PG Thread: Excellent loss

[Guano]

even 3rd is not guaranteed yet for us, lot of season left. so, you gotta stay in the hunt and hope for these other teams to win some.

mixing knick fandom and hope is a dangerous combo

[Juco24]

Frank is really developing that euro step as his go to move. Things are progressing for him... Just at snails pace. Something many don't want to hear. PATIENCE

[Triple C]

Read on Twitter

[Fat Kat]

Read on Twitter

Trade brewing?

[BLACKFEET 2010]

Hmmmm. Did Burke even play yesterday?

[Billy Goat]

Volume scorer is one of the more bizarre terms thrown around these days. Like, I got an insult for guys that score a lot like that's not the **** point of the game.

Scoring without context is meaningless. Anyone can score a lot if they take enough shots. The key to scoring is the rate that the shots go in. The Knicks, as a a team, struggle immensely with efficiency. It's why they're bad.

Most people hated Melo for this reason...but love Knox and KP who are both doing their best to immitate him.

If the goal was to move towards more effective and efficient scoring then this is not the answer.

People will point to PG...which is the same issue as before.

Sure. Knox is only 19 so it’s way too early. I don’t love the situation or the staff, which could potentially leave these bad habits ingrained. The Knicks manage to combine high usage/low assist players as if its smart to build a team like that.

[Greenie]

Scoring without context is meaningless. Anyone can score a lot if they take enough shots. The key to scoring is the rate that the shots go in. The Knicks, as a a team, struggle immensely with efficiency. It's why they're bad.

Most people hated Melo for this reason...but love Knox and KP who are both doing their best to immitate him.

If the goal was to move towards more effective and efficient scoring then this is not the answer.

People will point to PG...which is the same issue as before.

Sure. Knox is only 19 so it’s way too early. I don’t love the situation or the staff, which could potentially leave these bad habits ingrained. The Knicks manage to combine high usage/low assist players as if its smart to build a team like that.

This staff isn’t going to change the way Knox plays at all.

We literally drafted him because of a pick up game.


What bad habits has Fiz whipped out of anyone?

I’ll wait.

[Greenie]

Scoring without context is meaningless. Anyone can score a lot if they take enough shots. The key to scoring is the rate that the shots go in. The Knicks, as a a team, struggle immensely with efficiency. It's why they're bad.

Most people hated Melo for this reason...but love Knox and KP who are both doing their best to immitate him.

If the goal was to move towards more effective and efficient scoring then this is not the answer.

People will point to PG...which is the same issue as before.

12-24 FGs
4-9 3PTs
3-4 FTs

Remind me again how those %s are NOT good for a Wing? Also, you hate when people randomly bring up Melo, yet here you are doing just that.

—Mags

Do I get to actually respond or will I be told to leave it alone since it won’t be what you wanna hear?

Because I have an actual response.

[Jstarks3]

and f*ck the dumb sh*t. cavs about to pull out the win, keep your eyes on the road.

Now wait til we end up with the worst record but the Cavs jump us for the #1 pick

Honestly, from a game theory perspective, if you're trying to get the #1 pick, it makes no difference if you're the worst or 3rd worst team, cause the odds are the same

It's like betting on a dice roll and picking 6 cause it's the highest number

Having fifth pick at worst is still better than having the sixth or lower regardless.

how do people not get this?!

[Tron Carter]

fixating on a rookie wings efficiency is just weird. KD shot 43% from the field and sub 30 from 3. Now he’s one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Knox gets all his shots in the flow of the game and rarely holds the ball. he’s always in attack mode. I also still think fiz could cut his minutes down and that would help his efficiency as well because he gets gassed down the stretch sometimes.

[thebuzzardman]

Embiid is a crying pussy. He throws his elbows all over the place but then when somebody makes contact with him the tears flow. I can't wait until I no longer have to watch mudiay. That being said he is instant tank from the moment he steps on the court, he is the worst defensive guard in the league. He's complete inefficient trash on offense, he gets blocked and dribbles the ball off his foot every 2 minutes. Knox as the youngest player in the league is way ahead of ehere I thought he'd be even playing with chucker trash like Mudiay, Tammy and Kunter.

He’s actually 75/98 in DRPM. There are 23 point guards worse than him defensively including Frank Ntlikina at 89.

Well, clearly DRPM is the be all and end all for analyzing player defense.

I mean, I always suspected Mudiay was the superior defender to Frank. Thank god there is this metric to support my suspicions.

[DOT]

Now wait til we end up with the worst record but the Cavs jump us for the #1 pick

Honestly, from a game theory perspective, if you're trying to get the #1 pick, it makes no difference if you're the worst or 3rd worst team, cause the odds are the same

It's like betting on a dice roll and picking 6 cause it's the highest number

Having fifth pick at worst is still better than having the sixth or lower regardless.

how do people not get this?!

How do people not get I put the qualifier "if you're trying to get the #1 pick?"

