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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#781 » by King Ken » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:35 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Right now, I feel like we need to move on from wall no matter what. I hope we make something happen .


The problem is his contract is virtually untradable. How do you move that contract w/o having to include a key piece or pieces you don't want to give away? The answer is, you probably can't, unless something like an idiot vet who has GM-like powers like a LeBron wants him, and forces a franchise that feels it has no choice but to make a stupid deal. LeBron did that repeatedly in Cleveland, Melo got New York to sell its idiotic soul rather than wait a year and keep its assets a half decade+ ago, it happens, but its really, really rare and you need a really, really stupid franchise/f.o. and generally, that describes us, not our typical trading partners. We are the prototypical poker player looking to the right and left and not seeing the sucker, and failing to realize, we, of course, are the sucker.


btw: I'd dance a happy jig for days if we somehow unloaded Wall and that contract w/o having to sell an excellent asset, and/or picks to move him. If we can't, we're stuck.

I agree. I think they would be wise to bring Wall off the bench until he learns to play a style that benefits Beal and Porter. Once he can do that, then I would consider starting him again
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#782 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:07 pm

King Ken wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Right now, I feel like we need to move on from wall no matter what. I hope we make something happen .


The problem is his contract is virtually untradable. How do you move that contract w/o having to include a key piece or pieces you don't want to give away? The answer is, you probably can't, unless something like an idiot vet who has GM-like powers like a LeBron wants him, and forces a franchise that feels it has no choice but to make a stupid deal. LeBron did that repeatedly in Cleveland, Melo got New York to sell its idiotic soul rather than wait a year and keep its assets a half decade+ ago, it happens, but its really, really rare and you need a really, really stupid franchise/f.o. and generally, that describes us, not our typical trading partners. We are the prototypical poker player looking to the right and left and not seeing the sucker, and failing to realize, we, of course, are the sucker.


btw: I'd dance a happy jig for days if we somehow unloaded Wall and that contract w/o having to sell an excellent asset, and/or picks to move him. If we can't, we're stuck.

I agree. I think they would be wise to bring Wall off the bench until he learns to play a style that benefits Beal and Porter. Once he can do that, then I would consider starting him again

I understand the sentiment, but I don't think this is wise. There are egos involved. And let's not forget that the problem isn't that Wall is lazy or doesn't care about winning. It's mostly that he plays hurt too much and tries to do too much on offense. He's not a bad guy who deserves punishment or public shaming. He just needs some guidance and coaching.

Wall should start when he comes back. Given his 10 years with the franchise, he has earned it. However, Brooks should stagger Wall and Beal so that one is on the court at all times (meaning Wall should sit early then come in with the second unit). And he needs to have a quicker hook with Wall and insert Sato whenever Wall looks like he is coasting on defense or off the ball. A quick hook isn't as publicly embarrassing as not starting him, but it's a gentle reminder that the team has other options than to play Wall at anything less than 100% effort.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#783 » by doclinkin » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:25 pm

DCZards wrote:I also don't see how the Zards trade Beal...unless it's for a package they simply can't refuse. BB's overall game continues to evolve and get better, and I expect the 25 year old to be a real beast 2-3 years from now. You don't trade that kind of upside unless it's absolutely necessary.

Wall shouldn't be an impediment to Beal continuing to excel. In fact, BB should thrive playing next to Wallstar. But first Wall has to recognize that he has a great running mate in Beal and another excellent complimentary piece in OP...and adjust his play accordingly, starting with becoming a truly pass-first PG.



Wall is a pass-first PG. Of the top 25 highest usage players (Wall is 23) only Harden and Westbrook have a higher Ast%. If you check the assist measures John is in the top tier in every meaningful category.

What he is not is an active and engaged an useful player when he is off the ball. So he dominates the ball because he doesn't do anything else. Maybe cannot do it, maybe does not know how. It's not just his iffy outside shot, it's everything else on offense: backdoor cuts, screens, offensive rebounds, decoy plays and feints. John just doesn't do it. He either has the ball or he stands around. Players like Simmons, Curry, Rondo, CP3, Patty Mills, George HIll, Lonzo, Lowry are all in the top guards in screen assists. Wall doesn't show up til page three.

