#10 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[kendogg]

Edited my post above to lock in my tentative vote of Mourning.

[trex_8063]

I am for the last time going to present some comparisons by several aggregates, including various DVOR (defensive value over replacement) splits, as I had in prior threads.
Players already voted in highlighted in blue.

EDITS SINCE LAST TIME (READ!): I have added in some vague estimates for Mark Eaton and Artis Gilmore.
To estimate their year to year DRAPM, I've simply taken their DBPM * 0.75 (and made a conservative guess toward '72 and '73 Gilmore). I'm multiplying the DBPM by 0.75, because----with the exception of bigs like Kevin Garnett, and some years of Tim Duncan and Dikembe Mutombo---DBPM appears to OVER-estimate defensive impact [compared to DRAPM]. This is particularly true of defensive juggernauts who have no offensive game (like Ben Wallace and [presumably] Mark Eaton), because DBPM is calculated by figuring total BPM and subtracting the OBPM. This methodology may be underrating Artis Gilmore, fwiw (because he did have some offensive value). Although, as other posters have noted itt, his defensive impact is more difficult to see in his later years (after he'd slowed down), so maybe it comes out OK overall. ALL of Gilmore's best five seasons are his ABA years, fwiw.
The redundancy of listing both DBPM and DVOR for Eaton/Gilmore (because I'm basing DVOR on DBPM) is noted.

ADDITIONAL NOTES (read please):
*For anyone new to this, DVOR is NOT to be confused with DVORP (derived from bbref’s VORP figures). DVOR utilizes (where ever possible) DRAPM [available for ‘97 and after] and minutes played, with “replacement level” being defined as -0.75.
**For ‘94-’96, we have another plus/minus metric available in the form of rs-only APM. This figure is used for those seasons, along with guidance by BPM to estimate the offense:defense splits on the APM number.
***For seasons prior to ‘94, in previous threads I’d been using shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact (EI) defensive splits. However, anyone following this close will know by now that the domain on that site expired, so it is no longer available. I had recorded the numbers for Bill Russell and Hakeem’s pre-’94 seasons before the site went down, so I have them.

But this will prevent me from including other “old-timers” such as Wilt or Thurmond in these comparisons.

****For the pre-’94 seasons of David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Patrick Ewing, and Alonzo Mourning, I simply used (0.75 * DBPM) as an estimate. I didn’t use the full DBPM value, as I feel that can sometimes overstate things (relative to a typical DRAPM). That might be marginally short-changing them for those years, so bear that in mind.

*****In DVOR per game in best 5 years, it might not be the same five years as in the cumulative avg.

******Where DPOY shares [and All-D pts, for that matter] are concerned, also bear in mind that Robinson, Mutombo, and Hakeem were often in direct competition with each other, probably dragging ALL of their figures down in those categories compared to Ben Wallace (we really didn’t have another great defensive C whose prime overlapped with Ben’s).

*******Used the following year-by-year DRAPM estimates for Wilt Chamberlain's career to speculate on DVOR scores:
2
1
1
0
3
0
2.75
3.25
3.25
0.25
0
0.5
3.25
3.25

********Used the following year-by-year DRAPM estimates (guidance by DBPM) for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career to speculate on DVOR scores:
2.5
2.5
2.5
2.5
2.7
1.65
3
2.25
2.7
2.9
2
1.05
1.1
0.2
0.3
1
0.6
0.3
0.1
-0.2

*********All shorter [or longer] seasons (and associated metrics) have been pro-rated to 82-game schedule; figures do NOT include the '19 season for active players.


