Luka Dončić Discussion - Year 2

Archx · Post #941 » by **Archx** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:35 am

Dirk wrote:By the way,

Luka w/ DSJ ON: usage 27.8%; FG% 45.4; TS% 57
Luka w/ DSJ OFF: usage 29%; FG% 41.5; TS% 55.8

While team is better with Luka running things, I was surprised that he shot better with DSJ on the floor with him.

I'm shocked you just noticed that lol... What DSJ does good is drive to the basket and make defense collapse on him. But here is also where the real problem starts for DSJ. He is similar to Barnes, often just tunnel visions and goes up against 2 or 3 defenders. Often Luka or someone else waits open at the 3pt line for DSJ to pass but it rarely happens. Rick started subbing out DSJ early with Barea because he was frustrated with how he breaks up the offensive set and does something foolish. But when DSJ stays within his limits and actually decides to create for others, he is a valuable asset. Problem is, he wants to play like Russ without the passing way too often.

DJ_3_Ball · Post #942 » by **DJ_3_Ball** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:51 am

Archx wrote:
Dirk wrote:By the way,

Luka w/ DSJ ON: usage 27.8%; FG% 45.4; TS% 57
Luka w/ DSJ OFF: usage 29%; FG% 41.5; TS% 55.8

While team is better with Luka running things, I was surprised that he shot better with DSJ on the floor with him.

I'm shocked you just noticed that lol... What DSJ does good is drive to the basket and make defense collapse on him. But here is also where the real problem starts for DSJ. He is similar to Barnes, often just tunnel visions and goes up against 2 or 3 defenders. Often Luka or someone else waits open at the 3pt line for DSJ to pass but it rarely happens. Rick started subbing out DSJ early with Barea because he was frustrated with how he breaks up the offensive set and does something foolish. But when DSJ stays within his limits and actually decides to create for others, he is a valuable asset. Problem is, he wants to play like Russ without the passing way too often.

And here's the other thing with this. Rick was asked a ton of questions last year about tanking. I mean, there wasn't much else to talk about. I was having a hard time containing myself with the excitement from the idea Ayton or Doncic or Jaren Jackson Jr might be a Mav, so all I wanted to hear was Mavs tanking talk last year... So, whenever Rick got a question other than tanking, he gleefully changed subjects. I remember listening to some of those boring post-game interviews.

Carlisle repeatedly talked about how he & DSJ watched film together. He made it sound like Dennis Smith Jr was his director of video scouting... So, you're telling me that our all world, unquestioned Top 2 head coach in the league (at least he was called that at one point... granted it was closer to the 2011 championship), genius head coach watches hours upon hours upon hours of film with our rookie PG, and now in his second year DSJ has no idea what to do out there...

That doesn't sound like good coaching to me. That sounds like Carlisle didn't accomplish much in those film sessions with junior.

DrPampiloni · Post #943 » by **DrPampiloni** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:03 am

DJ_3_Ball wrote:
Archx wrote:
DJ_3_Ball wrote:
But, if that's the case, then I think they need to have a serious talk with the scouting department i.e. whoever thought DSJ should be taken with the #9 pick.

Because it was either a failure in scouting, or the Mavs are failing right now in how they're handling this. It's pretty black & white when it comes to that.

They picked the guy who thought was the best player available at that point. Can't blame them for that. I don't think Luka Doncic was on the Mavs front office plans in June 2017: so many pieces fell into place for this to happen... And you have to take into account all the question marks on Luka's NBA-readiness that were flying around until as late as the preseason. Of course we all know that was nonsense. But imagine Luka didn't explode right from the start. Having DSJ would have been good.

Maybe they get Bamba (the guy Dallas would have probably picked, still a top ten pick and a good excuse not to resign DAJ to a lot of silly money) + 1st pick (that would make up for the one that's going to atlanta probably) from Orlando. I didn't do the math and of course to include Wes, someone else must be involved.

I don't know what's wrong with DSJ. Maybe he just feels too much pressure from how Luka is performing (and how he thinks he should be just as good), and just wants out.
I still like him, but if that's his spirit right now... Hell, get rid of him.

burek3 · Post #944 » by **burek3** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:26 am

DJ_3_Ball wrote:
Archx wrote:... problem is DSJ is a bad decision maker and ball simply stopped with him.

DSJ is, but he's also a 2nd year player at the PG position. It's just simply too early to pull the plug on him. I mean, this team isn't contending for a title this season, or next. Probably not until Golden State breaks up the band, so what were the Mavs really losing by being more patient with DSJ?

I don't remember anyone accusing Russell Westbrook of being a good decision maker in his first 3 years in the league either, but Russ (to some extent, anyways) started figuring things out (he's still not exactly a facilitator).

The bottom line on this is you can't teach someone to do the things Russ or DSJ do. That kind of rare, freakish athletic ability demands that you are much more patient with that player.

I also thought our "Top 5" coach in the league was suppose to be able to... I don't know... do some coaching? Help DSJ realize his potential... What happened to that idea?