And when he has the ball he does not stay in motion, probing and circling and keeping his dribble alive in the way of a Nash or Tony Parker or Kyrie. So the team around him stays static, aside from picks and a few set plays. It's predictable. Players on court have to wait and stay passive. Otto, who does do everything, and takes advantage of whatever creases the defense gives him, is reduced to a standstill corner shooter. The team becomes predictable, the only advantage we have then is the fact that Wall IS a superior passer, and when healthy he is one of the quickest and most athletic PGs in the league.

Then too there's his passive defense, which is injury related in part, scheme in part, maybe conditioning related, but also there's some laziness in his game on this end. He can make the flash play. He can make the highlight steal or block, but there is no glory in locking up your man off ball. And he is not reading angles to prevent the pass or disrupt the opponent set plays. And he ought to rebound better and box out etc, but unless his man has the ball he's mostly waiting for someone else to get the board so he can take off in transition. And he rarely fights through a pick. Maybe that's due to injury too. When John is locked in though he is disruptive, not just steals and deflections and blocks, so I have to think some of this is conserving his energy.

Lastly, with a lazy GM and unimpressive coach, John acts as adjunct GM. His post season analysis is taken as an offseason blueprint. The team scrambles to plug in the sort of player that John says the team needs. He's often right, but still, this telegraphs to agents and other teams what we want, and raises the asking price. So our lazy GM overpays early in the free agency and calls it a summer. Goes back to 'scouting' in Italy, etc.

Also, the team does not look forward to any long range plan. The coach has no particular vision or scheme to find players that fit. Our one nod to cleverness is an intentional design flaw to lack depth. So, we win with our stars, or, when they are injured, we can collect lotto tickets. We don't develop our own talent, don't extend them early when they are reasonable, we don't use our late picks, our minor league system, and never find talent that makes up for what John doesn't do, if he is going to be the axle around which all things turn.

A visionary front office would recruit a Steve Nash and ask him to coach. Coach Ginobili. Would pull a Euro coach with a winning record to teach the team game (give David Blatt a second chance) and put savvy hardworking young talent around him to grow a team from the ground up. Would have found a Brad Stevens. Coach Bud. And would not mismanage the cap in desperation every year.

I honestly think Ernie deliberately ruined our cap with Nicholson Mahinmi etc so that the job would not look as tempting to other GMs.

So. Going forward, it's tricky to think how to improve the team with Wall as a centerpiece UNLESS we upgrade the front office. An engaged and fired up John Wall can deserve and earn that contract. Make no mistake. We win a few games a year that we have no business winning simply because Wall has the talent to overcome opposition, and is fired up to make it happen. In those games he is a destructive force at both ends of the floor.

The areas where John is flawed in his game are 100% improvable with effort. If his injury woes are cured, his conditioning and offseason regimen can be focused on being able to outrun and outwork everybody on both ends of the floor. If he had a coach from the right system (every player is a threat off the ball, every player is both decoy, threat, and glue player, motion sets up easy baskets, screens on and off the ball open opportunities to attack) then Wall could be back to being the force he is when she shows up in those giant-killer games. If John Wall let teams even think he was doing that stand around lazy thing but instead crashed backdoor he would have 6 more points a game when teams turned their head away from him and he found the seam and the alley to sprint rise and flush. Picture a two man screen game with Brad and say Troy Brown or Otto, where the ball handler passes to the pick and instead of rolling, John slices in to catch the pass and stuff it. His speed means if teams do lose him in the shuffle, he is a threat from anywhere. He just has to actually shuffle. Shuffle and hustle, John. That's all.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#784 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:43 pm

doclinkin wrote:
DCZards wrote:I also don't see how the Zards trade Beal...unless it's for a package they simply can't refuse. BB's overall game continues to evolve and get better, and I expect the 25 year old to be a real beast 2-3 years from now. You don't trade that kind of upside unless it's absolutely necessary.

Wall shouldn't be an impediment to Beal continuing to excel. In fact, BB should thrive playing next to Wallstar. But first Wall has to recognize that he has a great running mate in Beal and another excellent complimentary piece in OP...and adjust his play accordingly, starting with becoming a truly pass-first PG.