All-Defensive Honors “Points” (awarded 1.5 pts for each 1st team, 1.0 pts for each 2nd)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 13.5
Hakeem Olajuwon - 11.5
David Robinson - 10.0
Ben Wallace - 8.5
Dikembe Mutombo - 7.5
Dwight Howard - 7.0
*Artis Gilmore - 7.0 (*note that 6 of those points come in the ABA)
Mark Eaton - 6.5
Marcus Camby - 5.0
Tyson Chandler - 3.5
Wilt Chamberlain - 3.0 (*only awarded his last 5 seasons)
Patrick Ewing - 3.0
Alonzo Mourning - 3.0
Theo Ratliff - 2.0
Bill Russell - 1.5 (*only awarded his final season)
Marc Gasol - 1.0
Shawn Bradley - 0

DPOY Shares
Ben Wallace - 3.747
Dwight Howard - 3.242
Dikembe Mutombo - 2.146
Hakeem Olajuwon - 1.969
Alonzo Mourning - 1.334
David Robinson - 1.331
Marcus Camby - 1.331
Mark Eaton - 1.152
Tyson Chandler - 0.691
Marc Gasol - 0.375
Theo Ratliff - 0.225
Patrick Ewing - 0.105
Shawn Bradley - 0
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 0 (*not awarded the first 13 seasons of Kareem's career)
Artis Gilmore - 0 (*not awarded his first 11 seasons)
**not awarded during the careers of Russell and Wilt

DWS
Bill Russell - 143.9
Hakeem Olajuwon - 96.6
Wilt Chamberlain - 95.7
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 94.5
Patrick Ewing - 83.4
David Robinson - 82.9
Artis Gilmore - 74.6
Ben Wallace - 72.3
Dikembe Mutombo - 71.2
Dwight Howard - 70.4
Marcus Camby - 56.8
Alonzo Mourning - 50.5
Mark Eaton - 48.0
Tyson Chandler - 45.3
Marc Gasol - 35.3
Theo Ratliff - 32.4
Shawn Bradley - 32.2

DBPM
Ben Wallace: +5.5
Mark Eaton: +5.2
Marcus Camby: +4.6
David Robinson: +4.3
Hakeem Olajuwon: +3.8
Dikembe Mutombo: +3.6
Theo Ratliff: +3.4
Shawn Bradley: +3.4
Dwight Howard: +2.8
Marc Gasol: +2.8
Patrick Ewing: +2.5
Alonzo Mourning: +2.3
Tyson Chandler: +2.2
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +2.0 (*not available for his first four seasons)
Artis Gilmore: +1.7 (*not available his first two seasons)
**not available for Russell or Wilt’s careers

Individual rDRTG
David Robinson: -10.0
Ben Wallace: -9.4
Hakeem Olajuwon: -8.6
Dwight Howard: -7.9
Mark Eaton: -7.6
Patrick Ewing: -7.5
Dikembe Mutombo: -6.8
Marcus Camby: -6.4
Alonzo Mourning: -5.7
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: -5.2 (*not available his first four seasons)
Theo Ratliff: -4.6
Shawn Bradley: -4.0
Artis Gilmore: -3.7 (*not available his first two seasons)
Tyson Chandler: -3.3
Marc Gasol: -3.0
**not available for Russell or Wilt’s careers

Cumulative Career DVOR
Bill Russell - 181,196.05
Hakeem Olajuwon - 171,267.8
Dikembe Mutombo - 154.734.3
David Robinson - 151,777.8
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -141,937.6 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Patrick Ewing - 134,807.4
*Wilt Chamberlain - 123,779.0 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Mark Eaton - 117,538.4
Ben Wallace - 108,273.3
Artis Gilmore - 98,733.4
Alonzo Mourning - 91,008.1
Dwight Howard - 82,724.5
Shawn Bradley - 70,643.0
Theo Ratliff - 60,937.2
Marcus Camby - 60,812.6
Tyson Chandler - 56,786.6
Marc Gasol - 48,392.5

Avg DVOR per Season (full career)
Bill Russell - 13,938.2
David Robinson - 10,841.2
Mark Eaton - 10,685.3
Hakeem Olajuwon - 9,514.9
*Wilt Chamberlain - 8,841.4 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Dikembe Mutombo - 8,596.4
Patrick Ewing - 7,929.8
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 7,096.9 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Ben Wallace - 6,767.1
Alonzo Mourning - 6,107.9
Dwight Howard - 5,908.9
Shawn Bradley - 5,886.9
Artis Gilmore - 5,807.8
Marc Gasol - 4,839.2
Theo Ratliff - 3,808.6
Marcus Camby - 3,577.2
Tyson Chandler - 3,340.4