Obviously having 5th pick at worst is better than a 50% chance you get 6th or 7th, but once you're in the top 3, if your goal is simply to get the #1 pick, then it doesn't make any difference whether you're worst or 3rd worst

I thought I was pretty clear, obviously I wasn't

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[whocares1]

Embiid is a crying pussy. He throws his elbows all over the place but then when somebody makes contact with him the tears flow. I can't wait until I no longer have to watch mudiay. That being said he is instant tank from the moment he steps on the court, he is the worst defensive guard in the league. He's complete inefficient trash on offense, he gets blocked and dribbles the ball off his foot every 2 minutes. Knox as the youngest player in the league is way ahead of ehere I thought he'd be even playing with chucker trash like Mudiay, Tammy and Kunter.

He’s actually 75/98 in DRPM. There are 23 point guards worse than him defensively including Frank Ntlikina at 89.

Well, clearly DRPM is the be all and end all for analyzing player defense.

I mean, I always suspected Mudiay was the superior defender to Frank. Thank god there is this metric to support my suspicions.

And yet people were going balls deep for that starting lineup that had the best net rating. You can’t use statistics to back your argument and then claim they’re silly when they don’t.

DRPM ranks defensive performance NOT defenders.
Last season Mudiay was 80/80 in DRPM. I guess last season the stat was accurate but this season it isn’t right?

Point is that Mudiay has statistically been a better defender than Frank. That is a fact.

[Deeeez Knicks]

He’s actually 75/98 in DRPM. There are 23 point guards worse than him defensively including Frank Ntlikina at 89.

Well, clearly DRPM is the be all and end all for analyzing player defense.

I mean, I always suspected Mudiay was the superior defender to Frank. Thank god there is this metric to support my suspicions.

And yet people were going balls deep for that starting lineup that had the best net rating. You can’t use statistics to back your argument and then claim they’re silly when they don’t.

DRPM ranks defensive performance NOT defenders.
Last season Mudiay was 80/80 in DRPM. I guess last season the stat was accurate but this season it isn’t right?

Point is that Mudiay has statistically been a better defender than Frank. That is a fact.

DRPM is different then NET Ratings.

Neither is the end all be all, and both need context.

Basically if you are 75/98 or 80/80, it is not a ranking system but points to signs that you are a bad defender.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Frank is really developing that euro step as his go to move. Things are progressing for him... Just at snails pace. Something many don't want to hear. PATIENCE

in the grand scheme of things, is it really THAT slow? he's a 20-year-old in his second NBA season.

[thebuzzardman]

I’m talking efficient scoring.

Not style of play.

I don’t see KD either.

So every inefficient shot is a Melo shot? Cool. Now move on.

On this board? Yeah.

As I said before. Either we want efficient players or we don’t.

Replace Melo with Timmy. Same rules apply. One of Timmy biggest knocks is his utter lack of efficiency.

People literally call dude a female. Knox is literally shooting worse from the field. Rookie or not efficiency should be a concern.

Here are the issues you are conflating, somewhat.

While it's fair to point out KP has some Melo tendencies (not the greatest distributor, puts up enuff shots, not super efficient) and Knox can definitely put them up without shooting a great percentage, not unlike THJr, there's a few important differences, well, really like 2, that separate them all from each other.

KP vs Melo
Melo was a better scorer all the way around, and just may wind up career wise. KP is 7'3", alters shots at the rim and changes the defensive complexion in a way Melo NEVER did. I'd add KP is a way more willing defender than at least Knick Melo and a good defender overall (some debate there I know) while Melo was a middling defender from the start and steadily got less interested in defense, and therefore started to actually suck at it, as his Knick career went on.

Knox vs THJr. Both take a bunch o' 3's. Both not make often a bunch o' 3's. Sometimes each guy gets hot and makes a bunch of 3's. THJr is clearly more offensively refined right now and is the superior offensive player. Probably better at passing too, when he flashes that desire every 5th game. Both take a lot of shots, both force it at times, both somewhat streaky, both not good defenders. THJr might be a better defender than Knox, at the moment.

Key differences
Melo was an enormous cap eating contract and had many years more experience of KP; KP gets some benefit of the doubt that that he would/still might develop. It's also fair to say he might not and every criticism today will be just as true 2,4,6 years from now.
Most important difference? KP still on that rookie scale.
Knox is 19. Knox is on his rookie scale. Knox might get better. Last year I thought THJr might improve (some) into his contract. Maybe he did, a little, in handling the scoring load, but really, he's not that much different from when he signed that ridiculous contract. (Thanks Mills).

Sure, I know the counter will be "players should get theirs" and "it's not their fault they got the $, it's the FO" and that's correct and valid. But in a sport where there's a hard enough cap, dollars vs performance and years/dollars impact on the future growth of the team color and drive fan perception.

I mean, I really like Alan Houston as a Knick, but for his last 2,3 years? I kind of hated him. Couldn't wait for him to be gone. Because his contract was a killer. Sort of irrational? I guess so. So is watching a bunch of guys running around sweating trying to throw a rubber sphere into a metal ring.


Let me expand a little to another post I was going to make. It's a little bit about the game.

