2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[Jadoogar]

The Ringer posted quite a good article about the comps for current rookies based on statistical production and profiles.

Please read the article instead of just looking at the comps. The article mentions that Luka had the lowest similarity score than anyone so don't freak out just looking at his comps.

I'd be interested to see this again at the end of the season.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/8/18173374/nba-rookie-comps-lottery-luka-doncic-deandre-ayton

[Johnny Firpo]

It's fair to be critical of RC and certainly to not be enarmored with the team around Doncic. But some of Luka's fans are really embarrassing themselves with some of these extreme posts. And I say that as someone who has Doncic in his top 3 favorite players already.

His unwillingness to tweak the lineup is mind-boggling though. It is literally - by far - the worst 5-man lineup in the NBA. That would totally be okay if it did not field two veterans on expiring/two-year contracts. I am already shivering in fear that they want to re-sign Matthews and Barnes. In my opinion that would be one of the worst things you could do if you have Luka. And yeah, of course having him is a factor. We - likely - found our franchise player, which means you have to build a team around his abilities. Now granted, they haven't re-signed those two, so don't condone them for it just yet, but RC's current stubbornness is certainly not a good sign.

[LukaV]

It's fair to be critical of RC and certainly to not be enarmored with the team around Doncic. But some of Luka's fans are really embarrassing themselves with some of these extreme posts. And I say that as someone who has Doncic in his top 3 favorite players already.

His unwillingness to tweak the lineup is mind-boggling though. It is literally - by far - the worst 5-man lineup in the NBA. That would totally be okay if it did not field two veterans on expiring/two-year contracts. I am already shivering in fear that they want to re-sign Matthews and Barnes. In my opinion that would be one of the worst things you could do if you have Luka. And yeah, of course having him is a factor. We - likely - found our franchise player, which means you have to build a team around his abilities. Now granted, they haven't re-signed those two, so don't condone them for it just yet, but RC's current stubbornness is certainly not a good sign.

Agreed.

I've been rooting for the Mavs since around year 2010, so I'm not simply a "Luka fan" or "Luka stan", but I too have been frustrated this season by Carlisle. For example by his apparent (emphasis on apparent, as we do not know what's going behind the scenes) stubbornness when it comes to the starting lineup, his apparent favouritism of older players vs. rookies/not-so-established players (Brunson, Kleber, DFS, Broekhoff), his hockey subs, his rigid rotations, his lack of holding (certain) veteran players accountable (for example when it comes to DJ's "point center" & Wes's "Kobe" role-playing). He's a tremendous coach, but that doesn't make he doesn't make mistakes (certain ones often) and that some of his decisions/approaches aren't questionable.

And I really really really hope the Mavs don't re-sign Wes, DJ and Barnes, unless it's for a significantly lower salary with the understanding that they aren't unbenchable/untradeable should they not give a 100% and adapt to their role in the team.

[Dirk]

not sure if any1 saw that laker mav game. it was literally Luka 1 v 5 in the 2nd half. Matthews is so bad now, it's sad. Barnes has been hit or miss most of the season. he was a miss tonight

Lmao it really was 1v5. Mavs would have like 5 wins if it wasn't for Luka this season.

If you watch the Mavs play, how can you say that?

The bench played a pivotal role in several of their wins. Namely a guy named JJ Barea when he had a very hot run.

It's bizarre how people can have such outlandish takes that are simply false. I only quoted you now because I have noticed that it's not the first time you say it.

And yeah, we get it, for some, everything in Dallas is trash. It may be trash, but it's completely ridiculous to say that the Mavs would have 5 wins without Doncic --- who has been great and very consistent.

Hard to believe that people can't see how their tribalism alienates other people.

[Archx]

not sure if any1 saw that laker mav game. it was literally Luka 1 v 5 in the 2nd half. Matthews is so bad now, it's sad. Barnes has been hit or miss most of the season. he was a miss tonight

Lmao it really was 1v5. Mavs would have like 5 wins if it wasn't for Luka this season.

If you watch the Mavs play, how can you say that?

The bench played a pivotal role in several of their wins. Namely a guy named JJ Barea when he had a very hot run.

It's bizarre how people can have such outlandish takes that are simply false. I only quoted you now because I have noticed that it's not the first time you say it.

And yeah, we get it, for some, everything in Dallas is trash. It may be trash, but it's completely ridiculous to say that the Mavs would have 5 wins without Doncic --- who has been great and very consistent.

Hard to believe that people can't see how their tribalism alienates other people.

Was being half sarcastic, chill dude. And he did save them a lot of times, he is the 3rd best clutch NBA player by efficiency for a reason.

[VCfor3]

Appreciate the article Jadoogar. I found the part about JJJ having a top 15 contested rebounding rate interesting. (https://stats.nba.com/players/rebounding/?sort=REB_CONTEST_PCT&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) Watching him it feels like he just doesn't try for rebounds as often as he should. He kinda ball watches as he starts heading to the other side of the court. If someone can get him to be a bit more aggressive, maybe rebounding won't be quite as glaring a weakness as it currently is.

