2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[gh123]

As a social worker and a dog trainer, a would like to note one extremely overlooked thing: Luka is into basketball since before he walked... That is even more important than him playing professionally since 16 or something... If anybody is interested and don't already know, u can read articles about Polgar sisters and their father on the net, to get a clearer picture... This said, Luka will not hit any wall
Question is, how many babies will be named Luka this year?

Luka probably hit "the wall" when he was 16-17, so I don't really expect it from him.

I don't know about babies, but my wife is a fan of Dybala (plays for Juve, I watch tons of their games too) and I showed her Luka the other day and she said he's cute, but Dybala is much better looking and will look better when they grow up. Made me sad, coz I'm way more into NBA, than football

[Colbinii]

Playing with Embiid or DJ is not negligible...

Advance Stats of Simmons (Rookie season)
Simmons (with Embiid) => NetRtg= +6.7, USG%= 22.5, TS%= 55.8, AST%= 36.2, FTR%= 0.341, PTS_36m= 16.9
Simmons (without Embiid) => NetRtg= -2.0, USG%= 25.2, TS%= 51.6, AST%= 38.3, FTR%= 0.267, PTS_36m= 17.3

Doncic (with DJ) => NetRtg= +0.4, USG%= 28.0, TS%= 56.4, AST%= 25.4, FTR%= 0.408, PTS_36m= 22.3
Doncic (without DJ) => NetRtg= +3.7, USG%= 29.0, TS%= 54.3, AST%= 18.3, FTR%= 0.679, PTS_36m= 24.4

It isn't, but it is certainly a bright spot for Simmons that he can play with a dominant inside presence and have more of an impact given he doesn't have any jump shot to speak of. I am always confused when people show stats of a star [Simmons] playing with another star [Embiid] and having better stats. Is it a bad thing that stars can co-exist?

You also realize I am not saying and have never said that Simmons is better than Doncic. I was replying to a claim that Doncic is "easily" better than Simmons and Mitchell, which I find to be incorrect. Is Doncic better? In all likelihood, yes. But, to say he is easily better [and thus a tier above him as a rookie] is simply incorrect.

This isn’t really cherry picked, this a current streak he is on. Others have Adressed the stats, I might give you Simmons because of defense but Luka is better offensively Than both, and yes he is easily better than Mitchell

I understand that he is on this streak, but I also posted similar streaks by the 2 ROY candidates from 2018.

I don't think you [or what seems to be anyone in this thread] is understanding what I am saying and you guys are all getting emotional because someone disagrees with you. You said that Doncic is "easily" better, and no, I am not paraphrasing. I don't think you can say Doncic is "easily" better because statistically and impact wise, he is not "easily" better than Simmons or Mitchell as rookies.

How is he easily better than Mitchell? Their stats are similar. A 4.47 SRS team was playing better basketball with a 21 year old player than without him. What exactly makes Doncic "clearly better" [or easily, as you use] to a guy who has both similar stats and arguably more impact on a better team?

[Archx]

Erm the goal of basketball is to win games. For any individual, the ultimate way to measure yourself is “how many games has your team won and how big is your role within that team?”

Doncic team is second last. Yes you read that correct - second last in the west. To suggest he’s having a better rookie year than the top 3 guys last year - especially the top 2 insofar as regular season is concerned - is absurd. If Doncic’s stats belonged to a black guy from California who went through the NCAA and entered after his freshman year, there’s no way he gets close to all this love.

Do you make a bet that:

Rubio
Doncic
Ingles
Favors
Gobert


wins more games of:

DSJ
Mitchell
Matthews
Barnes
DJ

I usually don’t deal in fanciful hypotheticals especially as the rest of the “rosters” aren’t shown. But I’ll bite and say that probably if you straight swapped them at the season’s start, the Jazz would probably win more. Is that what you wanted me to say?

But doesn't your statement that hypothetical Jazz roster would win more games than the Mavs one, completely erase your own notion that looking at rosters doesn't matter? Which you pointed out in your own post above this one.
I am just asking because you are contradicting yourself here. It's basically like Dirk said, the entire roster does matter A LOT. And fact of the matter is, Mavs don't have a good enough roster to be up there with the best.

Then you also said: "I do find it reasonably weird that Doncic is getting all this attention and I think 60% of it is because he’s a white European. He’s also a really good rookie." .... And you basically answered your own question in the 2nd sentence. He is a really good rookie who people thought will never be able to play in the NBA. That's why he is getting a ton of attention. Not because he is white...

[Duke4life831]

Bagley with a very Bagley type of game last night.

10/7/1 on 4-5 shooting with 2 steals in just 20 minutes of play.

I think it's clear as day he is going to be a scoring machine in his career. He only has a few moves at the monument, but with his combination of size/energy/athleticism/touch, he is already able to put up pretty damn good efficiency numbers.

Defensively he isn't near the horrific defender people feared. Ya he makes dumb errors defensively like most rookies do. But he has shown effort and versatility on that end.