Avg DVOR per Season (Best 5 years)
Dikembe Mutombo - 18,417.6
Bill Russell - 16,994.7
Hakeem Olajuwon - 14,663.1
*Wilt Chamberlain - 14,494.95 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Mark Eaton - 13,840.3
David Robinson - 13,808.6
Alonzo Mourning - 12,185.9
Patrick Ewing - 12,052.4
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 11,913.0 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Ben Wallace - 11,727.7
Artis Gilmore - 10,141.3
Shawn Bradley - 9,933.7
Dwight Howard - 9,483.5
Marc Gasol - 8,021.3
Theo Ratliff - 7,910.7
Marcus Camby - 7,741.3
Tyson Chandler - 6,380.8

Avg DVOR Per Game (Best 5 years)
Dikembe Mutombo - 229.6
Bill Russell - 219.6
Hakeem Olajuwon - 184.2
*Wilt Chamberlain - 176.8 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
David Robinson - 176.4
Alonzo Mourning - 171.4
Mark Eaton - 170.9
Patrick Ewing - 160.9
Ben Wallace - 150.4
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 146.7 (*his score if using the estimates cited above)
Shawn Bradley - 141.5
Dwight Howard - 129.8
Artis Gilmore - 123.7
Marcus Camby - 113.5
Theo Ratliff - 112.1
Marc Gasol - 105.1
Tyson Chandler - 86.9

[trex_8063]

As implied earlier, I came into this section of the project thinking this spot was between Zo and Howard (had been leaning marginally toward Zo, personally). But now I feel as though I've [tentatively] narrowed it down to a decision between Mourning and Eaton (and I'm not sure I'm leaning notably in either direction). Hmm......will come to a decision before the deadline.....

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Moses Malone shot 43% vs Eaton teams. Sometimes Moses got a lot of free throws and sometimes Eaton got in foul trouble.
Hakeem shot 47% vs Eaton teams.
Kareem gets 17 points a game at 52% which is poor even for older Kareem.
Dantley scored 17 points a game at 47% which low for Dantley. He was an inside scorer, not a center and maybe it is Thurl Bailey holding Dantley down.

On the other hand, McHale, James Edwards, Kevin Willis and Duckworth get their numbers vs Eaton. Maybe it is Karl Malone not holding down Willis and McHale

I thought I would see what happened to the Jazz when Eaton was injured but it turns out Eaton only missed 9 games in his first 10 years.

I can't decide between Eaton, Dwight Howard and Mourning

My problem with Artis Gilmore is that I don't think he always tried to play good defense.

[trex_8063]

Ugh, this is really difficult to decide. I'm going to go over some kinda rambling summary thoughts and evaluations on Mark Eaton and Alonzo Mourning.

We'll start with a little scouting. I was just this morning watching a little bit of a Jazz/Sixers game from '88 and tiny bits of G4 and G5 of the '85 Jazz/Rockets series to scout Mark Eaton; then I watched a little of the 1997 G7 between Miami/New York to scout Alonzo Mourning. Some take-aways.....

Eaton -
Yes, his lateral mobility is poor (more so in the '88 game; his mobility in the '85 game was actually better than I was remembering/expecting). But he is stopping or changing every shot that comes near the rim (multiple blocks and multiple changed shots just in the 1st Q's of these games). Most of his blocks are kept in bounds, too (which is more valuable than the grand-standing swat out-of-bounds), because he's not soaring up into the air catching these shots near their apex with a savage swat. Most blocks he's barely leaving the ground, just simply THERE in front of the rim stuffing the ball back practically before it's even left the shooter's hand.

In the '88 game in particular he seems a little reluctant to come out and contest too far outside of what's now the "restricted area", though when he does it sure makes a difference and seems to catch people by surprise (there's one play where Barkley has curled around a screen with the ball near the top of the key and Eaton switches over to him, Barkley pulls up for a jumper just behind the FT-line and Eaton lunges out with hand up; Barkley has to change his mind mid-air [or Eaton likely would have blocked it] and tries a risky pass [almost throws it away]). In the games from the '85 series he's forced outside a little bit because the Rockets are intentionally playing Hakeem outside to draw him out of the paint (Eaton still had 10 blocks in G4!).