Sorry, but Russ is still just a brick tied to PG13's legs.
Maybe some day he will win a chip when he goes ring hunting as his athleticism declines or whatever.

Jkam31 · Post #945 » by **Jkam31** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:39 am

arkuo wrote:Ideally you get an Avery Bradley type to play PG alongside Luka. If Bradley is costly, then Donnie should just sign Patrick Beverly in the summer. He's a free agent.

Luka works best with a defensive PG who can shoot as well. What I dont see is why DSJ cant play that role? His defense is good and his shooting % are up this year. And he's on a cheap rookie deal for the next what , 4 years?

But if he himself wants out then there's not much we could do there.

Dallas should sign both Beverly and Brogdon both are elite defenders and great shooters. Have Luka/Barnes carry the load offensively

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Archx · Post #946 » by **Archx** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am

Jkam31 wrote:
arkuo wrote:Ideally you get an Avery Bradley type to play PG alongside Luka. If Bradley is costly, then Donnie should just sign Patrick Beverly in the summer. He's a free agent.

Luka works best with a defensive PG who can shoot as well. What I dont see is why DSJ cant play that role? His defense is good and his shooting % are up this year. And he's on a cheap rookie deal for the next what , 4 years?

But if he himself wants out then there's not much we could do there.

Dallas should sign both Beverly and Brogdon both are elite defenders and great shooters. Have Luka/Barnes carry the load offensively

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I actually like the idea of trading AG from ORL way more than getting any other guard for DSJ. Sure for Wesley but DSJ could get you more i think. But not Brogdon, i believe Bucks value him too much at this point.

DJ_3_Ball · Post #947 » by **DJ_3_Ball** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:15 pm

burek3 wrote:
DJ_3_Ball wrote:
Archx wrote:... problem is DSJ is a bad decision maker and ball simply stopped with him.

DSJ is, but he's also a 2nd year player at the PG position. It's just simply too early to pull the plug on him. I mean, this team isn't contending for a title this season, or next. Probably not until Golden State breaks up the band, so what were the Mavs really losing by being more patient with DSJ?

I don't remember anyone accusing Russell Westbrook of being a good decision maker in his first 3 years in the league either, but Russ (to some extent, anyways) started figuring things out (he's still not exactly a facilitator).

The bottom line on this is you can't teach someone to do the things Russ or DSJ do. That kind of rare, freakish athletic ability demands that you are much more patient with that player.

I also thought our "Top 5" coach in the league was suppose to be able to... I don't know... do some coaching? Help DSJ realize his potential... What happened to that idea?

Sorry, but Russ is still just a brick tied to PG13's legs.
Maybe some day he will win a chip when he goes ring hunting as his athleticism declines or whatever.

I'm no Russell Westbrook fan, but if you bought stock in Russell Westbrook in year 2, you'd be very happy with your ROI when you went to sell Russ stock in year 7. My point being, even if DSJ remains a vision-less, drive to the hoop at all costs & jack up shots left & right all night player, he still has so much athletic ability (and youth) that he can garner a much larger return in 2-3 years than he will now.

burek3 · Post #948 » by **burek3** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:24 pm

DJ_3_Ball wrote:
burek3 wrote:
DJ_3_Ball wrote:
DSJ is, but he's also a 2nd year player at the PG position. It's just simply too early to pull the plug on him. I mean, this team isn't contending for a title this season, or next. Probably not until Golden State breaks up the band, so what were the Mavs really losing by being more patient with DSJ?

I don't remember anyone accusing Russell Westbrook of being a good decision maker in his first 3 years in the league either, but Russ (to some extent, anyways) started figuring things out (he's still not exactly a facilitator).

The bottom line on this is you can't teach someone to do the things Russ or DSJ do. That kind of rare, freakish athletic ability demands that you are much more patient with that player.

I also thought our "Top 5" coach in the league was suppose to be able to... I don't know... do some coaching? Help DSJ realize his potential... What happened to that idea?

Sorry, but Russ is still just a brick tied to PG13's legs.
Maybe some day he will win a chip when he goes ring hunting as his athleticism declines or whatever.

I'm no Russell Westbrook fan, but if you bought stock in Russell Westbrook in year 2, you'd be very happy with your ROI when you went to sell Russ stock in year 7. My point being, even if DSJ remains a vision-less, drive to the hoop at all costs & jack up shots left & right all night player, he still has so much athletic ability (and youth) that he can garner a much larger return in 2-3 years than he will now.

If you take results into account the ROI plummets, because you're still a treadmill team.

DrPampiloni · Post #949 » by **DrPampiloni** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:51 pm

burek3 wrote:
If you take results into account the ROI plummets, because you're still a treadmill team.

As much as I don't like Russell Westbrook's style of play...

1) That's factually incorrect (he got at least to the playoffs after Durant left)

2) The point DJ_3_Ball is making is about market value, is that you can get much more in return by trading "year 7 Westbrick" than trading "year 2 Westbrick".