[Baarignani]

Since Dec 12 (16 games) Luka is averaging 22.9 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists on 58 TS% and 2.9 turnovers. He’s completely creating this himself.

Don’t think Some peeople appreciate how absurd Lukas play is. Easily better than Simmons, Tatum or Mitchell’s rookie seasons.

Erm the goal of basketball is to win games. For any individual, the ultimate way to measure yourself is “how many games has your team won and how big is your role within that team?”

Doncic team is second last. Yes you read that correct - second last in the west. To suggest he’s having a better rookie year than the top 3 guys last year - especially the top 2 insofar as regular season is concerned - is absurd. If Doncic’s stats belonged to a black guy from California who went through the NCAA and entered after his freshman year, there’s no way he gets close to all this love.

I agree. Anthony Davis has also played awful because his team is near the bottom. Individual play means nothing.

[leolozon]

Since Dec 12 (16 games) Luka is averaging 22.9 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists on 58 TS% and 2.9 turnovers. He’s completely creating this himself.

Don’t think Some peeople appreciate how absurd Lukas play is. Easily better than Simmons, Tatum or Mitchell’s rookie seasons.

Erm the goal of basketball is to win games. For any individual, the ultimate way to measure yourself is “how many games has your team won and how big is your role within that team?”

Doncic team is second last. Yes you read that correct - second last in the west. To suggest he’s having a better rookie year than the top 3 guys last year - especially the top 2 insofar as regular season is concerned - is absurd. If Doncic’s stats belonged to a black guy from California who went through the NCAA and entered after his freshman year, there’s no way he gets close to all this love.

I agree. Anthony Davis has also played awful because his team is near the bottom. Individual play means nothing.

Yeah, there's about 18 guys better than Davis, Lebron isn't a top 10 player and Oladipo is the 5th or 6th best player in the league. Thanks Jazztop for your great analysis.

[ATLHoops97]

Kevin Huerter with a huge game tonight finishing with 29 points. Really starting to gain confidence and it is showing with his play as of late. Hawks strike gold with the 19th pick two years in a row!

[nikster]

Since Dec 12 (16 games) Luka is averaging 22.9 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists on 58 TS% and 2.9 turnovers. He’s completely creating this himself.

Don’t think Some people appreciate how absurd Lukas play is. Easily better than Simmons, Tatum or Mitchell’s rookie seasons.

Erm the goal of basketball is to win games. For any individual, the ultimate way to measure yourself is “how many games has your team won and how big is your role within that team?”

Doncic team is second last. Yes you read that correct - second last in the west. To suggest he’s having a better rookie year than the top 3 guys last year - especially the top 2 insofar as regular season is concerned - is absurd. If Doncic’s stats belonged to a black guy from California who went through the NCAA and entered after his freshman year, there’s no way he gets close to all this love.

What a lazy way to judge any player, let alone a rookie. I guess by that half-assed reasoning Luka is on a similar level to Anthony Davis this year.

Mavs are second last in the west but only 3.5 games out of the playoffs. More importantly, Those Jazz, 76ers and Celtics were better at literally every other position vs the Mavs starting lineup.

[bondom34]

Read on Twitter

^^^

[nikster]

Playing with Embiid or DJ is not negligible...

Advance Stats of Simmons (Rookie season)
Simmons (with Embiid) => NetRtg= +6.7, USG%= 22.5, TS%= 55.8, AST%= 36.2, FTR%= 0.341, PTS_36m= 16.9
Simmons (without Embiid) => NetRtg= -2.0, USG%= 25.2, TS%= 51.6, AST%= 38.3, FTR%= 0.267, PTS_36m= 17.3

Doncic (with DJ) => NetRtg= +0.4, USG%= 28.0, TS%= 56.4, AST%= 25.4, FTR%= 0.408, PTS_36m= 22.3
Doncic (without DJ) => NetRtg= +3.7, USG%= 29.0, TS%= 54.3, AST%= 18.3, FTR%= 0.679, PTS_36m= 24.4

It isn't, but it is certainly a bright spot for Simmons that he can play with a dominant inside presence and have more of an impact given he doesn't have any jump shot to speak of. I am always confused when people show stats of a star [Simmons] playing with another star [Embiid] and having better stats. Is it a bad thing that stars can co-exist?

You also realize I am not saying and have never said that Simmons is better than Doncic. I was replying to a claim that Doncic is "easily" better than Simmons and Mitchell, which I find to be incorrect. Is Doncic better? In all likelihood, yes. But, to say he is easily better [and thus a tier above him as a rookie] is simply incorrect.

This isn’t really cherry picked, this a current streak he is on. Others have Adressed the stats, I might give you Simmons because of defense but Luka is better offensively Than both, and yes he is easily better than Mitchell

I understand that he is on this streak, but I also posted similar streaks by the 2 ROY candidates from 2018.