Wall is a pass-first PG. Of the top 25 highest usage players (Wall is 23) only Harden and Westbrook have a higher Ast%. If you check the assist measures John is in the top tier in every meaningful category.

What he is not is an active and engaged an useful player when he is off the ball. So he dominates the ball because he doesn't do anything else. Maybe cannot do it, maybe does not know how. It's not just his iffy outside shot, it's everything else on offense: backdoor cuts, screens, offensive rebounds, decoy plays and feints. John just doesn't do it. He either has the ball or he stands around. Players like Simmons, Curry, Rondo, CP3, Patty Mills, George HIll, Lonzo, Lowry are all in the top guards in screen assists. Wall doesn't show up til page three.

And when he has the ball he does not stay in motion, probing and circling and keeping his dribble alive in the way of a Nash or Tony Parker or Kyrie. So the team around him stays static, aside from picks and a few set plays. It's predictable. Players on court have to wait and stay passive. Otto, who does do everything, and takes advantage of whatever creases the defense gives him, is reduced to a standstill corner shooter. The team becomes predictable, the only advantage we have then is the fact that Wall IS a superior passer, and when healthy he is one of the quickest and most athletic PGs in the league.

Then too there's his passive defense, which is injury related in part, scheme in part, maybe conditioning related, but also there's some laziness in his game on this end. He can make the flash play. He can make the highlight steal or block, but there is no glory in locking up your man off ball. And he is not reading angles to prevent the pass or disrupt the opponent set plays. And he ought to rebound better and box out etc, but unless his man has the ball he's mostly waiting for someone else to get the board so he can take off in transition. And he rarely fights through a pick. Maybe that's due to injury too. When John is locked in though he is disruptive, not just steals and deflections and blocks, so I have to think some of this is conserving his energy.

Lastly, with a lazy GM and unimpressive coach, John acts as adjunct GM. His post season analysis is taken as an offseason blueprint. The team scrambles to plug in the sort of player that John says the team needs. He's often right, but still, this telegraphs to agents and other teams what we want, and raises the asking price. So our lazy GM overpays early in the free agency and calls it a summer. Goes back to 'scouting' in Italy, etc.

Also, the team does not look forward to any long range plan. The coach has no particular vision or scheme to find players that fit. Our one nod to cleverness is an intentional design flaw to lack depth. So, we win with our stars, or, when they are injured, we can collect lotto tickets. We don't develop our own talent, don't extend them early when they are reasonable, we don't use our late picks, our minor league system, and never find talent that makes up for what John doesn't do, if he is going to be the axle around which all things turn.

A visionary front office would recruit a Steve Nash and ask him to coach. Coach Ginobili. Would pull a Euro coach with a winning record to teach the team game (give David Blatt a second chance) and put savvy hardworking young talent around him to grow a team from the ground up. Would have found a Brad Stevens. Coach Bud. And would not mismanage the cap in desperation every year.

I honestly think Ernie deliberately ruined our cap with Nicholson Mahinmi etc so that the job would not look as tempting to other GMs.

So. Going forward, it's tricky to think how to improve the team with Wall as a centerpiece UNLESS we upgrade the front office. An engaged and fired up John Wall can deserve and earn that contract. Make no mistake. We win a few games a year that we have no business winning simply because Wall has the talent to overcome opposition, and is fired up to make it happen. In those games he is a destructive force at both ends of the floor.

The areas where John is flawed in his game are 100% improvable with effort. If his injury woes are cured, his conditioning and offseason regimen can be focused on being able to outrun and outwork everybody on both ends of the floor. If he had a coach from the right system (every player is a threat off the ball, every player is both decoy, threat, and glue player, motion sets up easy baskets, screens on and off the ball open opportunities to attack) then Wall could be back to being the force he is when she shows up in those giant-killer games. If John Wall let teams even think he was doing that stand around lazy thing but instead crashed backdoor he would have 6 more points a game when teams turned their head away from him and he found the seam and the alley to sprint rise and flush. Picture a two man screen game with Brad and say Troy Brown or Otto, where the ball handler passes to the pick and instead of rolling, John slices in to catch the pass and stuff it. His speed means if teams do lose him in the shuffle, he is a threat from anywhere. He just has to actually shuffle. Shuffle and hustle, John. That's all.