Problem is that Westbrook played with KD, which is a deadly shooter which plays well off-ball. Luka evidently needs to be ball-dominant to realize his full potential. So the analogy doesn't work properly.

burek3 · Post #950 » by **burek3** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:00 pm

DrPampiloni wrote:
burek3 wrote:If you take results into account the ROI plummets, because you're still a treadmill team.

As much as I don't like Russell Westbrook's style of play...

1) That's factually incorrect (he got at least to the playoffs after Durant left)

About 4 years ago, I wrote on some forum (wasn't on realGM at the time), that Russ will never ever eveeeeer win a chip as primary PG with biggest %USG on the team. I still stand by that.

Playoff exits barring Conference Finals = treadmill.

Besides, enough about him, it's very off topic.

DrPampiloni · Post #951 » by **DrPampiloni** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:14 pm

I think we totally agree on Westrbrook.

The point about "We are not selling DSJ at his peak market value" still stands. Nevertheless, as I wrote before, if he wants out that's a moot point.

DJ_3_Ball · Post #952 » by **DJ_3_Ball** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 pm

burek3 wrote:If you take results into account the ROI plummets, because you're still a treadmill team.

I agree, if you keep him. But, I was talking about if the Thunder had traded Russell Westbrook. The return they would of received in year 2 versus year 7 would of been much different.

DJ_3_Ball · Post #953 » by **DJ_3_Ball** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:02 pm

DrPampiloni wrote:I think we totally agree on Westrbrook.

The point about "We are not selling DSJ at his peak market value" still stands. Nevertheless, as I wrote before, if he wants out that's a moot point.

I disagree regrading the if he wants out, then we have to move him point. He's under contract. Sports teams make this mistake all the time. Especially on draft night. High profile player makes it very publicly known through his agent that if Team X selects him he will not sign with them. Kobe Bryant a perfect example. The New Jersey Nets wanted to draft him in 1996 with the 8th pick. Kobe's agent told them he wouldn't sign. They caved and took Kerry Kittles. The 76ers wanted to draft Kristaps Porzingis, but he wanted to play in New York (bet he wishes he had a do over on that one lol), so he wouldn't even workout for the Sixers. They caved and took Jahlil Okafor. It was rumored that Luka did not want to go to Sacramento, it was rumored his agent wouldn't provide medicals for the Kings. Same thing with Jaren Jackson Jr, and JJJ wouldn't work out for them either. Imo, taking Bagley was a mistake the Kings will regret for a long time.

If DSJ wants out, who cares? You tell him he's under contract. You put him in the lineup for his regular minutes, and you tell him if he pouts and acts like a child, then you wish him good luck when free agency comes around and his stat line reflects his poor attitude & play.

The Mavs hold all the cards here, not a 20 year old, 2nd year player. That's how the collective bargaining agreement works.

If they cave, it'll move the Mavs closer to an organization with the respect level of the Kings and not an organization with the respect level of the Spurs.

Post #954 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Dirk wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Didn't know where else to post this so figured I'd just drop it here. Well deserved to say the least. Some of his doncic calls have been incredible this season. I love his enthusiasm without totally flying off the handle.

He is really good. I was shocked when I noticed he was doing the World Cup. I've talked with him plenty on twitter. Really fun guy...

Extremely knowledgable. You can see he prepares well for games and the teams the Mavs face.

You know, I wish he had someone better than Harper next to him. Kind of grew tired of him and his takes... never really adds much. At least Frazier always entertains you with his rhymes.

By the way,

Luka w/ DSJ ON: usage 27.8%; FG% 45.4; TS% 57
Luka w/ DSJ OFF: usage 29%; FG% 41.5; TS% 55.8

While team is better with Luka running things, I was surprised that he shot better with DSJ on the floor with him.

By the way, why doesn't Frank play more. In a tank for Zion season, feels so weird when I see how many times he's inactive.

Yup i love how followill tries to incorporate his own research into the broadcast. Shows he's willing to learn. As for harper, I'll at least say I appreciate that he isn't a homer. That'd ruin the broadcast for me. Luckily don't have that with the mavs or knicks.

Re: Frank, putting spoiler tags since I ended up writing more than i expected lol:

Spoiler:

thr3ep01nte4 · Post #955 » by **thr3ep01nte4** » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:46 pm

Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe mentioned in the newest BS podcast that Luka is in consideration for third team All-NBA as a guard.

burek3 · Post #956 » by **burek3** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:48 am

thr3ep01nte4 wrote:Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe mentioned in the newest BS podcast that Luka is consideration for third team All-NBA as a guard.

Link for the ignorant, please?

Archx · Post #957 » by **Archx** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:38 am

When people say Luka has peaked at 19yo ...His quote after the SAS game.

"Every day I know the league more," Doncic said. "At the end of the day, it's just basketball."

And he didn't even go through NBA's strength & conditioning program properly. I mean it's just ridiculous how easy he can find open guys by driving to the rim or getting himself open. Only thing i wish is that he would take more mid range shots after the PnR play. He has a ton of space but instead he still tries to be a bit too unselfish.