Eaton's awareness looks very good, though he's occasionally a split-second late on the rotation simply because he WAS slow [physically].

Eaton's defensive rebounding numbers aren't particularly special for a C (although somewhat a moot point vs Mourning: Zo avg 10.1 DRebs/100 poss with a 21.4% DREB%; Eaton avg 9.6 DRebs/100 with a 21.1% DREB%......so they're damn near equal). However, I note that he's very consistently boxing out (especially in the '88 game; possibly wiser by that point in his career), which is something I always look for defensively.

The other thing he's consistently doing is something 70sFan and I had discussed in prior thread about Ben Wallace (because Wallace almost NEVER did this): when off-ball, Eaton keeps his arms extended, hands out somewhere between hip-shoulder level. What that does is makes him take up more space (reducing the available passing angles to cutters), makes a shorter distance one needs to raise his arm to contest a shot, and also provides "feelers" (like antennae) to better anticipate an opponent moving into your space (which may help in denying post position or boxing out).

Mourning -
Mourning's pretty sharp hedging off the ball-handler on pnr's, and is quick/athletic enough to recover nicely.
He's a very aggressive low-post defender, and really very good at ball-denial.
His awareness looks pretty good too; a couple instances where he seemed a little lost or slow to recognize the play developing. But still pretty good.
Obviously he gets his share of blocks, too.
Criticisms [relative to Eaton] I would note:
*he doesn't box out as consistently, nor does he consistently have his arms out in the manner I've described for Eaton.
**He's a little jumpy/eager for the block (and thus bites on fakes). Likely as a result he has a career avg of 5.7 PF/100 poss (which is much more than some of the other centers we've looked at with similar size and/or athleticism [like Hakeem, Wallace, or Robinson]); it's not much more than Eaton had, however (Eaton's career avg was 5.6 PF/100), though for kinda different reasons in Eaton's case.


Both guys are behind Dwight Howard in awards/accolades/media recognition, for whatever that's worth, though are competitive vs each other [and everyone else outside of Dwight] in this regard (see my post #22 above).


Eaton holds the clear overall edge over Mourning in box-derived defensive metrics (again, see post #22), and looks more competitive vs any other available candidate.


Using the DBPM-based DRAPM estimates for Eaton, he's comfortably ahead of everyone in cumulative DVOR. I only used 0.75 * DBPM, so hopefully it hasn't over-estimated him. But even if we take 1,500 pts off of each and every season of Eaton's, he'd still be leading all remaining candidates, with the possible exception of Artis Gilmore (who I may have under-estimated, as indicated in fine print of post #22).
But if Gilmore were ahead, it would at least still be close, and that's with Gilmore playing 17 seasons to Eaton's 11. Eaton would still have a VERY comfortable lead in avg DVOR per season, even if we took the 1,500 pts off of each year. His DVOR per season in his best 5 years would still be the best of everyone left, too, even if we made the 1,500 deduction (per game in best 5 years would be behind only Mourning).

fwiw, in Elgee's WOWYR, Eaton has a career +3.0 value; and that's while being utterly abysmal offensively (career -3.7 OBPM, and he's one of few guys who actually has a NEGATIVE career OWS!).
Mourning career WOWYR is +3.6 (significantly better offensive player, obviously).

Mourning leaves some excellent impressions when looking at team defenses.....
The Hornets defense didn't improve all that much when he arrived as a rookie, though they did improve to a -2.2 rDRTG by his third season. But more impressive is that they fell thru the floor (to a +4.2 rDRTG--->a +6.4 shift) when he left the next year.
The Miami Heat defense improved by -5.4 when he arrived, and peaked at a stellar -6.1 rDRTG in his second season. One strike against him is that they didn't appear to feel the loss too much when he missed most of '01 (though a bit more effect is seen when he missed ALL of '03).