This. Doc articulated it perfectly. It seems that Wall never played off the ball anytime in his life and never learned how to. In a different era, he might have had a full NBA career continuing to play the way he has played, as a ball-dominant, focal point of the offense. But in the current era, it's just not possible unless you are James Harden. Defenses are too smart, and they apply too many zone principles to stifle any kind of predictable one-man or two-man game.

Fortunately, John Wall is a smart basketball player and a competitive guy. Hopefully, he can learn some new concepts that he's never had to learn before. He's going to have to buy in though. He must accept that what has worked for him throughout his career doesn't work anymore and that he has to adapt.

One big concern: it's hard to take a crash course in off-the-ball instincts. You really can't practice them except in a game setting. It might be useful to send Wall to the G-League for a few games and have him play full time small forward or something, but that's just not realistic.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#785 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:55 pm

nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
payitforward wrote:Do you really have Bradley Beal rated as one of the top 5 SGs in the league? Is that based on numbers? Or... your personal judgment?


A number of factors. Harden is the only person CLEARLY better. But he is his own entity. What Beal does as a scorer and playmaker is really only matched by Butler, Derozan, and Booker.

I also am careful to be critical of his defense. There are just too many examples of BAD defensive players looker good/improving defensively with better coaching.

Kyrie and Derozan are great examples. Terrible defensive players for years. Then all of a sudden become average year 1 with great coach/system.

So I put Harden, Dipo, and Butler above him. But no one else. Booker is quickly improving, but a sieve defensively.

Who would you put above him?
And if it’s REALLY close, I’ll side with Beal for the following:
- body/work ethic: guy is Mamba-like with his approach and energy levels. Injuries appear far behind him. I love his constant energy. Chasing down his own rebounds, etc.

- System: Brooks, Wittman, EG. you couldn’t pick a more dysfunctional and archaic group of basketball minds. Him with Pop or MDA would be a different animal.

* Braces for a PIF post telling me that Malcolm Brogdan, Danny Green, Marcus Smart and Jeremy Lamb are better than Beal. *

EDIT, though I must say, Brodgan is having a heck of a season.

I love Brogdan, but Milwaukee fans would give their right bleeps for Beal. Reading the Bucks forum, he's the most talked about player that Bucks fans would love to trade for.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#786 » by Dat2U » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:48 pm

Hypothetical scenario:

Chicago lands the 2nd pick in the draft in the lottery. They are desperate to add a star after missing out on Zion.

The Bulls offer the 2nd pick, Zach Lavine & Chandler Hutchison for Bradley Beal.

Do you take it? If so, who do you draft.

I would lean yes cause I'm not convinced Beal will stay beyond his next deal but it's not an easy decision. Right now I would pick Morant but that's subject to change.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#787 » by DCZards » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:52 pm

doc, Wall used to be a pass-first PG but lately he’s become more of a pound-the-ball-and-look-for-my-shot PG. Yes, John is a superior passer when he wants to be but that’s too often not the case.

I think both you and Nate are spot on with your analysis of how Wall currently plays the game (especially on the offensive end) and what he needs to do to improve…and help his team and teammates. I agree that Wall is a transcendent talent who can take over games in ways that few NBA players can. A healthy Wall playing the right way is still a tremendous (albeit costly) asset.

What’s needed most, imo, is better coaching and, of course, Wall’s willingness to accept that coaching—even if means him getting yanked out of the game when he’s not playing as instructed.

I always find it interesting when people bring up former players like Nash and Ginobili as possible coaches. Both Nash & Ginobli were great players but is there any indication that they can coach? I certainly don’t want the Zards being the guinea pig for that experiment, particularly when the franchise is already on shaky ground under its current coach and GM.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#788 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Dat2U wrote:Hypothetical scenario:

Chicago lands the 2nd pick in the draft in the lottery. They are desperate to add a star after missing out on Zion.

The Bulls offer the 2nd pick, Zach Lavine & Chandler Hutchison for Bradley Beal.

Do you take it? If so, who do you draft.

I would lean yes cause I'm not convinced Beal will stay beyond his next deal but it's not an easy decision. Right now I would pick Morant but that's subject to change.