I don't think you [or what seems to be anyone in this thread] is understanding what I am saying and you guys are all getting emotional because someone disagrees with you. You said that Doncic is "easily" better, and no, I am not paraphrasing. I don't think you can say Doncic is "easily" better because statistically and impact wise, he is not "easily" better than Simmons or Mitchell as rookies.

How is he easily better than Mitchell? Their stats are similar. A 4.47 SRS team was playing better basketball with a 21 year old player than without him. What exactly makes Doncic "clearly better" [or easily, as you use] to a guy who has both similar stats and arguably more impact on a better team?

Because the thing Mitchell does best (scoring) Luka is more efficient while being a significantly better playmaker. I probably take Luka over Mitchell defensively too because of his rebounding and size/strength.

Plus context matters with team record and advanced stats. Put Luka in that team and he would also make that team better, because both he and Mitchell fill the same void the Jazz have been desperately lacking: shot creators. Put Luka on the best defensive team in the league, and start him with the best rim protector in the league and his advanced and on/off stats look just as good.

I’ll give you he is not easily better than Simmons.

[King Ken]

Luka is a bad mother******

[leolozon]

Doncic still got it in the clutch, 7 straight points in the clutch. 29/12/8/2 with only 1 TO

He had so many close call on triple-doubles though. Could only get 1 rebound in the 2nd half. In a couple of days, he's going to be too old to get the record for youngest with a triple-double.

Now the question is. At what point is he good enough for the all-star team% He's been playing like a top 30 player in the league lately. For the year, he's basically top 40.

[HotRocks34]

The race is long, long over now.

The only race remaining is "how good will Doncic be if he stays healthy and motivated?"

I've said previously I think he will be a Hall Of Famer if he has a long career and good health. But there doesn't really seem to be any ceiling currently, except maybe "wont be GOAT, I don't think."

He's sick.

[Oscar9992]

Luka Doncic played aweful in defence, but carried Mavs' offense... He is clutch too.

Watch on YouTube

[Ascrilas]

Doncic still got it in the clutch, 7 straight points in the clutch. 29/12/8/2 with only 1 TO

He had so many close call on triple-doubles though. Could only get 1 rebound in the 2nd half. In a couple of days, he's going to be too old to get the record for youngest with a triple-double.

Now the question is. At what point is he good enough for the all-star team% He's been playing like a top 30 player in the league lately. For the year, he's basically top 40.

He can't get the triple-double record. He is exactly as old as Fultz when he got his right on this day.

But well, he'll console himself with a HoF-career.

Also, Luka will be an all-star. Don't think Silver will pass on him.

[King Ken]

Luka is just extremely skilled. Words really can't describe it. He just can get to any spot on skill. His offense is a lot like Pistol Pete. Skill for days. Pistol was the most skilled Basketball player I've ever seen. I used to watch his tapes and just study him. Luka is that skilled. He is the only player I've seen like Pistol. I don't even think Bird was this skilled. If he played in the NCAA's, he would average 40 a game like Pistol. Zone defense ain't stopping what he does. Dallas got one player I like long term around him in Barnes. Everyone else gotta go long term. Dallas gotta figure it out. It will be tough but that dude is worth it.

[spacemonkey]

One thing I'm more and more impressed with is not just that Luka is clutch, it's that he really seems to enjoy the crunchtime moments. It's kind of incredible. So few other players want that big shot.

[Jazztop]

Erm the goal of basketball is to win games. For any individual, the ultimate way to measure yourself is “how many games has your team won and how big is your role within that team?”

Doncic team is second last. Yes you read that correct - second last in the west. To suggest he’s having a better rookie year than the top 3 guys last year - especially the top 2 insofar as regular season is concerned - is absurd. If Doncic’s stats belonged to a black guy from California who went through the NCAA and entered after his freshman year, there’s no way he gets close to all this love.

I agree. Anthony Davis has also played awful because his team is near the bottom. Individual play means nothing.

Yeah, there's about 18 guys better than Davis, Lebron isn't a top 10 player and Oladipo is the 5th or 6th best player in the league. Thanks Jazztop for your great analysis.

How disingenuous of a distortion but I expect nothing less.

I stand by my point that great players and individual accolades have a lot to do with win totals.

[leolozon]

Doncic still got it in the clutch, 7 straight points in the clutch. 29/12/8/2 with only 1 TO

He had so many close call on triple-doubles though. Could only get 1 rebound in the 2nd half. In a couple of days, he's going to be too old to get the record for youngest with a triple-double.

Now the question is. At what point is he good enough for the all-star team% He's been playing like a top 30 player in the league lately. For the year, he's basically top 40.

He can't get the triple-double record. He is exactly as old as Fultz when he got his right on this day.

But well, he'll console himself with a HoF-career.

Also, Luka will be an all-star. Don't think Silver will pass on him.

Oh well. I had mid-January in mind.

It's kind of funny that Fultz has a NBA record though.

[rapstarter]

NBA ROY, All-star, and incredible Euro career. He's already not too far from HOF.