But where Eaton is concerned, the Utah Jazz rDRTG jumped by -4.4 with his arrival in '83.
Two years later they were an elite defense.
They peaked as a fantastic -6.3 rDRTG, and had THREE other seasons where they were -4.5 rDRTG or better.
Overall, they had FOUR #1 defenses during Eaton's time there, plus two other top-5 defenses, and FOUR other top-7 defenses.

So Eaton has a good case as the top of the remaining heap in what we have for impact indicators.


I fully acknowledge that Eaton would be rendered largely obsolete in today's 3pt space n' pace era (whereas Mourning would still be elite). However, this trend is relatively recent in NBA history. The defensive 3-second rule didn't go into effect until 2002; and this huge usage of the 3pt line is something that really has only been the last 6-10 years in the making.
So thru most of the NBA's history, Eaton would be a defensive giant.


Damn, idk, this is tough......

[70sFan]

Great post trex, I'm leaning towards Big Mark to be honest. He's one of the slowest players I've ever seen, but who cares when he knew how to use his size better than anyone on defense. He contested everything in the paint by simply raising his arms. He was also a wall defensively - look at this clip how Jordan (great finisher and strong guard) bounced off him like nothing, Eaton didn't get moved at all:

Watch on YouTube

People treat him like a one-trick pony, but every single thing I've seen tells me that he was extremely impactfull. My eye-test also is very positive for him.

My last vote in this project: Mark Eaton

[trex_8063]

Thru post #26:

Alonzo Mourning - 3 (kendogg, Dr Positivity, KnickFan33)
Dwight Howard - 3 (pandrade83, SkyHookFTW, Jaivl)
Mark Eaton - 2 (penbeast0, 70sFan)
Bill Walton - 1 (Johnny Firpo)

I'm trying to decide between Mourning and Eaton personally.
Roughly 6-8 hours until the deadline.


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[penbeast0]

I wonder, could Mark put the ball on the floor and go around Georghe Muresan (THE slowest player I ever saw)? I've seen Felton Spencer do it and he's not exactly an athletic or skilled NBA center. I'd love to see them try.

[HurricaneKid]

Great post trex, I'm leaning towards Big Mark to be honest. He's one of the slowest players I've ever seen, but who cares when he knew how to use his size better than anyone on defense. He contested everything in the paint by simply raising his arms. He was also a wall defensively - look at this clip how Jordan (great finisher and strong guard) bounced off him like nothing, Eaton didn't get moved at all:

Watch on YouTube

People treat him like a one-trick pony, but every single thing I've seen tells me that he was extremely impactfull. My eye-test also is very positive for him.

My last vote in this project: Mark Eaton

Mark Eaton was a really good defender in his time. But Siberian molasses in February moves faster than he did. He wouldn't make a roster in the current game. And he was comfortably behind several Cs of his time.

Meanwhile, Dwight has perhaps the best accolades of any modern player.

I mean I hate Dwight but keeping him off this list is yet another strike against THE LIST, not him.

Its Dwight and I don't see it being all that close.

Sent from my VS995 using RealGM mobile app

[iggymcfrack]

Looked at some of the defenses Eaton led. God damn!

Year before arrival: 20th out of 23 in DRtg
_________________________________________
Rookie season averaging 19 MPG: 12th out of 23 in DRtg
Second season averaging 26 MPG: 12th out of 23 in DRtg
Age 28 season averaging 34 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 29 season averaging 32 MPG: 3rd out of 23 in DRtg
Age 30 season averaging 32 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 31 season averaging 33 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 32 season averaging 36 MPG: 1st out of 25 in DRtg
Age 33 season averaging 28 MPG: 5th out of 25 in DRtg
Age 34 season averaging 32 MPG: 6th out of 27 in DRtg
Age 35 season averaging 27 MPG: 7th out of 27 in DRtg
Final season averaging 17 MPG: 13th out of 27 in DRtg
_________________________________________
Year after retirement: 7th out of 27 in DRtg

Now obviously, there were other good defenders on the team and the Jazz were still a pretty good defense throughout the 90s after he left, but still, that run of 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st in his prime is out of this world. Considering that both Howard and Mourning lacked longevity, I think a 5 year run like that is pretty hard to touch. I'm gonna have to vote for Mark Eaton.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not sure if it's fair to penalize Eaton for being slow - maybe he wouldn't be good today, but the vast majority of NBA history he would be.