I'd definitely make that trade - Zach's become quite a player, and he's signed reasonably for 3 more seasons.

I'd then trade the 2nd pick to Boston for 3 of their 4 1st rounders - figuring they'd want Barrett. Right now, their picks would be 9, 13, 21, and 22, so I'd take 9,13, and their last 1st. We'd also have the 6th pick - yes, 6th. There's only one team in the West with a worse record than the Wiz.

With our pick, I take Rui Hachimura. With the 9th pick, I take Darius Garland. At 13, I take one of 4 centers: Bruno Fernando, Jaxson Hayes, Bol Bol, or Jontay Porter. At 22, I take Brandon Clarke.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#789 » by doclinkin » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:39 pm

DCZards wrote:doc, Wall used to be a pass-first PG but lately he’s become more of a pound-the-ball-and-look-for-my-shot PG. Yes, John is a superior passer when he wants to be but that’s too often not the case.

I think both you and Nate are spot on with your analysis of how Wall currently plays the game (especially on the offensive end) and what he needs to do to improve…and help his team and teammates. I agree that Wall is a transcendent talent who can take over games in ways that few NBA players can. A healthy Wall playing the right way is still a tremendous (albeit costly) asset.

What’s needed most, imo, is better coaching and, of course, Wall’s willingness to accept that coaching—even if means him getting yanked out of the game when he’s not playing as instructed.

I always find it interesting when people bring up former players like Nash and Ginobili as possible coaches. Both Nash & Ginobili were great players but is there any indication that they can coach? I certainly don’t want the Zards being the guinea pig for that experiment, particularly when the franchise is already on shaky ground under its current coach and GM.


The numbers say differently. The numbers say Wall --even this year, even pounding the rock-- assists on half his possessions.

As for can Manu coach. He says he doesn't want to. Okay. But can he? If you watched him on the bench he was attentive to what coaches were saying even when he wasn't in the game, and when playing he would often follow up with a player afterwards talking all the way out onto the floor. When he subbed in he would approach two players and tell them what he had seen from the bench.

This was Manu, seen a few times in his career:


As for Nash. He has stated he absolutely would love to be a coach or in the front office sometime. He has worked in player development with the Warriors. And if you hear him speak you know this is an incredibly intelligent basketball lifer. Plus his politics and activism would find a perfect fit here in DC.



Both Manu and Ginobili were the sort of players who had to maximize their smarts to succeed in the league. Both were team leaders, coaches on the floor. This team has tried and failed with a dozen or so coaches who had already had experience in the league, for my money why not try someone with a different perspective, a figurehead that players can look up to. If Scrubby Brooks is talking to a star player, okay he's the coach, but there have been coaches here before and will be after him. But if Ginobili tells you how it was done,if Hall of Famer Nash suggests a sly wrinkle to make the game easier for you, why wouldn't you listen? And half of coaching is managing personalities. All former Suns say Nash was what made that team succeed. And you don't think free agents would be willing to listen to a sales pitch from the guy who ignited the uptempo era?

Seems to me with a track record of failure we need to try something new to ignite interest and excitement not just in our fans and around the league, but in the locker room as well. If our point guard is our best asset, and highest paid player, why not get him an upgrade in advice and a role model to work with, a coach who he will respect on credentials coming in the door.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#790 » by DCZards » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Seems to me with a track record of failure we need to try something new to ignite interest and excitement not just in our fans and around the league, but in the locker room as well. If our point guard is our best asset, and highest paid player, why not get him an upgrade in advice and a role model to work with, a coach who he will respect on credentials coming in the door.


I have no idea whether Wall would respect Ginobili or Nash as a coach. Players don't always listen to former players simply because they played the same position or were outstanding players.

But I do know that Wall reportedly has a ton of respect for one former two-time championship winning PG. One who is actually a proven, veteran assistant coach. Sam Cassell.

He too had to maximize his smarts--along with his fearlessness--to succeed in the NBA. And Sam comes from the hardscrabble streets of B'More and won't take no shyt from Wall or any of the other highly-paid youngins'.

