don't remember Eaton playing against the Norm Nixon Lakers that more heavily relied on the fast break. Mature Worthy did a lot of inside scoring and I think Eaton was useful as a help defender against mature Worthy.

By the 10th selection on the list I think I will be considering Eaton.

[pandrade83]

I've decided to change my vote to Nate Thurmond.
Ben Wallace Ewing & Jabbar will be my next choices.

Don't have time right now to elaborate but can if needed.

[trex_8063]

Ben Wallace had the best 5 year defensive stretch of any player outside of possibly Russell himself. He led the league in RAPM by immense margins with a negative ORAPM for years.

This is just flat false. Jaivl cited some NPI RAPM, and the same is true if looking at J.E.'s PI RAPM. Not only did he not lead the league in RAPM [ever], he usually was not even the league-leader in DRAPM. As far as I can tell, he led the league in DRAPM one year ('04), and not by "immense margins" (he was +4.6, Duncan was +4.3, Garnett +4.2, Sheed +3.5, etc).

[Jaivl]

Ben Wallace had the best 5 year defensive stretch of any player outside of possibly Russell himself. He led the league in RAPM by immense margins with a negative ORAPM for years.

This is just flat false. Jaivl cited some NPI RAPM, and the same is true if looking at J.E.'s PI RAPM. Not only did he not lead the league in RAPM [ever], he usually was not even the league-leader in DRAPM. As far as I can tell, he led the league in DRAPM one year ('04), and not by "immense margins" (he was +4.6, Duncan was +4.3, Garnett +4.2, Sheed +3.5, etc).

Ah I was talking about PI too, my bad.

[trex_8063]

I'm kinda low on the trees like Eaton and such. .

Easton had a lot of impact. That one trick was very important in his era. I think it is OK to choose to consider or choose not consider how a player would hypothetically do in a different era. I do't think I would want Eaton defending picks at the 3 point line in the current NBA. In Eaton's NBA nobody could hit 3s while coming off a pick so the defensive center could hang back and defend the drive.

Eaton played in an era that had good half court offenses that did not utilize 3 point shooting much. Eras before Eaton relied more on the fast break and very early offense because they did not score efficiently in the half court. In a league of fast break offenses How much of a defensive liability would a center that did not run the floor we'll be? How much of a problem was Eaton's slow foot speed vs the Lakers fast break? I don't remember Eaton playing against the Norm Nixon Lakers that more heavily relied on the fast break. Mature Worthy did a lot of inside scoring and I think Eaton was useful as a help defender against mature Worthy.

By the 10th selection on the list I think I will be considering Eaton.

Agree. I'll have to at least consider Eaton by ~#10. I don't think he'd be effective in today's league (can't defend well in space, too easy to mitigate what he's effective at by simply inserting a small-ball and/or outside-shooting big to draw him out of the paint), but today's trends [stretch-bigs and 3pt-oriented game] are relatively recent developments in basketball history.
Through much of the NBA's history, someone like Eaton would have been a defensive beast (like he was in the 80's). Even in the faster paced 60's, I think he'd have been fairly effective defensively. Transition D would be lacking, but otherwise he'd have been devastating in the halfcourt D of that time.

[trex_8063]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For those who woul like to study Thurmond defense more, here are all games I found with him as a center (so not counting 1964 Finals).

For those who don't have enough time to watch, I've made a video with Thurmond and Cowens and there is some defense included here:

Watch on YouTube

fwiw, Thurmond doesn't play in the first clip above (nor does he appear in the "Part 2" segment of that game from the same channel).
I'd previously watched some of the other clips above (realized as I re-watched some of them the other day); don't think I've watched the bottom two, though. Was mostly re-watching the Bulls/Warriors series above.

Granted, this is mostly late [post-prime] Thurmond, but some things I'm noticing....

*I take his rep as the best low-post defender as a given [based on H2H data], but there's not much opportunity to scrutinize it here, as GS just didn't have low-post threats (Clifford Ray and George Johnson).
**He does appear to box out.
***He's VERY active contesting shots (whether it's on his man, or stepping out to contest another player who's curled around a screen set by his man). Not blocking many in the sample I've watched so far, but contesting/changing shots like a champ.
****His open-court mobility looks pretty decent (particularly for his age: 34 at this point, I believe).

[trex_8063]

I think it's down to Thurmond and Ewing for this spot, with Wallace next after those two. I was initially ready to vote Thurmond here earlier, but Trex made a valid point that I may have been giving Thurmond too much credit relative to the other candidates based on available data. I think Thurmond was a slightly better man to man defender (in fact, the great centers of that era's averages against Thurmond is probably his biggest selling point), but Ewing was a significantly better team defender. Ewing anchored an elite defense for about a decade, and in 92-93 and 93-94, the Knicks ran out one of the best defenses in the history of the league.

And the crazy thing is, you see barely any credit parsed out in terms of DPOY shares for those two years:
'93 - Ewing, Oakley, and Starks each get minimal consideration with 0.010 DPOY shares.
'94 - Oakley gets a fairly minimal 0.020 shares, NO OTHER KNICK GETS ANY.

And these are two of the best team defenses the game has ever seen!


I was just re-watching part of G5 of the '94 Knicks/Pacers series, as well as some of G6 of the '04 Pistons/Pacers series.....tiny sample size as I only got around to watching part of each game, but I came away marginally more impressed with Patrick Ewing than I did Ben Wallace. Ewing is so active out there, doing so many good things defensively.
idk, just putting that out there. Thinking of casting in with Ewing here, actually.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #36:

Nate Thurmond - 7 (Jaivl, penbeast0, bledredwine, SkyHookFTW, Samurai, cecilthesheep, pandrade83)
Ben Wallace - 3 (WestGOAT, HurricaneKid, HeartBreakKid)
Patrick Ewing - 2 (KnickFan33, FrogBros4Life)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 1 (kendogg)

Two or three guys (including me) who've indicated how they MIGHT vote, but haven't placed one yet. Looks like it's gonna go to Thurmond, though. Will likely wrap this one up in a few hours.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Thurmond

[trex_8063]

Well, I guess I'll make it official and cast a vote for Patrick Ewing, though I'd have been content with either Thurmond or Wallace in this spot. That still leaves the total at:

8 for Nate Thurmond
3 each for Ewing and Big Ben
1 for Kareem

May as well call it for Thurmond, and we'll move on.

[trex_8063]

.

Granted, this is mostly late [post-prime] Thurmond, but some things I'm noticing....

*I take his rep as the best low-post defender as a given [based on H2H data], but there's not much opportunity to scrutinize it here, as GS just didn't have low-post threats (Clifford Ray and George Johnson).
**He does appear to box out.
***He's VERY active contesting shots (whether it's on his man, or stepping out to contest another player who's curled around a screen set by his man). Not blocking many in the sample I've watched so far, but contesting/changing shots like a champ.
****His open-court mobility looks pretty decent (particularly for his age: 34 at this point, I believe).

I forgot: the one criticism I had in watching some of those clips is that he's typically got his hands dangling down around his hips, especially when he's defending off-ball (he's not alone in this; Ben Wallace is typically the same). This means that in contesting a shot (which again: he's very active about), he has to swing those arms up (which takes a fraction of a second longer than if he'd had an arm raised or extended at shoulder-level already--->"hand down, man down"); it also means he's taking up less space in the passing lanes than he would if he extends his arms out at shoulder level.

Having the arms extended is something you can see Bill Walton, for example, doing fairly regularly on defense. Rudy Gobert can frequently be seen doing it, too. It eliminates some of the passing angles that might otherwise exist.