Mario plays a little bit better when THJr isn't out there. It's probably a good idea they aren't on the floor together. (Well, if you care about defense for starters). But it's because Mario kind of plays like the bleached crappy version of THJr, but a little bit more pass first. Both want the ball in their hands, both are kind of reckless with shot selection, the difference being THJr makes his drives and those are pretty solid, while THJr is more reckless and not in control on jumpers. Both just play a little dumb a little too often and like having the ball. Difference? Mario only costs 6 million or whatever and is on a one year deal.
Just like Trier is "THJr like" in terms of tunnel vision, questionable shots, tendency to wander and not lock in on D. Cost? 4 million for 2 years?
Each player feels like 75% of THJr, for 1/4 or 1/2 the years, at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost.

Lets move on the Mudiay, Frank and Burke.
Other than different styles of play, they are all polarizing, to one degree or another. Other than having stuff to complain about and the classic "this player vs that player" on Knicks realgm, I find it hard to really hate any of them. Yeah, I prefer Frank, but Mudiay has been decent. Mudiay aggravates in some ways, Frank in others, Burke in others still. Franks on a rookie deal (ironically here potentially the longest), Mudiay was acquired when he had half a season and 1 more year for a spare part in McDermott and Burke cost nothing but taking a G-League flyer last year and signing him to 1 year deal this year.

Unlike Knick players of old who I couldn't stand because the team was stuck with them and the team tied it's own hands with them, ruining both present play and future hope for the fans, at least this iteration, while not all that great, has players there is a hope they might get better - actuality might say otherwise - and that aren't impacting future ability to be flexible, get better.

If KP winds up getting 35-40 million per and is the same guy he was last year and the year before, yeah, I'm going to be a critic.

It's one of the reasons why when people float "Trade KP" ideas, I don't dismiss them. KP might wind up in place where he's paid like a top top top of the league superstar and produces a bit below Kevin Love, overall.

[thebuzzardman]

He’s actually 75/98 in DRPM. There are 23 point guards worse than him defensively including Frank Ntlikina at 89.

Well, clearly DRPM is the be all and end all for analyzing player defense.

I mean, I always suspected Mudiay was the superior defender to Frank. Thank god there is this metric to support my suspicions.

And yet people were going balls deep for that starting lineup that had the best net rating. You can’t use statistics to back your argument and then claim they’re silly when they don’t.

DRPM ranks defensive performance NOT defenders.
Last season Mudiay was 80/80 in DRPM. I guess last season the stat was accurate but this season it isn’t right?

Point is that Mudiay has statistically been a better defender than Frank. That is a fact.

Whoever went balls deep for that statistical lineup wasn't me, based on stats. You just watch and tell it was a good defensive unit. On the other hand, other than a few games where it seemed to click a bit on offense, it was pretty clear it started to struggle. Again, based on watching, not stats.

All those stats get skewed by a number of things; who a guy is playing against (starters, bench) who they are playing with (good defenders, bad ones, lineups that make sense). You know this. Most people on the board know it.

Mudiay hasn't been terrible defensively. He hasn't been good either. He's been good in flashes/games, been bad in others. Frank in general is a good defender. He's not perfect and absolutely gets beat. It's the NBA. Teams basically make every other shot they take.

Stats have some use, but in sports outside baseball (and even then), without film and context they are sort of useless.

Also, for both Mudiay and Frank and every Knick, Fizzles craptastic zones hurt their defensive metrics. If you care about metrics, which I don't.

[BowlRips]

Can't compare KP to Melo.
Melo was terribly defensively.
KP led the league in rim protection efficiency.

[thebuzzardman]

Can't compare KP to Melo.
Melo was terribly defensively.
KP led the league in rim protection efficiency.

Greenie was comparing that Melo caught grief for hoisting up shots inefficiently, while KP would do the same but not be called on it. Also, both guys are guys who sort of need to be fed the ball - not run an offense through - not yet for KP, maybe never.

Obviously KP is the better defender, though I'd expect the "KP can't guard the perimeter" argument to get trotted out.
KP still makes teams play different when he gets to guard the post, and he was there often enough for me to see the impact, and I'm sure everyone else.

Melo's defensive specialty was to blow his defensive assignment and then point at a teammate. THJr is getting pretty good at that too.

[dakomish23]

Can't compare KP to Melo.
Melo was terribly defensively.
KP led the league in rim protection efficiency.

Greenie was comparing that Melo caught grief for hoisting up shots inefficiently, while KP would do the same but not be called on it. Also, both guys are guys who sort of need to be fed the ball - not run an offense through - not yet for KP, maybe never.

Obviously KP is the better defender, though I'd expect the "KP can't guard the perimeter" argument to get trotted out.
KP still makes teams play different when he gets to guard the post, and he was there often enough for me to see the impact, and I'm sure everyone else.

Melo's defensive specialty was to blow his defensive assignment and then point at a teammate. THJr is getting pretty good at that too.

THJ has def picked up the mantle. I thought Felton was the biggest culprit. Must have done it 500x that 13-14 season