I vote for Sam as the Zards next head coach. Hiring Cassell, someone with local roots, would juice up the fan base more than the presence of Manu or Nash.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#791 » by Dat2U » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:49 pm

DCZards wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Seems to me with a track record of failure we need to try something new to ignite interest and excitement not just in our fans and around the league, but in the locker room as well. If our point guard is our best asset, and highest paid player, why not get him an upgrade in advice and a role model to work with, a coach who he will respect on credentials coming in the door.


I have no idea whether Wall would respect Ginobili or Nash as a coach. Players don't always listen to former players simply because they played the same position or were outstanding players.

But I do know that Wall reportedly has a ton of respect for one former two-time championship winning PG. One who is actually a proven, veteran assistant coach. Sam Cassell. He too had to maximize his smarts--as well as big balls--to succeed in the NBA. And Sam comes from the hardscrabble streets of B'More and won't take no shyt from Wall or any of the other highly-paid youngins'.

I vote for Sam as the Zards next head coach.


You mean the same guy that made Wall & Beal fall in love with the mid-range game. Wall & Beal literally became the two worst mid-range gunners in the league and were still trying to break them out of those habits years later. Cassell was the same guy that told Wall & Chris Singleton at the time to stop shooting 3s.

I don't care if Wall respects him or if he's tough enough for the job. He's not shown anything indicating he'd be a viable head coaching candidate and his impact in DC was not necessarily a positive one for the development of Wall & Beal IMO.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#792 » by DCZards » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:00 pm

Dat2U wrote:
You mean the same guy that made Wall & Beal fall in love with the mid-range game. Wall & Beal literally became the two worst mid-range gunners in the league and were still trying to break them out of those habits years later. Cassell was the same guy that told Wall & Chris Singleton at the time to stop shooting 3s.

I don't care if Wall respects him or if he's tough enough for the job. He's not shown anything indicating he'd be a viable head coaching candidate and his impact in DC was not necessarily a positive one for the development of Wall & Beal IMO.


Don't disagree that Cassell would be wrong for emphasizing the midrange game over shooting 3s...if that is indeed true. But that was several years ago and people and coaches evolve. And I think you're wrong when you say that Sam didn't have a positive impact on the development of Wall & Beal.

Here's a blurb on Sam's career as an assistant coach from the National Basketball Coaches Association publication.

Cassell retired following his championship win with Boston, tallying three titles in his storied career and found an assistant coaching job. Under former head coach at Minnesota Flip Saunders, Cassell served five seasons as assistant for the Washington Wizards. Cassell was prominent in the emergence and improvement of young guards John Wall and Bradley Beal.

After a five year stint with the Wizards, Cassell joined Doc Rivers’ coaching staff at his new position at the time for the Los Angeles Clippers. Clipper guard Austin Rivers constantly praises Cassell as being the driving force behind his yearly improvement. Cassell’s work on Rivers mid range game as well as play making has seen instantaneous results within the team. It was not that far removed that former Clipper point guard Chris Paul credited Cassell with being a great motivator and driving force between working elaborately with the team’s guards on skills and in game mentality.

https://nbacoaches.com/from-the-court-to-the-sidelines-sam-cassell-has-been-through-it-all-with-the-los-angeles-clippers/
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#793 » by Dat2U » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:03 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
You mean the same guy that made Wall & Beal fall in love with the mid-range game. Wall & Beal literally became the two worst mid-range gunners in the league and were still trying to break them out of those habits years later. Cassell was the same guy that told Wall & Chris Singleton at the time to stop shooting 3s.

I don't care if Wall respects him or if he's tough enough for the job. He's not shown anything indicating he'd be a viable head coaching candidate and his impact in DC was not necessarily a positive one for the development of Wall & Beal IMO.


Don't disagree that Cassell would be wrong for emphasizing the midrange game over shooting 3s...if that is indeed true. But that was several years ago and people and coaches evolve. And I think you're wrong when you say that Sam didn't have a positive impact on the development of Wall & Beal.

Here's a blurb on Sam's career as an assistant coach from the National Basketball Coaches Association publication.

Cassell retired following his championship win with Boston, tallying three titles in his storied career and found an assistant coaching job. Under former head coach at Minnesota Flip Saunders, Cassell served five seasons as assistant for the Washington Wizards. Cassell was prominent in the emergence and improvement of young guards John Wall and Bradley Beal.