[Sixersftw]

Landry Shamet is kinda going bonkers. 8 3pters and 29 points to start the 4th.

[King Ken]

Trae was good today. Got a little shot happy in the 3rd but was impactful for most of the game and his defense was solid.

[King Ken]

not sure if any1 saw that laker mav game. it was literally Luka 1 v 5 in the 2nd half. Matthews is so bad now, it's sad. Barnes has been hit or miss most of the season. he was a miss tonight

Lmao it really was 1v5. Mavs would have like 5 wins if it wasn't for Luka this season.

If you watch the Mavs play, how can you say that?

The bench played a pivotal role in several of their wins. Namely a guy named JJ Barea when he had a very hot run.

It's bizarre how people can have such outlandish takes that are simply false. I only quoted you now because I have noticed that it's not the first time you say it.

And yeah, we get it, for some, everything in Dallas is trash. It may be trash, but it's completely ridiculous to say that the Mavs would have 5 wins without Doncic --- who has been great and very consistent.

Hard to believe that people can't see how their tribalism alienates other people.

I always have to remember, we have Mavs fans who have always been quality and of course Luka stans. They are NOT the same.

[Archx]

Lmao it really was 1v5. Mavs would have like 5 wins if it wasn't for Luka this season.

If you watch the Mavs play, how can you say that?

The bench played a pivotal role in several of their wins. Namely a guy named JJ Barea when he had a very hot run.

It's bizarre how people can have such outlandish takes that are simply false. I only quoted you now because I have noticed that it's not the first time you say it.

And yeah, we get it, for some, everything in Dallas is trash. It may be trash, but it's completely ridiculous to say that the Mavs would have 5 wins without Doncic --- who has been great and very consistent.

Hard to believe that people can't see how their tribalism alienates other people.

I always have to remember, we have Mavs fans who have always been quality and of course Luka stans. They are NOT the same.

Just like we had mavs fans who were **** on Luka before the draft like most americans.
I mean we can play this game both ways. Some people look into it way too much and get easily offended even if intentions ultimately are good.

[Bob8]

Lmao it really was 1v5. Mavs would have like 5 wins if it wasn't for Luka this season.

If you watch the Mavs play, how can you say that?

The bench played a pivotal role in several of their wins. Namely a guy named JJ Barea when he had a very hot run.

It's bizarre how people can have such outlandish takes that are simply false. I only quoted you now because I have noticed that it's not the first time you say it.

And yeah, we get it, for some, everything in Dallas is trash. It may be trash, but it's completely ridiculous to say that the Mavs would have 5 wins without Doncic --- who has been great and very consistent.

Hard to believe that people can't see how their tribalism alienates other people.

I always have to remember, we have Mavs fans who have always been quality and of course Luka stans. They are NOT the same.

...and there are mirrors too.

[Dirk]

I always have to remember, we have Mavs fans who have always been quality and of course Luka stans. They are NOT the same.

King Ken, what you have to remember is this:

We have many Luka fans who are good users and level headed. I know this from the Mavs forum where I see very productive contributors. Plus, it is very easy to be a Luka stan. His game is incredibly easy on the eye.

The "Luka stans" line should not be freely used.

If someone is derailing the discussion or baiting, people should hit the report button. I know the year will be 2029, Luka probably on top of the world and some people will still bring up "the Americans who didn't like Luka" or will still will be tearing everyone down to prop up their idol. It is a very small minority.

We are all guilty of at times letting what one or two users write and then generalising, identifying everyone with a group and then attacking said group. But that is completely wrong.

Luka's game does his own defense for him. He is one of the few players who doesn't need anyone with a defensive mentality protect him from critics. The All Star voting tells it's own story about how much people like him. He doesn't need any tearing down of other rookies picked ahead of him. He doesn't need all that obsessive negativity of his teammates, coaches and he certainly doesn't need any absurd takes on what his impact actually is.

He'll have his bad moments, he'll always be under scrutiny given all the attention he receives and the subject of attacks when he finally hits a bad patch, but ultimately I doubt many doubt that he'll be good and around for a long time, so there really is no need to push him down anyone's throats. His talent shines through effortlessly.

[Johnny Firpo]

Anyone who uses the phrase "Luka stans" has a bias against the kid, and is looking for posts to justify their own negative feeling towards him. It's much healthier if you admit it that you are simply a hater. It's okay to be a hater, just wear it, and don't insult other people's intelligence by referring to a mythical group called "Luka stans", when every single player has those kind of fans. And yet you don't whine about all of those players and their "stans", wonder why.

[e_l_f_o]

Anyone who uses the phrase "Luka stans" has a bias against the kid, and is looking for posts to justify their own negative feeling towards him. It's much healthier if you admit it that you are simply a hater. It's okay to be a hater, just wear it, and don't insult other people's intelligence by referring to a mythical group called "Luka stans", when every single player has those kind of fans. And yet you don't whine about all of those players and their "stans", wonder why.