As for between Howard and Mourning - I've always thought Howard was better. While Howard doesn't block shots as well, seemingly to me he had better mobility and could switch better than Zo - Howard also carried really awesome defenses without any great defenders - not sure if Zo ever did that. Howard also beat Mourning comfortably on glass - actually, I don't have much doubt that Howard was a better defender.

I haven't read the last page, but I need to sleep so I might miss the deadline.

vote goes to Dwight Howard

I wish I had some more time to look into Mark Eaton because I do think he might be getting stereotyped a bit. Yes, he was slow, but there is evidence to suggest his slowness was not much of a hindrance - it's not like it was okay to be slow back when he played.

[colts19]

Walton gets my vote.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Looked at some of the defenses Eaton led. God damn!

Year before arrival: 20th out of 23 in DRtg
_________________________________________
Rookie season averaging 19 MPG: 12th out of 23 in DRtg
Second season averaging 26 MPG: 12th out of 23 in DRtg
Age 28 season averaging 34 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 29 season averaging 32 MPG: 3rd out of 23 in DRtg
Age 30 season averaging 32 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 31 season averaging 33 MPG: 1st out of 23 in DRtg
Age 32 season averaging 36 MPG: 1st out of 25 in DRtg
Age 33 season averaging 28 MPG: 5th out of 25 in DRtg
Age 34 season averaging 32 MPG: 6th out of 27 in DRtg
Age 35 season averaging 27 MPG: 7th out of 27 in DRtg
Final season averaging 17 MPG: 13th out of 27 in DRtg
_________________________________________
Year after retirement: 7th out of 27 in DRtg

Now obviously, there were other good defenders on the team and the Jazz were still a pretty good defense throughout the 90s after he left, but still, that run of 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st in his prime is out of this world. Considering that both Howard and Mourning lacked longevity, I think a 5 year run like that is pretty hard to touch. I'm gonna have to vote for Mark Eaton.

You might think well this is Jerry Sloan's system creating the good defense, but a lot of those years are under coach Frank Layden

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Mark Eaton
I have a lot of doubts about this vote but it might be correct.
Eaton's lack of speed looks bad. Because of his lack of speed he does not overplay the ball and go from one side of the court to the other side of the court. I like rotating defenses with mobile swarming defenders that arguably overplay the ball but I am making an exception for Eaton.

Eaton would not be good in a pick and roll at the 3 point line. Draymond Green as a small ball center in a pick at the 3 point line with Curry would be a big problem for Eaton. I like the hypothetical time travel mental experiments but perhaps the majority of people at RealGM dislike the hypothetical time travel. At other points in this project people thought players should be evaluated based on their impact in their era. In Eaton's era there was no need to defend 3 point shooters coming off picks. I am giving Eaton a pass for my belief that he can't defend modern 3 point ball.

[trex_8063]

Mark Eaton was a really good defender in his time. But Siberian molasses in February moves faster than he did. He wouldn't make a roster in the current game.

And in the 72-year history of the NBA/BAA, how one would do in the last ~1 decade is all that matters. Is that it?

And he was comfortably behind several Cs of his time.

This is flatly false [demonstrably so] within the context of a defense-only discussion (which is what this project is).

Meanwhile, Dwight has perhaps the best accolades of any modern player.

To each his own, I guess, but personally I find the list of media favorites the least reliable of all means.

I mean I hate Dwight but keeping him off this list is yet another strike against THE LIST, not him.

Would you care to reply to any of the supportive arguments which have been provided for Mourning or Eaton? Or answer to any of the criticisms/concerns regarding Howard?

[LA Bird]

Eaton for his era had amazing impact but probably be exposed if he played now like a rich man's Hibbert. So should he get punished for only being this level in an era with less mobility and spacing?