After a five year stint with the Wizards, Cassell joined Doc Rivers’ coaching staff at his new position at the time for the Los Angeles Clippers. Clipper guard Austin Rivers constantly praises Cassell as being the driving force behind his yearly improvement. Cassell’s work on Rivers mid range game as well as play making has seen instantaneous results within the team. It was not that far removed that former Clipper point guard Chris Paul credited Cassell with being a great motivator and driving force between working elaborately with the team’s guards on skills and in game mentality.

https://nbacoaches.com/from-the-court-to-the-sidelines-sam-cassell-has-been-through-it-all-with-the-los-angeles-clippers/


So Cassell was responsible for Austin Rivers' mid range game?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Your not exactly selling me on this move!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#794 » by doclinkin » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm

Dat2U wrote:
DCZards wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Seems to me with a track record of failure we need to try something new to ignite interest and excitement not just in our fans and around the league, but in the locker room as well. If our point guard is our best asset, and highest paid player, why not get him an upgrade in advice and a role model to work with, a coach who he will respect on credentials coming in the door.


I have no idea whether Wall would respect Ginobili or Nash as a coach. Players don't always listen to former players simply because they played the same position or were outstanding players.

But I do know that Wall reportedly has a ton of respect for one former two-time championship winning PG. One who is actually a proven, veteran assistant coach. Sam Cassell. He too had to maximize his smarts--as well as big balls--to succeed in the NBA. And Sam comes from the hardscrabble streets of B'More and won't take no shyt from Wall or any of the other highly-paid youngins'.

I vote for Sam as the Zards next head coach.


You mean the same guy that made Wall & Beal fall in love with the mid-range game. Wall & Beal literally became the two worst mid-range gunners in the league and were still trying to break them out of those habits years later. Cassell was the same guy that told Wall & Chris Singleton at the time to stop shooting 3s.

I don't care if Wall respects him or if he's tough enough for the job. He's not shown anything indicating he'd be a viable head coaching candidate and his impact in DC was not necessarily a positive one for the development of Wall & Beal IMO.


Right, whereas with Nash and Manu we have players at least who were integral in two of the successful systems currently being played.

Many teams are trying the uptempo system that Nash thrived under, where Amare was a often a non traditional 5 playing a face up game in a small ball offense, and SF Shawn Marion often played a small PF next to him. I cited him since his play style would benefit John even absent the development of his outside shot. In fact I recall an interview where he went to Steve Nash skills camp as a highschooler and added tools to his game emulating some of his style.

What we are talking about here is how do we maximize what John does well, to rehabilitate him as a player or an asset if you're cynical. An uptempo system or a motion system where John can run players ragged trying to keep up with him seems a good fit.

Whereas Sam, much as I love him, he has never had to run in that sort of system, and his strength as a player was the heft of his cojones and the constant constant yammering on court and off. And, right, that midrange and low post guard game. I don't see the natural fit except that the sidelines and post game interviews would be worth tuning in for.

.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#795 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:48 pm

ClutchDJ wrote:
CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
nate33 wrote:I have no interest in trading Beal whatsoever. I don't think there's a package Orlando can offer that would entice me. I'm not saying Orlando can't put together a package that's fair, it's just that there's no motivation for us to move Beal for equal value. Beal is awesome, and as pcbothwel put it, he's a pro's pro. He brings it every night, and every offseason he works to add something new to his game. He's only 25 years old. Why would we want to trade him?

The only way I'd change my mind is if Beal quietly requested a trade. Until then, I'd only be interested in trading him in a deal that, due to another team's desperation, is lopsided in our favor. Something like Beal for Ben Simmons is what I'm talking about.


I don’t know, I’d have some serious hesitations for trading a very good shooter for someone’s whose skill in that area is none existent. Simmons is young I get it, and he may develop a shot but am I the only one that feels that Simmons is bigger, suped up version of MIchael Carrer Williams? He doesn’t shoot threes at all, what happens to his value if he gets an injury (or as he ages) that makes his driving ability less explosive? Will he rely on a post game as an undersized tweener? Yes, he has great vision, he’s a good rebounder, and is a terror getting to the rim, but for the sake of being redundant, he can’t shoot. He’s also a bad free throw shooter to boot.I think some of the shine is wearing off on him now that he’s not a rookie anymore.