I agree but really there are some posts which are simply just waaay too much.
I’m a Real Madrid supporter and have been watching Luka live since his debut as a teenager so I’m really high on him and a big big fan, but some “Luka fans” go way too far disrespecting other rookies and/or teammates or fans of other rookies just to praise him.

[Jadoogar]

Trae was good today. Got a little shot happy in the 3rd but was impactful for most of the game and his defense was solid.

I finally got to watch him play. Really like his ability to drive and make the right pass. His dribble penetration was partly the reason the game was so close.

[Archx]

Anyone who uses the phrase "Luka stans" has a bias against the kid, and is looking for posts to justify their own negative feeling towards him. It's much healthier if you admit it that you are simply a hater. It's okay to be a hater, just wear it, and don't insult other people's intelligence by referring to a mythical group called "Luka stans", when every single player has those kind of fans. And yet you don't whine about all of those players and their "stans", wonder why.

Good post. And god forbid you joke about how good someone plays, people act like it's the end of the world. If someone really likes his player, deal with it or don't read if you're troubled by it.

But i do also agree that talking down other rookies is simply not fair. Productive discussions are fine but simply hating for no reason is a bit premature at this point. We don't know how any of them will be in 3-4 years.

[Kabookalu]

Trae was good today. Got a little shot happy in the 3rd but was impactful for most of the game and his defense was solid.

His IQ and ability to shake off his opponents to get where he wants to is already elite. The fact that the Raptors put Kawhi Leonard on him for the final possession says a lot. What he needs to work on is his finishing ability around the rim. He was 3/7 from shots within 5ft.

With the looks he was getting he should have been 5/7 or 6/7. For the season he's shooting around .500 from within 5ft, and that just won't cut it. It's impeding his playmaking ability too.

Honestly if he was a .640% finisher like Curry, he'd be competing with Luka for ROY even with his 3 point shooting the way it is now. He was working both Lowry and VanVleet, two great PG defenders, just that his lack of finishing erased all good will most of the time.

[kg01]

Anyone who uses the phrase "Luka stans" has a bias against the kid, and is looking for posts to justify their own negative feeling towards him. It's much healthier if you admit it that you are simply a hater. It's okay to be a hater, just wear it, and don't insult other people's intelligence by referring to a mythical group called "Luka stans", when every single player has those kind of fans. And yet you don't whine about all of those players and their "stans", wonder why.

That's not necessarily true.

We've been dealing with Doncic and Lin stans all year on the Hawks board but we generally enjoy both players.

[kg01]

Trae was good today. Got a little shot happy in the 3rd but was impactful for most of the game and his defense was solid.

His IQ and ability to shake off his opponents to get where he wants to is already elite. The fact that the Raptors put Kawhi Leonard on him for the final possession says a lot. What he needs to work on is his finishing ability around the rim. He was 3/7 from shots within 5ft.

With the looks he was getting he should have been 5/7 or 6/7. For the season he's shooting around .500 from within 5ft, and that just won't cut it. It's impeding his playmaking ability too.

Honestly if he was a .640% finisher like Curry, he'd be competing with Luka for ROY even with his 3 point shooting the way it is now. He was working both Lowry and VanVleet, two great PG defenders, just that his lack of finishing erased all good will most of the time.

I tend to agree with pretty much all this. As they've gotten his shot selection under control, he and the team have benefited mightily.

I'm not overly concerned with his finishing (yet) as I assume/hope it improves as he gets stronger. I actually expected it to be worse considering how slight he is.

That last play vs Kawhii was simply a rookie mistake going against the best on-ball defender in the league. As our coach suggested, he took the bait and apparently went away from the called play. Leonard was licking his chops the whole time.

[Young gun 6]

Anyone who uses the phrase "Luka stans" has a bias against the kid, and is looking for posts to justify their own negative feeling towards him. It's much healthier if you admit it that you are simply a hater. It's okay to be a hater, just wear it, and don't insult other people's intelligence by referring to a mythical group called "Luka stans", when every single player has those kind of fans. And yet you don't whine about all of those players and their "stans", wonder why.

I agree but really there are some posts which are simply just waaay too much.
I’m a Real Madrid supporter and have been watching Luka live since his debut as a teenager so I’m really high on him and a big big fan, but some “Luka fans” go way too far disrespecting other rookies and/or teammates or fans of other rookies just to praise him.

This to a tee, the kid is a star but there are quite a few posters that won’t allow other rookies to get the limelight or try to bring them down or say they are nowhere near Doncic’s level etc when he isn’t even been talked about.

The posters who bring Doncic into a reply or post about other rookies in this thread without him being even mentioned at that point are the ones who are looking to derail the thread and the Luka ‘stans’ that people try to ignore/lose any respect for their opinions.