Hibbert wasn't really exposed though - he just fizzled out for whatever reason during the middle of a season and never recovered. The league doesn't evolve quick enough to turn a deserving All Star (which Hibbert was) into a scrub over a span of just 3 months. The 13/14 Pacers had some of the most stifling interior defenses in modern league history before his mental collapse and I don't see why an Eaton-anchored defense couldn't have done the same in those same years. Besides, Howard is only 1 year older than Hibbert and he hasn't really done anything notable defensively in the pace and space era either.

I would also say a mobility comparison between Eaton and the others is not very helpful due to the difference in size and length. Eaton is 7 inches taller than both Howard and Mourning so he is obviously going to be slower but he can still cover just as much space (if not more) with his outstretched arms. The size-mobility tradeoff is not necessarily a disadvantage either since Eaton's sheer mass also makes him a better low post defender against other centers, as can be seen below in ElGee's man defense graph:


(Not sure why 09~11 Howard isn't in there but he is around -1.8 points per 36, -2.4% TS by my calculations)

Along with the new information in trex_8063's statistical comparison, I will cast my vote to Mark Eaton

[Samurai]

Voting for 5-time All Defensive team member Mark Eaton. I understand that some question his effectiveness if he were time-machined to a later era, yet we rarely if ever time-machine players in the opposite direction. Since I have stuck to my principle of not believing in actual time-machines thus far or engaging in science fiction debates, I will continue to do so with this vote. I have been going back and forth between Eaton and Dwight Howard here. Ended up going with Eaton because I think he may have been just a hair more impressive in his own era than Dwight in his. But it is very close IMO and certainly wouldn't argue with anyone supporting Dwight.

[HurricaneKid]

Mark Eaton was a really good defender in his time. But Siberian molasses in February moves faster than he did. He wouldn't make a roster in the current game.

And in the 72-year history of the NBA/BAA, how one would do in the last ~1 decade is all that matters. Is that it?

And he was comfortably behind several Cs of his time.

This is flatly false [demonstrably so] within the context of a defense-only discussion (which is what this project is).

Meanwhile, Dwight has perhaps the best accolades of any modern player.

To each his own, I guess, but personally I find the list of media favorites the least reliable of all means.

I mean I hate Dwight but keeping him off this list is yet another strike against THE LIST, not him.

Would you care to reply to any of the supportive arguments which have been provided for Mourning or Eaton? Or answer to any of the criticisms/concerns regarding Howard?

Probably not no. But the game has been effectively solved to maximize scoring opportunities. Even if the league allowed more physical play and the like I find it completely unlikely that someone as slow as Eaton could make his mark knowing what we know. And I find it problematic that he seems likely to find his way into the top 10 while the big who ushered in modern 4 out basketball not make the list.

Eaton played from 83-92 almost perfectly overlapping both Ewing and Dream. Since those two are already in we seem to be deciding between the 3rd best defensive C of that era and the best defensive big in the last 11 years.

I love Zo but I think he is clearly behind D12. I do think he would be more suited to today's game than most of his peers as his defensive flexibility was better but I would probably put him in at 11.

I'm no young whippersnapper. I'm a grizzled vet who saw all these guys.

I'm frustrated by this entire escapade because we continue to pick guys who played in defensive eras even when they were far from the best of their time rather than reward lofty peaks and achievement in offensive eras. With Eaton I think that's exactly what is happening.

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[SkyHookFTW]

I would like to change my vote. I was on the fence with Howard and Eaton but Eaton's impact is almost impossible to ignore here. My vote will go to Mark Eaton.

[Samurai]

Voting for 5-time All Defensive team member Mark Eaton. I understand that some question his effectiveness if he were time-machined to a later era, yet we rarely if ever time-machine players in the opposite direction. Since I have stuck to my principle of not believing in actual time-machines thus far or engaging in science fiction debates, I will continue to do so with this vote. I have been going back and forth between Eaton and Dwight Howard here. Ended up going with Eaton because I think he may have been just a hair more impressive in his own era than Dwight in his. But it is very close IMO and certainly wouldn't argue with anyone supporting Dwight.