Maybe I’m being a bit harsh in my outlook with him but it also hurts the argument for a trade like that because Beal is blossoming as a player and he’s got a game that to me seems like it with age well while still being only 25. He also doesn’t seem to have a giant ego, and looks genuinely happy with his teammates success. Now if he would stop slipping all the time, he might be pretty close to untradeable unless for a tier 1 player. Kidding aside, I feel that Beal is can be a cornerstone for us for the next 8-10 years.

This 100%.

Wow... I'd call that laughable. Ben Simmons is one of the very best players in the NBA -- in his 2d year in the league! At 22 years old!

Brad has improved on a slowish start in the last several weeks. & he is a very good player. I wanted him as our pick. I supported him when people here called him a bust. Etc.

But, Brad at his very very best in his 5th year in the league wasn't on the same tier as Ben Simmons. & he isn't a young developing player; he is a mature NBA player in his 7th season -- likely entering the 2d half of his career in other words. He's at his peak, & at his peak he is not one of the top handful of NBA SGs (which doesn't mean he isn't very good -- he is, as I've said).

Man... do fans love their team's players!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#796 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:55 pm

nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
payitforward wrote:Do you really have Bradley Beal rated as one of the top 5 SGs in the league? Is that based on numbers? Or... your personal judgment?


A number of factors. Harden is the only person CLEARLY better. But he is his own entity. What Beal does as a scorer and playmaker is really only matched by Butler, Derozan, and Booker.

I also am careful to be critical of his defense. There are just too many examples of BAD defensive players looker good/improving defensively with better coaching.

Kyrie and Derozan are great examples. Terrible defensive players for years. Then all of a sudden become average year 1 with great coach/system.

So I put Harden, Dipo, and Butler above him. But no one else. Booker is quickly improving, but a sieve defensively.

Who would you put above him?
And if it’s REALLY close, I’ll side with Beal for the following:
- body/work ethic: guy is Mamba-like with his approach and energy levels. Injuries appear far behind him. I love his constant energy. Chasing down his own rebounds, etc.

- System: Brooks, Wittman, EG. you couldn’t pick a more dysfunctional and archaic group of basketball minds. Him with Pop or MDA would be a different animal.

* Braces for a PIF post telling me that Malcolm Brogdan, Danny Green, Marcus Smart and Jeremy Lamb are better than Beal. *

EDIT, though I must say, Brodgan is having a heck of a season.

He sure is.

I will respond on this subject -- but can't right now. Traveled all day yesterday & giving a reading tonight. As you know, I am a big fan of Bradley Beal. I just view hims as being as good as his numbers, as I would Brogdon or any other player. & I wouldn't judge Brogdon or anyone on the basis of his best season. Ditto Beal.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#797 » by queridiculo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:04 pm

There's going to be a time when Ben Simmons may be one of the very best players in the league, he isn't right now, and we would be having different conversations about his game if he was asked the shoulder the weight of leading a franchise.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#798 » by Kanyewest » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:51 pm

Yeah, that shot chart may disqualify from being one of the top 5 players in the league. That being said, Simmons just became the first guard in NBA history to have a 20 points and 20 rebounds in 28 years. He is right now only 22. I am a bit discouraged that he isn't attempting any 3s but he is still a really good player that could get better.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#799 » by queridiculo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:02 am

If you're willing to accept that Simmons is a guard that makes sense.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#800 » by DCZards » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:55 am

payitforward wrote:
But, Brad at his very very best in his 5th year in the league wasn't on the same tier as Ben Simmons. & he isn't a young developing player; he is a mature NBA player in his 7th season -- likely entering the 2d half of his career in other words. He's at his peak, & at his peak he is not one of the top handful of NBA SGs (which doesn't mean he isn't very good -- he is, as I've said).

Man... do fans love their team's players!


C'mon, pif. Beal is at his peak. At 25! There's no way of knowing that for sure. Weren't you saying something similar about Paul George three years ago when he was 25?

Yeah, we love Beal. But, on the other hand, I think you grossly underrate him. Who are the handful of NBA SGs who you consider better players than Beal?

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